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Yes, that is quite dumb, though I think it suffers more from the fact that the Necrons have gone from a mindless, consume the universe to feed the C'tan, to a much more fleshed out race, than anything else. Old Necrons, it is rediculously dumb. New Necrons, meh, it isn't that bad.


My main problem with the Ultramarines is this. I find their fluff boring, and think they need some sort of conflict to spice things up. (see my previous post.) I also think that they look REALLY bad on the table top, unless they are done right. I love when I see an Ultramarines army that looks REALLY good. It looks like it has been through hell and come out on top. The Blues are both rich, and subdued at the same time. Most of the time, though, it seems like they are trying to go for the 'eavy Metal idea of what the Utramarines should look like, which I don't like. The blue is too bright, and they just look really lame.

Hell, starting out in Spacemarine, I was kind of sad that I was playing as an Ultramarine, but after about five minutes, I actually enjoyed it. They looked cool, they acted really awesomely, and quite frankly, I loved every minute of it. Then I looked at the "Painting Space Marines" book again and remembered why I do not like the Ultramarines. Really, I find that book to be a giant waste of money unless you are doing Ultramarines, but even then, I dislike what they do to the Ultramarines. They are just too clean.


Fluff wise, they are also too clean. They need something that gives them a possibility to fall to chaos. DA have the schism, BA have the Rage and Thirst, Templars have their non codex organization and numbers, the rest of the codex factions have something that gives them flavor. The Ultramarines, just seem like tofu cubes. Flavorless. The need the seaweed, chives, and broth of flaws, mistakes, and distrust to turn them into the enjoyable miso soup that they could be. (yes, I am hungry, so what?)

LOLwut?

In 2nd Edition it was called Codex: Ultramarines. It was changed to the more generic Codex: Space Marines in 3rd edition because new players were getting confused as to which codex was for "regular" Space Marines. But the painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The majority of Special Characters has always been Ultramarines. In 4th, nearly all of the art was Ultras, and the paint guides were called "Painting Ultramarines". When was this magical, imaginary time when the other chapters weren't "honorable mentions"? Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines.

What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?

Stupid bias. That's why, lol.

But I like the Blood Angels' color scheme better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:LOLwut?
.

What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?

Blood Angels: Attempted Codex, but dealing with a major flaw. Also, tech kept from the Mechanicus.
Dark Angels: Non codex, use different tactics. Also, they are very secretive.
Space Wolves: Very non codex. Unable to have successor chapters. They have over 1k marines, but they are divided into 10 companies.
Black Templars: Completely ignore the codex. They have over 1k marines, and use a completely different organization.

The Ultramarines are faulted for this because most people prefer the other chapters with more fluff, such as the Ravenguard, the White Scars, the Salamanders. Then they pick up the codex, or a painting book like "how to paint space marines" and it is mainly about the Ultras, which are the most boring chapter.

See, stupid bias, lol.


You give the other chapters the green light for having their own codex books because they represent that chapter's style of fighting. Codex: Space Marines details the way of fighting of the Ultramarines. You could even say they wrote the book on it.

The Ultramarines fluff is just fine. In the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger, "qweet whining". The book is Codex Ultramarines. If you decided to like one of the less prestigious chapters, you accept that they don't get as much attention. But stop blaming the Ultramarines for being the stars of theiw own book.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:LOLwut?

In 2nd Edition it was called Codex: Ultramarines. It was changed to the more generic Codex: Space Marines in 3rd edition because new players were getting confused as to which codex was for "regular" Space Marines. But the painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The majority of Special Characters has always been Ultramarines. In 4th, nearly all of the art was Ultras, and the paint guides were called "Painting Ultramarines". When was this magical, imaginary time when the other chapters weren't "honorable mentions"? Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines.

What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?

Stupid bias. That's why, lol.

I don't have any of my Codexes here, but again, as I recall, while Ultramarines were fairly prominent in the 3rd edition codex (painting guides, multiple special characters, etc), their place in the fluff was not nearly as all-consuming. Granted, the third edition codex had far less fluff in general than other codecies, but I seem to recall maybe two bits that focused solely on Ultramarines and then four or five bits about various other Chapters. The painting guide and a significant number of photographs may have been of Ultramarines, but other Chapters were featured in many pictures. There was none of this "All Space Marines wants to be Ultramarines, but not all can be, and they all revere Roboute Guilliman." I admittedly don't remember the 4th edition codex very well, but it did have those customization rules so you could make heavily divergent Chapters.

