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Couldn't defeat the Ultramarines.

Even the Word Bearers couldn't do it. Even after they had complete element of surprise!

And Gully went missing! And their ships were disabled!

Gully hops back onboard a ship, straps on a helmet, barks a few orders and the battle is won.

We can argue points in the fluff till the end of time.

There is more evidence in favor of the Ultramarines being the greatest than any other legion or chapter.

It's just a game. If you don't like Ultramarines thats fine. But don't go claiming that everything is false because your marines aren't awesome and blue.

DeffDred wrote:Couldn't defeat the Ultramarines.

Even the Word Bearers couldn't do it. Even after they had complete element of surprise!

And Gully went missing! And their ships were disabled!

Gully hops back onboard a ship, straps on a helmet, barks a few orders and the battle is won.

Haven't read that HH book yet admittedly so I can't comment too much, though from your description it sounds like a whole lot of "because I said so" plot armor

We can argue points in the fluff till the end of time.

There is more evidence in favor of the Ultramarines being the greatest than any other legion or chapter.

Which again, as above, boils largely down to "because I said so" plot armor, which, people often dislike, hence the hate for Ultramarines.

It's just a game. If you don't like Ultramarines thats fine. But don't go claiming that everything is false because your marines aren't awesome and blue.

I'm not claiming it's false, I'm pointing out issues with the fluff that I've seen or know of and why it's either ridiculous (and thus, why people dislike it) or why it's over-exaggerated given the extenuating circumstances. I also don't play a loyalist marine army of any stripe so I've really got no stake in butthurt from that perspective other than disliking poor quality writing.

This really is just argument for the sake of argument at this point.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:This really is just argument for the sake of argument at this point.

It really is :\

Xendarc wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:This really is just argument for the sake of argument at this point.

It really is :\

Lets be honest, we all knew it would end up like this at some point.

I think Ultramarines are pretty cool. I like their fluff and pretty much everything else about them. I enjoyed all the Ultramarine books and wish their were more.
Honestly if someone actually took the time to paint something around hear i would have nothing but praise for their army no matter what chapter or faction.

Not that this helps the Ultramar camp, but let's get some details right.

By the most current fluff and BL, the UM ruled a 500 planet empire: called the 500 Worlds of Ultramar. After the Codex, most of these worlds were split up to sucessor chapters. Some (White Consuls, Black Consuls, Iron Snakes) where given more than one world to be stewards over. Many still send their captains and sergeants to Maccrage to train (we know this from the Word Bearer Novels), and often members of Calgar's massive Honour Guard travel the 500 worlds, acting as heralds and advisors to other Chapters and Forces.

By current fluff, well over 20 chapters have answered Calgar's calls for UM sucessors to fight along side him, and he has answered at least another 5's pleas for aid (clearly some tight bonds among the old Legion). According to the BRB, there should be at least 400! sucessors chapters to the UM.

Calgar does not preach a strict adhereance to the Codex (that's Cato, and considered who he is based after, he is an almost perfectly written character). In fact he added a chapter called 'Tyrannic War Veterans" and sees the Codex as a living breathing (editable) document.

Ardis, Ventris, and Agemman are all captains we know quite a bit about, and they are hardly arrogant, or unfeeling.

The Senate of Ultramar is a hotbed of arguements and debate (again, clearly not all "toe the line, strict Codex lovers), and only one Captain is portrayed as a rabid and strict codex supporter (Cato) and that's the point.

Bash on the UM all you want, but by the Throne, at least get your details right.

BTW: The entire scene between Cry-baby and RG in TFH, is one of the most epic in any book the BL has written (thanks ADB).

ULTRAMARINES ARE AWESOME!!!!!! They invented the freaking codex astartes! They are not smurfs! My top spess mahrine chapters are the following
1 Space Wolves (awesomeness incarnate)
2 Ultramarines
3 Raven Guard
4 Dark Angels
5 Imperial Fists
Courage and Honor, man!

Wow! A Vlka Fenryka player ranking DA high. Don't let that spread around the Aett.

Vaktathi wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:[

Abaddon from the Black Legion would like to have a word with you.

I'm sure *he* would, but the Black Legion aren't held up as "the best" Legion by the codex, just the most...inclusive if you will

Well maybe not the best legion, which granted is what you said, but he is the chosen of Choas and has been granted favour from all four gods and his predecesor for this talent was Horus, who was also the primarch for The Black Legion, although they were called Lunur Wolves back in the day. Although its not explicably stated they are the best by use of words they sure hint at it within the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:Also, I don't hear any Flesh Tearers or other Blood Angels successor chapter players screaming that the Blood Angles Codex is all about Blood Angels, even though they use the same codex for their army.......

Big difference, Flesh Tearers, Angels Sanguine, etc, etc are all successor chapters whoose gene seed come from Sanguinious. They used to be Blood Angels themselves before the Codex Astartes came about. For all intents and purposes they pretty much are Blood Angels.