If the Codex was called Codex: Ultramarines, then the intense focus on the Ultramarines would be justified, but as it is, it's Codex: Space Marines, but focuses almost exclusively on the Ultramarines. It's also the way it's presented; the fluff is written in such a way as to portray the Ultramarines as vastly superior to all other Chapters, even prominent and accomplished founding chapters like the Salamanders and the Imperial Fists.

This is all to say, while Ultramarines were prominent in the 3rd and 4th edition Codexes, it seems to have been cranked to 11 in the current one. It'd be perfectly OK for Ultramarines to have their own codex, but it should be called Codex: Ultramarines. In fact, they had that in 3rd edition to go along with the generic Space Marine Codex.

But really, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I don't care, never really cared. I played Minotaurs when I played Space Marines, and from 3rd edition, which is when I started 40K, up until the Badab War book recently, there was pretty much zero information published about them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote: In the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger, "qweet whining". The book is Codex Ultramarines. If you decided to like one of the less prestigious chapters, you accept that they don't get as much attention. But stop blaming the Ultramarines for being the stars of theiw own book.

Seriously. Its people who go out of their way to hate other armies for perceived slights against their good taste that make me wish I had picked up the bass guitar instead of warhammer back in the day.

I told you why it isn't called Codex: Ultramarines anymore. You can accept this, or you can shake your little fists and scream to the skies for vengeance against imaginary injustice.

The book will still be, always have been, and always will be, about the Ultramarines first and foremost no matter how you feel about it, and it will still be silly to be upset about it.

Anyone Else reading this with Yahtze's voice? (Replace his name + astrophe s with my)


I still think the ultras need some flaws then they might be good.
Though right now they are sitting as king of Cliches and Have a bowl of cliches for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It makes draigo the Pimp of cliches.

Eh, I'm not "screaming to the skies for vengeance", nor am I upset. I just think it's kinda dumb, that's all. I'd like to see more fluff presented about the other chapters who don't get their own codex, but that's about it. I do think the extremely virulent Ultrahate is pretty funny, though.

jadebullet wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:LOLwut?
.

What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?

Blood Angels: Attempted Codex, but dealing with a major flaw. Also, tech kept from the Mechanicus.
Dark Angels: Non codex, use different tactics. Also, they are very secretive.
Space Wolves: Very non codex. Unable to have successor chapters. They have over 1k marines, but they are divided into 10 companies.
Black Templars: Completely ignore the codex. They have over 1k marines, and use a completely different organization.

The Ultramarines are faulted for this because most people prefer the other chapters with more fluff, such as the Ravenguard, the White Scars, the Salamanders. Then they pick up the codex, or a painting book like "how to paint space marines" and it is mainly about the Ultras, which are the most boring chapter.

Hey chief, he was saying that each of those chapters received their very own Codex, whereas the Ultras actually do not have their own dedicated Codex.

As in a Codex like the one you buy at a store.

RatBot wrote:
If the Codex was called Codex: Ultramarines, then the intense focus on the Ultramarines would be justified, but as it is, it's Codex: Space Marines, but focuses almost exclusively on the Ultramarines. It's also the way it's presented; the fluff is written in such a way as to portray the Ultramarines as vastly superior to all other Chapters, even prominent and accomplished founding chapters like the Salamanders and the Imperial Fists.

Or you could note that Codex Ultramarines was turned -into- Codex Space Marines. Or the fact that the Ultramarines no longer have their own Codex, whereas Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templar, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights do.

As he established, it -used- to be called Codex: Ultramarines and then they made it Codex Space Marines. In other words they deemphasized Ultramarines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm not gonna quote you vaktathi because I'm on a phone and it's annoying. But honestly your argument just sounds like sour grapes.

Well, good to know we're dismissing arguments out of hand for convenience sake and chalking it all up to sour grapes just for kicks and giggles then.

GW named the Ultramarines "the greatest". That's really where it starts and stops. Why complain about it?

Because it's based literally in "because they just are". That's bad fluff, and doesn't go over well. If that's the justification, fine, but realize it's bad and people are fully justified in calling it bad.

It just is what it is, and it doesn't make any other chapter suck by comparison.

If another is clearly the best, then yes, it does, because someone else is better, and if someone else is better, then, by definition, you suck by comparison.

Again, notice no other race has a defined "best", not only because it makes others look lesser by comparison, but because they don't *need* a "best".

The Ultramarines aren't individually better, but the Chapter as a whole has been more successful, and more prolific.

Define success? Prolific yes, but that just makes them prolific. The Cadian's are widely patterened by other worlds for training methods and equipment, but nobody notes them as clearly "the best" IG.

Some of it is from their unique position following the Heresy and Guilliman's superior administrative and logistical infrastructure compared to the other Legions.

Other Space Marine chapters weren't granted a mini-empire to rule as they saw fit to build such. Which again, contradicts their nature, in that the SM's were broken up specifically so they wouldn't have such power, but then the Ultramarines get their own little perfect empire (and somehow, despite being constantly campaigning super soldiers somehow master politics and economics to build a glorious perfect-realm...) with vast armies of normal human troops at their command (which was another reason for the Legion splintering and enforcing the Codex Astartes doctrines so they couldn't command vast armies of troops and have the anvil to back up their hammer), and apparently all other UM successors at the UM's disposal if necessary (which, again, if they needed to break the Legions up and institute the Codex organization...)

And I'd like you to point out what Mat Ward added. I bet the majority of what you think predates Ward. Ward's a scapegoat.

Off the top of my head? The sillyness of "these chapters can never be Ultramarines...", the BA's "striving to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but...", the gak about "each member of the Ultramarines Honor Guard has earnt more commendations and glories than whole companies of Space Marines from any other Chapter..."

Stuff like that. I don't see that written in 2E: Codex Ultramarines. In fact, Codex: Ultramarines from 2E only describes them as the exemplars of the Codex Astartes way of waging war and organizing a chapter (which, as you can see from above...they apparently aren't), whereas Mat Ward has other ideas


Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm butthurt my chapter isn't the best, I don't have a loyalist SM army to get butthurt over, and I have similar (if not greater) antipathy towards the Space Wolves for similar mary-sueness, bad writing, and contradictory nature/fluff. I just dislike bad fluff and see no reason why it shouldn't be called out as bad no matter where it comes from.

Well... in the eyes of the Imperium I'd think that the Ultramarines would be the "best".

Blood Angels have a failing geneseed, Space Wolves are untrustworthy mutants, Dark Angels are just untrustworthy, ect...

I can't wrap my head around the problem with Ultras.

They are the posterboys of GW. They are BRAND RECOGNITION!

Think of the kid who has never heard of GW, WHFB or 40k...

GW would rather have this kids mind overloaded with Ultramarines than anything else. They look cool, they have a "boys" color and have (arguably the larges model line of the loyalist power armour.

Face it. Ultramarines are the very definition of what it is to be an Astartes.

All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.

another quote to back it up:

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

THAT'S where it gets bad. It says, black and white, that these first founding chapters "can never be Ultramarines... but aspire to the standards... of the great Primarch."

It literally says that all other Chapters believe they are inferior to Ultramarines, and indeed, are aware that they are. Apparently being worthy of being Rogal Dorn's or Corax's geneseed isn't enough. The Salamander's don't want to live up to Vulkan's standards, they want to live up to Guilliman's. Jaghatai Khan's not good enough for the White Scars, they look to Guilliman for guidance.

All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.

The way the Space Marine Codex talks about them sure as hell makes it sound like they're less awesome.

Again, I don't hate the Ultramarines. I don't even hate Mat Ward. I just think he's not a very good writer and I dislike some of his fluff.

RatBot wrote:another quote to back it up:

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

THAT'S where it gets bad. It says, black and white, that these first founding chapters "can never be Ultramarines... but aspire to the standards... of the great Primarch."

It literally says that all other Chapters believe they are inferior to Ultramarines, and indeed, are aware that they are. Apparently being worthy of being Rogal Dorn's or Corax's geneseed isn't enough. The Salamander's don't want to live up to Vulkan's standards, they want to live up to Guilliman's. Jaghatai Khan's not good enough for the White Scars, they look to Guilliman for guidance.

All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.

The way the Space Marine Codex talks about them sure as hell makes it sound like they're less awesome.

I think your misunderstanding the first quote.

If you are not made from ULTRAMARINE GENESEED you are not an Ultramarine.

"Standards and Teachings" is not the same as "sons".