However Salamanders, Raven Guard, etc, etc are all first founding chapters who have nothing to do with Ultramarines whatsoever. They were their own unique legions before the Horus Heresy occured.

a lot of people seem to get annoyed at the fact codex space marines has too much ultramine stuff in it, but it dose say in the codex that it is primarily to represent an ultramarines force but can be used for other codex chapters. if any ones bothered ill look up the page number when i get home

goundry wrote:a lot of people seem to get annoyed at the fact codex space marines has too much ultramine stuff in it, but it dose say in the codex that it is primarily to represent an ultramarines force but can be used for other codex chapters. if any ones bothered ill look up the page number when i get home

I think thats part of the problem though. A lot of players don't like the fact that their first founding chapter takes a back seat in the new codex when the codex was redone in 2008. They feel that they are taking more of a back seat in this codex than what they did in the previous codex from 2004.

I had a discussion with someone else in another thread who thought that Blood Angels should be rolled back into Codex: Space Marines with only Dante & Death Company in it. I told him if that happened I would quit. Another poster then questioned me over it and accused me of "rage quiting" . I had to explain to him that of course I would quit in that circumstance because half the stuff I bought would be invalidated by such a move, i.e. Baal Predators, Furioso Dreadnoughts, etc, etc. Anyway, my point is, we have people who want to re-roll chapters back into Codex Space Marines when some people consider Codex Space Marines isn't fully capable of representing the other chapters that it is supposed to cover as it is. The person who said this was basically suggesting that Blood Angels should take a back seat in the Space Marine codex, which of course isn't going to fly now considering all the stuff they have released for Blood Angels now.

I think what they need to do is just release a large Space Marine codex and just go into what each chapter should have or take. They can have a basic section that all chapters can have access to and then go through the individual chapters and what they get that is different. At this point its the only thing that is going to work.

No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.

Frankly, I'd just like all the Codices to come out at the same time as a new edition does. I'm pretty sure people will still buy new models if they're released at a different time from the Codex for them.

I used to think that Ultramarines were kinda boring and rather ugly. No special animosity there, they just weren't my thing. However, 5th ed codex really did all it could to make me hate the little tossers. Exaltation of the awesomeness of the Ultramarines just went totally overboard, and it did it in a wy that mede other marines to look bad. Let's have an example, an acteal quote:

"Indeed, it is said that each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetime's service than a whole company of Space Marines from any other Chapter..."

Let's ponder that for a moment. So each individua in UM Honour Guard has gotten more commendations in their lifetime of couple of centuries that entire Deathwing* in their service of ten millenia!

(* or Blood Angels 1st company, or Imperial Fists 1st company, or any company from any chapter.)

Anyone with a two working braincells can see how absurdly ludicrous claim that is, and how it tries to exalt Ultras beyond any reason and proportion over other Marines.
Of course, it gives me an mental imagine of Ultramarines being pompous asshats that give their warriors medals and commendations by a cheelbarrow, and then proceed to pat eachothers in the back and tell how awesome and excellent they all are.

Now, it is kinda unfair to fault Ultras for having Mat Ward's atrocious fluff inflicted upon them, but it is hard to ignore. I mean I used to actually like Grey Knights!


However, there's one thing about Ultramarines that I realised a while ago, that makes me actually like them more. It is their blatant hypocrisy. Their holy tome is the Codex Astartes, main point of which was to disperse the power of the Space marine Legions, so that no single individual would have too much power. While they keep pushing this doctrine to others, they themselves lord over a powerfull stellar empire, and have number of successor chapters in their beck and call.
Now, I'm not sure if this is intentional on GWs part, but in any case it exactly the kind of thing that is very fitting to the grimdark 40K universe, and helps to give the boyscout-like Ultras some much needed sinister undertones.

Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.

We do I love it and if thy rolled my codex in i would be very angry.


Look at Fantasy this isn't necessary what it does do though is allow them to sell a lot of the same kits to people which ease more than just sales.

Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.

Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.

If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).

Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.

If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.

However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.

In what sense? When comparing to other chapters like Salamanders and White Scars? Or when comparing to other armies like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?

Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.

I play Dark Angels.....currently I do not feel lucky, most of the stuff in the C:SM have better prices, aside from my Deathwing, and I suppose to an extant Ravenwing.


EDIT: But when the new codex comes out I hope I will feel lucky.

DarthOvious wrote:

Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.

Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.

No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.

DarthOvious wrote:

If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).

Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.

Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).

If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.

Ignatius wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.

Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.

No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.

DarthOvious wrote:

If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).

Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.

Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).

If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.

They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.

Like I said above you can't suddenly take away armies. I agree with you. If GW didn't want this many marine codecies they shouldn't have made so many. This is a one way street.

DarthOvious wrote:

However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.

In what sense? When comparing to other chapters like Salamanders and White Scars? Or when comparing to other armies like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?

I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.

All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.

Ignatius wrote:
No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.

OK.

Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).

Agreed

Like I said above you can't suddenly take away armies. I agree with you. If GW didn't want this many marine codecies they shouldn't have made so many. This is a one way street.

Agreed

I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.

All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.