And I think you're missing the key part:

These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Why should they aspire to "the standards and teachings" of another Chapter's Primarch? And even then, the Raven Guard and White Scars are doing a pretty lousy job of it, what with the former's love of stealth and psychological warfare and the latter's preponderance of bikes. Saying "these chapters can never be Ultramarines" is implicitly stating they're inferior, that they aspire to be Ultramarines but never will be, because apparently being an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand isn't good enough. "These chapters can never be Ultramarines" implies that the Chapters will never be as good as Ultramarines. If it said "The members of these Chapters can never be Ultramarines" it would imply more that they can't be Ultramarines because they're already something else. But again, why would they aspire to live up to the standards of a different Primarch? I'm not saying that other Chapters have no respect for other Primarchs, but why would the Imperial Fists aspire to Guilliman's standards instead of Rogal Dorn's? How can anyone even pretend that non-Ultramarines aspire to Guilliman's standards when they all flout the Codex Astartes in one way or another? It implies that the wherever a Chapter diverges from the Ultramarines, it is considered inferior to Ultramarines. It basically says, indirectly, that the Raven Guard don't want to be sneaky commandos; after all, they aspire to the teachings of Roboute Guilliman! But, dammit, they just can't help themselves. Curse, you, Corax! Your geneseed has insured we can never be Ultramarines!

RatBot wrote:And I think you're missing the key part:

These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Why should they aspire to "the standards and teachings" of another Chapter's Primarch? And even then, the Raven Guard and White Scars are doing a pretty lousy job of it, what with the former's love of stealth and psychological warfare and the latter's preponderance of bikes. Saying "these chapters can never be Ultramarines" is implicitly stating they're inferior, that they aspire to be Ultramarines but never will be, because apparently being an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand isn't good enough. "These chapters can never be Ultramarines" implies that the Chapters will never be as good as Ultramarines. If it said "The members of these Chapters can never be Ultramarines" it would imply more that they can't be Ultramarines because they're already something else. But again, why would they aspire to live up to the standards of a different Primarch? I'm not saying that other Chapters have no respect for other Primarchs, but why would the Imperial Fists aspire to Guilliman's standards instead of Rogal Dorn's? How can anyone even pretend that non-Ultramarines aspire to Guilliman's standards when they all flout the Codex Astartes in one way or another? It implies that the wherever a Chapter diverges from the Ultramarines, it is considered inferior to Ultramarines. It basically says, indirectly, that the Raven Guard don't want to be sneaky commandos; after all, they aspire to the teachings of Roboute Guilliman! But, dammit, they just can't help themselves. Curse, you, Corax! Your geneseed has insured we can never be Ultramarines!

These groves of oranges will never be apples, for they are not genetically apples. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of great fruit.

Except they don't. Copy+pasted:

The White Scars, unlike other Codex Chapters, maintain a much higher proportion of bike squadrons and Land Speeders, a reflection of the style of warfare favoured by the Chapter. They are also entirely lacking in Devastator Squads, as the slow, heavy weapons clash against the White Scar's method of battle. The Chapter also maintains relatively few battle tanks, which are often stripped-down versions in order to keep with the rest of the White Scars. Finally, the White Scars do not possess any Dreadnoughts since the thought of confining a warriors' spirit within a sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.

They eschew Codex Astartes organizational doctrine, which dictates that each battle company contain two Devastator Squads, and one of the reserve companies is supposed to be composed almost entirely of Devastators. How can it be said that they "aspire to the standards and teachings of" Guilliman when they ignore portions of it? They do follow the Codex.... sort of.

Either they're doing a lousy job of following Guilliman's teachings, or they don't care.

Since the Codex Astartes doesn't actually exist, we don't know what exactly it contains, so it's difficult to argue other points, but it's obvious that the White Scars disregard portions of it when it comes to organizing their Chapter.

However, it is expressly stated in the Space Marine Codex that they do aspire to his teachings, which is demonstrably false, and it is implied that being unable to follow those teachings makes them inferior.

Coolyo294 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.

Did you actually read Nightbringer? Ventris didn't release the shard, Kasimir de Valtos and his Dark Eldar compadres did.

Which probably wouldn't have happened if the planet'd been Exterminatus'd.

Eidolon wrote:

RicBlasko wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.

They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.

Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.

UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.

See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.

Translating what I think he means in a non-confrontational way, is that the Ultramarines are hard to identify with as characters. The Blood Angels are interesting because they have the flaw in their gene seed which makes them go crazy. They are proper protagonists. I think thats why he mentioned comic books. Comic book characters tend to have something about themselves that audiences can identify with and feel for.

I think his opinion seems to be that the Ultramarines don't have and they appear to be the perfect guys with nothing wrong with them. The bully comment seems to be in relation to things like Gulliman dictating the Codex Astartes to everyone else.

Personally I've already said that I don't dislike them. I don't like them either, they just don't seem to be the marine chapter for me, thats all. I like the Blood Angels because of the fluff and I think its awesome and I also like Grey Knights because they are the Puritan Army who rival against Daemons. Their fluff just seems more of my bag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.


The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.

In the fluff they are supposed to be the best, but you just don't get that feeling when looking at all the chapters. For instance.

1) Blood Angels go crazy and can apparently wipe out anything in an assault when this happens. They also get special Sanguinary Guard all with Artificier armour.

2) Space Wolves are expert close combat quarters as well but also have some weird squad configurations for their long fangs for excellent shooting support. How many missile launchers do they have per squad? Not to mention the extras they can have with wolftooth necklace, etc.

3) Dark Angels have a whole army of termies, need I say more.

In my opinion, fluff wise they are really sold short. Told to be the best, but when you look (troops and options wise) at them they are fairly unspecial, if you know what I mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote: Somebody had to be the best.

I see no reason for this statement to be true. What other race has a sub-faction specifically labelled as "the best"? None that I can think of. There is no "best" Imperial Guard, there is no "best" Ork Clan, there is no "best" Chaos god, there is no "best" Chaos Legion, there is no "best" Craftworld, etc.

Abaddon from the Black Legion would like to have a word with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote: People call their color scheme drab and dumb because it's just blue, yet all the other mainstream chapters are a single color (aside from oddballs like Death Company, etc).

And don't forget those Golden Boys The Sanguinary Guard

Not disagreeing with you. Yes, most chapters are usually just a single colour. I just thought I would point out that BA have a slightly bigger divergence than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RatBot wrote:Eh, I'm not "screaming to the skies for vengeance", nor am I upset. I just think it's kinda dumb, that's all. I'd like to see more fluff presented about the other chapters who don't get their own codex, but that's about it. I do think the extremely virulent Ultrahate is pretty funny, though.

I thought you were pretty clear on that but apparently some people still want to accuse you of Ultra-hate.

DarthOvious wrote:[

Abaddon from the Black Legion would like to have a word with you.

I'm sure *he* would, but the Black Legion aren't held up as "the best" Legion by the codex, just the most...inclusive if you will

Vak, your arguments still sound like sour grapes, and are mired in half truths, and (deliberate) omissions.

You say the Ultramarines have no fluff to back them up as the greatest, and yet they stopped two hive fleets. They are the sires of 60% of existing chapters because they've kept their gene seed pure. Their primarch wrote the book that has defined Space Marine warfare for ten thousand years. Some chapters don't use all of it, but most of them use at least some. It's only the organization and heraldry that some chapters ignore or modify. The teachings on strategy and tactics are the cornerstone of how Space Marines do battle, and nobody is better at it than the Ultramarines (and nobody worse about writting it that McNeill).

As far as if you're the best, everybody else sucks, that's just stupid. Not even going to sugarcoat it. Is the team that wins the championship in a sports league the best? For that season. Does everyone else suck? Certainly not. This isn't a 1 or 0 situation. If the Ultramarines are "the greatest", it doesn't, in any way, using any measure of logic or reasoning, make everyone else "the least". The fluff is very explicit about how great Space Marines are. The Ultramarines are just the top of that pile. Only somebody who was jealous that their favorite color of plastic toy soldiers hadn't been chosen would interpret it any other way. Seriously. It's just plain absurd to suggest that the Ultramarines being "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" equates to that "all other Space Marines are useless bags of camel dung".

And the Ultramarines weren't granted an empire. Read the fluff. It might help. Guilliman conquered Ultramar before the Emperor arrived. Those were his planets, not planets the emperor gave him, or ones he gave himself. In fact, since the modern fluff suggests Ultramar at one point was as large as 500 worlds, Guilliman surrendered up the vast majority of his empire, and only kept the handful of planets that were his by right.

This is something most haters seem to forget (or never realize in the first place). When the Emperor fould Guilliman, he was already an emperor in his own right. Certainly shouldn't the other primarchs be mad that Dorn was given Holy Terra, raised above all others? No, so why would they begrudge Guilliman for keeping what was his? They wouldn't, of course.

I think your misinterpretations of the "strive to live up to teachings" has been adequately covered already. It's been said that the Imperial Fists are paragons of the Codex. The Blood Angels embrace it, with adjustments made to account for their gene seed instabilities. If they embrace the Codex and its wisdom, then yes, they're striving to live up to the teachings of Guilliman. That doesn't, in any way, mean they don't venerate their own primarch, or even suggest they venerate Guilliman more. But, this brings us back to your "all or nothing" interpretation of "greatest", which didn't make any sense then, just as it doesn't make any sense in this case.