I understand and in a sense I am lucky. My choice of Blood Angels involved me walking into a store back in 3rd edition and asking an employee on help with the armies. When I started playing it was with a group of friends and we had been playing a different game before that which got cancelled essentially and the decision was made that we would switch to 40k. The employee at GW asked me what kind of army I wanted (playing style) and I told him close combat. He suggested Blood Angels to me. I bought the codex and then I started collecting Blood Angels. Now on one hand it could be said that if Blood Angels weren't available at that time I could have chosen another army. However I fell in love with the Blood Angels in a way that I wouldn't with any other army. Their fluuf was just amazing in my eyes.

For a long time Blood Angels remained my only army for 40k. Meanwhile, during the same time, for Fantasy I had bought 3 different armies, all of them I love fluffwise. Its only been recently that I have started collecting Grey Knights and thats mostly because I love the models and think they look awesome. I also love the way they play, not in a cheese sense but just for the playability sense of them. I just love the look of two force falcions on a Grey Knight in power armour and the painting scheme I have for them I think is brilliant, incredibly simple but I love it. I just paint them with a black basecoat and then use Necron Compound and dry brush over them. Like I said, incredibly simple but I think its such a good look for them.

I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.

Ignatius wrote:

I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.

All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.

To play devil's advocate, if you are into WWI, WWII, Vietnam-area-styled soldiers, you have gazillions of games out there. From fairly true historical (FoW perhaps being the most reknowned) to the wyrd (Dust Warfare) to approximately ten million WWII table-top simulations.

If you want to play Space Marines, you are essentially stuck with 40K.

Swiftblade wrote:However, Garahm McNeil wrote some pretty good Ultramarine books that depict the Ultramarines as much more human and likable characters. If you ever want to defend the Ultramarines, read those books.

QFT. I'm halfway through his Ultramarines series, and it's pretty fething awesome.

OT - They're popular to hate because they're supposed to be "perfect". That's really the only reason for it.

Zweischneid wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.

All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.

To play devil's advocate, if you are into WWI, WWII, Vietnam-area-styled soldiers, you have gazillions of games out there. From fairly true historical (FoW perhaps being the most reknowned) to the wyrd (Dust Warfare) to approximately ten million WWII table-top simulations.

If you want to play Space Marines, you are essentially stuck with 40K.

I am a huge Military History buff. I also love 40k. So I play historical armies in 40k

No but seriously I like to play with those kinds of armies in a 40k setting. It looses some of its meaning to me if it was in a historical context (perplexing I know) as opposed to humanity's survival mumbo jumbo.

I get it though. Beggers can't be choosers. I'm not arguing for more Imperial Guard codecies, I'm just throwing points into the discussion of multiple codecies.

And now I'm talking in circles so I'll stop.

Crimson wrote:I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.

As long as everything was still there then I wouldn't mind. So the following would need to be retained.

1) Characters (Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinor, Tycho, Lemartes, Corbulo, etc, etc)

2) Death Company

3) Sanguinary Guard

4) Furioso/Librarian/Death Company Dreadnoughts

5) Stormraven (In fact, other marines chapters would probably get access to this, so they could stick it in the joint section of the codex).

6) Baal Predators

7) Sanguinary Priests

8) Fluff section

I might have missed a couple of things since this is off the top of my head, but as long as they were there then I wouldn't be too annoyed.

I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process? I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much. Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine? Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process?

So are half the chapters in existence, why is the original gutted chapter still so much better than all the others (including those that split from the original legion and were initially led by former Legion captains and composed of Legion marines) when they should just be the same dudes with a different name?

I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much.

Do the Ultramarines *really* do so much more, or are their exploits just featured more?

Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine?

Indeed, why does being first matter when we're talking about a span of a couple years in a game that takes place 10,000 years (twice current recorded human history) later

Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?

Usually because they wonder by the BA's aren't just folded into C:SM as they share 80%+ of all their units, statlines, vehicles, wargear, etc.

DarthOvious wrote:

Crimson wrote:I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.

As long as everything was still there then I wouldn't mind. So the following would need to be retained.

1) Characters (Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinor, Tycho, Lemartes, Corbulo, etc, etc)

2) Death Company

3) Sanguinary Guard

4) Furioso/Librarian/Death Company Dreadnoughts

5) Stormraven (In fact, other marines chapters would probably get access to this, so they could stick it in the joint section of the codex).

6) Baal Predators

7) Sanguinary Priests

8) Fluff section

I might have missed a couple of things since this is off the top of my head, but as long as they were there then I wouldn't be too annoyed.

You missed alternative FOC placement for certain units, but overall I reckon that you could fit that on two or three pages. Not a huge amount of room for fluff, of course, but spread the fluff more evenly among the chapters in the core fluff section, and you should be OK.

As I posted in one of the "why does everyone hate ultra's" threads from way back.

I dislike ultramarines because they were complete and utter *bleeps* to my favorite legion -> Alpha legion, with Guilleman constantly saying to alpharius "your legion sucks because you haven't got as many victories as my legion" which is not fair because the alpha legion had only been prodding buttock for a fraction of the time, even though Alpharius was the one who managed to halt Horus' armarda, in small 1/2 man fighters held together by duct tape, then get onto horus' bridge-where Horus has realisation etc etc- a feat which I would have liked to see Guilleman do.