I like lots of chapters. I poke fun at the Black Templars from time to time because their battle tactics are silly and their methods ludicrous (no small unit leadership, throwing light armored rookies into the midst of heavy armored shock troops who would draw heavier fire than the rookies's armor can withstand, abandoning supporting arms like heavy weapons squads and artillery, just for starters). But I don't hate any chapters. Why? Because they're just plastic toy soldiers. So yeah, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me when people get all worked up over one chapter or another. The Ultramarines are one of the Big Four. That's the way it is, and the way it always has been.

Again, the only people allowed to complain are Crimson Fists fans with graying hair whose chapter was all but forgotten by 2nd Edition, lol.

Frankly, if it wasn't for the Ultramarines being such strict adherents to the Codex, the other divergent chapters wouldn't be special at all, because all their supposed 'differences' wouldn't be measured against anything as a standard.

Also, I don't hear any Flesh Tearers or other Blood Angels successor chapter players screaming that the Blood Angles Codex is all about Blood Angels, even though they use the same codex for their army.......

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Vak, your arguments still sound like sour grapes, and are mired in half truths, and (deliberate) omissions.

Call it whatever you want, I'm just calling it as I see it and providing examples where I find them.

You say the Ultramarines have no fluff to back them up as the greatest, and yet they stopped two hive fleets.

And other chapters have fought their share of glorious battles against powerful enemies as well.

They are the sires of 60% of existing chapters because they've kept their gene seed pure.

Being the largest Legion at the end of the heresy (due to having missed out on much of the fighting) had a large part of that. I don't recall the fluff on their geneseed off the top of my head and I don't have the book here at work.

Their primarch wrote the book that has defined Space Marine warfare for ten thousand years.

How does that matter to what they are now?

The teachings on strategy and tactics are the cornerstone of how Space Marines do battle, and nobody is better at it than the Ultramarines

So, by definition, other chapters are worse.

As far as if you're the best, everybody else sucks, that's just stupid. Not even going to sugarcoat it. Is the team that wins the championship in a sports league the best? For that season. Does everyone else suck?

Note the use of the words *By Comparison*. Relative to. Does it mean other suck in an absolute sense? No. Does it mean they are diminished in status however, by definition, since they are not *the best*.

We're also talking about a span of 10,000 years where the UM's have supposedly always been the best, not some fleeting thing or a "this season" type deal.

And the Ultramarines weren't granted an empire. Read the fluff. It might help. Guilliman conquered Ultramar before the Emperor arrived. Those were his planets, not planets the emperor gave him, or ones he gave himself. In fact, since the modern fluff suggests Ultramar at one point was as large as 500 worlds, Guilliman surrendered up the vast majority of his empire, and only kept the handful of planets that were his by right.

And he made all the other SM's give up their mini-empires and command of large numbers of troops, but kept his own empire and large numbers of troops and fleets.

This is something most haters seem to forget (or never realize in the first place). When the Emperor fould Guilliman, he was already an emperor in his own right. Certainly shouldn't the other primarchs be mad that Dorn was given Holy Terra, raised above all others? No, so why would they begrudge Guilliman for keeping what was his? They wouldn't, of course.

Again, irrelevant, as the other chapters had to divide themselves down and confine themselves largely to one world and give up command over IN/IG troops and equivalents. The UM's did not, despite forcing that on others.

I think your misinterpretations of the "strive to live up to teachings" has been adequately covered already. It's been said that the Imperial Fists are paragons of the Codex. The Blood Angels embrace it, with adjustments made to account for their gene seed instabilities. If they embrace the Codex and its wisdom, then yes, they're striving to live up to the teachings of Guilliman.

And missed what I was saying, in that that whole section makes the UM's out as definitively greater than other chapters with other chapters being unable to ever reach their status. That's bad fluff, that's "because I said so" stuff, and that's why people dislike them.

That doesn't, in any way, mean they don't venerate their own primarch, or even suggest they venerate Guilliman more.

Again, not what I was saying at all.

But, this brings us back to your "all or nothing" interpretation of "greatest", which didn't make any sense then, just as it doesn't make any sense in this case.

Because you aren't really getting the "by comparison" thing.


I'll note my response to the Mat Ward question of additions was unaddressed

I can't speak for other people... I can only speak for myself, but here are my reasons for disliking the Ultramarines:

Non-fluff reasons:
1. Before Relic came along, Ultramarines were the only Space Marines that anyone outside of the hobby ever really got to see. Wherever there was cross-pollination going on, it was always the Ultramarines. Now, of course, it's Ultramarines and Blood Ravens. Forge World is building a life-sized Rhino, or so I hear. What chapter did they paint it up as? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Nope... Ultramarines. ALWAYS Ultramarines.

2. Ultramarines have been the definition of "vanilla" Space Marines since I started playing in 3rd Edition. As such, they've graced the cover of more codexes than *any other army in the game*.

3. I'm still bitter about 4th/5th/now 6th edition... Dark Angels were pretty awesome in 3rd Edition compared to normal Space Marines... not better, but just as good. Then the 4th Edition Space Marine codex came out and gave them (and specifically the Ultramarines) a bunch of new toys... toys that the Dark Angels didn't get. Then the 4th Edition Dark Angels codex came out... did the Dark Angels get new toys? Of course not. Jervis Johnson apparently decided that Marines had gotten a bit over the top and decided to tone them down with the Dark Angel Codex (which, of course, only affected the Dark Angels). By the time the 5th Edition Space Marine codex came out, the pendulum had swung back to super powerful codexes again, so the Space Marines got EVEN MORE cool toys that, again, the Dark Angels didn't get. So, for 3 editions, I've watched the Ultramarines be "better" than the Dark Angels simply because they got their codexes at a time when it was cool to have high powered codexes and we got our (one) codex at a time when it was cool to keep things from being too powerful.


Fluff reasons:
1. Guilleman was one of the primary supporters of the High Lords of Terra taking over the Imperium in the Emperor's semi-absence. He also decided to dictate to all the other Space Marine chapters how they should organize themselves, and used his influence with the High Lords of Terra to enforce it (and, also, the fact that his Ultramarines outnumbered the remaining loyalist chapters thanks to them showing up late to the fight at the end of the Horus Heresy) to enforce those rules on the other chapters. I think it's highly insulting to both the First Legion (Dark Angels) and the other First Founding chapters that the Ultramarines get to tell us what to do, or that they can use the Successor Chapter rule to essentially dilute the power of other chapters while keeping their own chapter strong (all 10 or so Ultramarines Successor chapters still report directly to Ultramar).

2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though.

3. Ultramarines being Ultramarines because they're from Ultramar (and not because they're Ultra Marines) is as silly to me as Land Raiders being Land Raiders because they were raiding vehicles who's designs were discovered by some guy named Land (and not because they raid things on land).

2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though.

Gully didn't "show up late", he was distracted by Horus, ambushed by Logar and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.

He then retook control of the galaxy (kinda) and gave the spoils to the humans.

If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.

DeffDred wrote:
and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.

Only after the Traitor Legions had already been broken and fractured and no longer acting as a cohesive whole, with the entirety of the Imperium united behind him as pretty much the only Loyalist legion not either destroyed on Istvaan, crippled by internal strife, or savaged on Terra, save for the Space Wolves who were were tiny by comparison even before the Heresy. It's not like anyone else was in shape to take on the job of mopping up after having done the majority of the fighting at the peak of the Heresy.

If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.

The Iron Hands were on Istvaan. Whether the Ultramarines presence would have resulted in victory over Horus in mere days or not is pure conjecture, especially given that they'd still have been outnumbered by the Traitor Legions.

Blackraine wrote:I can't speak for other people... I can only speak for myself, but here are my reasons for disliking the Ultramarines:

Non-fluff reasons:
1. Before Relic came along, Ultramarines were the only Space Marines that anyone outside of the hobby ever really got to see. Wherever there was cross-pollination going on, it was always the Ultramarines. Now, of course, it's Ultramarines and Blood Ravens. Forge World is building a life-sized Rhino, or so I hear. What chapter did they paint it up as? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Nope... Ultramarines. ALWAYS Ultramarines.
THQ did a Blood Raven Rhino


2. Ultramarines have been the definition of "vanilla" Space Marines since I started playing in 3rd Edition. As such, they've graced the cover of more codexes than *any other army in the game*.
No Argument


3. I'm still bitter about 4th/5th/now 6th edition... Dark Angels were pretty awesome in 3rd Edition compared to normal Space Marines... not better, but just as good. Then the 4th Edition Space Marine codex came out and gave them (and specifically the Ultramarines) a bunch of new toys... toys that the Dark Angels didn't get. Then the 4th Edition Dark Angels codex came out... did the Dark Angels get new toys? Of course not. Jervis Johnson apparently decided that Marines had gotten a bit over the top and decided to tone them down with the Dark Angel Codex (which, of course, only affected the Dark Angels). By the time the 5th Edition Space Marine codex came out, the pendulum had swung back to super powerful codexes again, so the Space Marines got EVEN MORE cool toys that, again, the Dark Angels didn't get. So, for 3 editions, I've watched the Ultramarines be "better" than the Dark Angels simply because they got their codexes at a time when it was cool to have high powered codexes and we got our (one) codex at a time when it was cool to keep things from being too powerful.
As a fellow DA player I hope Dark Angels get buffed, but I doubt they will be more powerful than the next SM codex


Fluff reasons:
1. Guilleman was one of the primary supporters of the High Lords of Terra taking over the Imperium in the Emperor's semi-absence. He also decided to dictate to all the other Space Marine chapters how they should organize themselves, and used his influence with the High Lords of Terra to enforce it (and, also, the fact that his Ultramarines outnumbered the remaining loyalist chapters thanks to them showing up late to the fight at the end of the Horus Heresy) to enforce those rules on the other chapters. I think it's highly insulting to both the First Legion (Dark Angels) and the other First Founding chapters that the Ultramarines get to tell us what to do, or that they can use the Successor Chapter rule to essentially dilute the power of other chapters while keeping their own chapter strong (all 10 or so Ultramarines Successor chapters still report directly to Ultramar).
In all fairness both Dark Angels and Blood Angels do that as well, fluff supports Blood Angels supporting the parent chapter during a time of crisis. The Inner circle act in complete cohesion with the Dark Angels Chapter Master as leader, But still they are outnumbered by Ultramarine successors


2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though.
Lion had no issue sacrificing troops and ground(Source Angels of Darkness), something I am guessing Guilleman didn't like to do, and after the shattering loss of so many marines in all the Legions I could see where a thought process that involved losing less men and ground would become ideal for many


3. Ultramarines being Ultramarines because they're from Ultramar (and not because they're Ultra Marines) is as silly to me as Land Raiders being Land Raiders because they were raiding vehicles who's designs were discovered by some guy named Land (and not because they raid things on land).
...won't lie I am liking this argument. Night Lords got their name because they gained their lordship while at night...brilliant

Vaktathi wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.

Only after the Traitor Legions had already been broken and fractured and no longer acting as a cohesive whole, with the entirety of the Imperium united behind him as pretty much the only Loyalist legion not either destroyed on Istvaan, crippled by internal strife, or savaged on Terra, save for the Space Wolves who were were tiny by comparison even before the Heresy. It's not like anyone else was in shape to take on the job of mopping up after having done the majority of the fighting at the peak of the Heresy.

If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.

The Iron Hands were on Istvaan. Whether the Ultramarines presence would have resulted in victory over Horus in mere days or not is pure conjecture, especially given that they'd still have been outnumbered by the Traitor Legions.

The Traitor Legions were not "broken", only their assault on Terra. There is plenty of fluff discribing the aftermath, what with all the thousands of world still in chaos hands.

The Iron Hands were on Istvaan but not at full strength. And Mannus rushed into things.

The Ultramarines would have resulted in victory. It was forseen. "Black and Cobalt rings around the blanck sanded world, containing the flames" and all that.

The Ultramarines outnumbered everyone except (maybe) the Word Bearers.

And don't forget Horus specifically scattered the Ultramarines along the eastern rim because he knew he could not defeat them.

DeffDred wrote:
The Traitor Legions were not "broken", only their assault on Terra. There is plenty of fluff discribing the aftermath, what with all the thousands of world still in chaos hands.

Yes, they still held a lot of territory, but they did not act as a cohesive whole after that and had taken savage casualties. The force that Horus led to near victory, that sundered the Imperium, was broken.

The Iron Hands were on Istvaan but not at full strength. And Mannus rushed into things.

True.

The Ultramarines would have resulted in victory. It was forseen. "Black and Cobalt rings around the blanck sanded world, containing the flames" and all that.

From one source (in fictional story arc with multiple contradictory fluff points and tellings, often intentionally), and who knows how long that would have taken, days or centuries.

The Ultramarines outnumbered everyone except (maybe) the Word Bearers.

Not disputing that the Ultramarines were largest Legion, only that between the openly traitorous and covertly traitorous legions the numbers question is less certain.

And don't forget Horus specifically scattered the Ultramarines along the eastern rim because he knew he could not defeat them.

Couldn't defeat the Ultramarines or couldn't defeat the Imperium with the Ultramarines full strength added to everyone else's? Very different things.

Most of this also seems to boil down not to the Ultramarines being the embodiment of tactical excellence, but the Ultramarines having weight of numbers.