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I think people dislike Ultramarines because many people think consider them to be a lame chapter.

AND THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

LoneLictor wrote:The latest bandwagon is accusing people who don't like Ultramarines of being bandwagoners.

Are you suggesting that hating Ultramarines is only for a select few of discriminating tastes? LOL.

Clearly being annoyed by the nigh constant whining about them or Ward is bandwagoning.

I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

You are right. When I first started (2009) I was reading through the SM codex and all it was that I read was UM being so great and that they were flawless. Then I looked at a table of a guy playing DA and I was like OMG better!
The UM are just too bland and tasteless (like a Mcdonalds Cheeseburger) and the only thing they had going for them was the IC. Then looking at DA, BT and the other chapters I think that I would choose them. But that My opinion.
But everyone has different tastes don't they? It just depends who they are and what fancies them Just don't dump on someone 'cause they like the UM or other chapters, or otherwise I would hate all BA, GK and SW....

hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

*Cough*Chapters Due*Cough*Dead Sky Black Sun *cough*
I don't hate ultramarines, but I do find much of their codex fluff to be mary sue, hence why I prefer Dark Angels

hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

In the SM Codex it does say that during the Battle for Macragge the entire 1st company is wiped out.

Also I apologise, I did not expect this thread to become so heated.
I was kind of hoping for a rational reason as to why Ultramarines are lame. The whole "Matt Ward (Apparently the GW equivalent of Satan) wrote some lame fluff so that makes the entire chapter lame." Is hardly rational in my eyes.

I understand if there are people who simply do not like UM or even SM as a whole but the level of... uhh lets call it 'dislike' I see from a lot of people is somewhat overwhelming.

Manchu wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:The latest bandwagon is accusing people who don't like Ultramarines of being bandwagoners.

Are you suggesting that hating Ultramarines is only for a select few of discriminating tastes? LOL.

You're obviously purposefully misinterpreting my post.

I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon. I did not say or even imply anything about the character and tastes of Ultramarine haters and Ultramarine hater haters.

LoneLictor wrote:I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon.

Yes, so I read. But I'm afraid it's simply too preposterous. A rational opinion will never be a bandwagon on the internet. The Ultramarines do not win every battle; judging by the standards of the entire line of codicies, they win no more than any other faction except that one faction that always loses more often than any other, the Sisters of Battle. Their leaders are no less grandiose than those of other Chapters: for every Calgar, an Azrael and for every Tigurius, a Mephiston. Nor are their leaders infallible: what of poor Agemman passed over for arrogant Sicarius? No other Chapter has any hint of such internal tension among the highest ranks, except that it is long dead (as with the Dark Angels or Iron Hands). As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

Thank you, Manchu, for your insight into the topic

Manchu wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon.

Yes, so I read. But I'm afraid it's simply too preposterous. A rational opinion will never be a bandwagon on the internet. The Ultramarines do not win every battle; judging by the standards of the entire line of codicies, they win no more than any other faction except that one faction that always loses more often than any other, the Sisters of Battle. Their leaders are no less grandiose than those of other Chapters: for every Calgar, an Azrael and for every Tigurius, a Mephiston. Nor are their leaders infallible: what of poor Agemman passed over for arrogant Sicarius? No other Chapter has any hint of such internal tension among the highest ranks, except that it is long dead (as with the Dark Angels or Iron Hands). As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

Exalted, and thank you. My Republican Romans in Space need all the help they can get.

A tin can is a tin can, no matter the color. Whether they got beards, or write sad poems, they are still tin cans.

OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

Did you know Meugan Ra fought off an entire tyranid splinter fleet on a planet, held them off and beat it back? No? Because apparently The ultramarines are the only ones who can become mary sue's apparently. And only mat ward can make them! Not like vect and his perfect self.

I mostly just hate the concept behind the codex astartes and claims that they are "the greatest space marine chapter" as though it is objectively true. They are the best as long as it means are a jack of all trades, the Raptors are better at stealth, the Minotaurs are better at close quarters assaults. Also, it isn't as if the space marines need to be generalists, each chapter is about 200-6,000 strong, and can generally pick and choose their battles, the Raptors don't need to assault a hive world with lots of close quarters action if they don't want to and the Minotaurs can decide to ignore the call for help from that Agri World with nothing but fields of grain. So yeah, the only things I hate about the UM are the codex astartes and Matt Ward's fanboyism. I like Matt Ward in general, I think he has the huge guts to actually make big changes to fluff even against the will of the players to make a race better (Newcrons can actually have special characters and Ctan can exist on the TT without being 100 times weaker than the fluff version), but some of his writing seems too much like shoddy fanfics.

"So Draigo is the awesome leader to the Grey Knights, and even carved his predecessor's name into the heart of a daemon primarch, but then some greater daemon sucked him into the warp. Now, the warp is scary, but Draigo ain't no whiny bitch, so he got to work. First he killed the daemonettes that tend to Slaanesh's innermost circle, then he burned down nurgle's garden..."

TBH I still think Ward is one of the better codex writers.

I don't know why people are laying the blame for Ultramarine dislike at Matt Ward's door.

I'm no Matt Ward supporter. I have wished many and varied misfortunes upon the man's head for what he did to my Necron fluff. However, Ultramarine hate has been around in this game for far longer than Matt Ward has been writing codexes. People were hating on Ultramarines back before Matt Ward was even playing the evil armies in battle reports for White Dwarf.

Some people may not have been around in the game for long enough to remember this, but there were Codex: Space Marines around long before Matt Ward showed up, and unlike the current one, within the meta-games of their respective editions, they were always one of the top-tier books. Sure, the current marine book has a few gimmicks with all bikes, or Vulkan drop pods, but in general Nilla SM plays 2nd fiddle to Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights as they generally do just about the same thing, or better, for cheaper.

The last marine book with the 'build a chapter' rules in the back, plus the insane efficiency of 4-5 6-man marine squads with a lascannon and plasmagun (Las/Plas), either plus or minus a Razorback with another Lascannon and a TL Plasmagun was a VERY solid core to build an army around that required little to no thought. The majority of these squads were painted blue simply by virtue of the fact that it was a decently easy paint job. Lots of clever army ideas had to compete against the notion that just taking 6 Las/Plas squads was cheaper and more effective for the points. It's only recently that the marine chapters have become very truly 'different' forces, something I think many people aren't aware of. Yes, there have always been codexes for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and the like, but in general they were far less distinctive. Blood Angels in 3rd edition were effectively just Vanilla Marines with army wide Furious Charge, a cooky death company that was generated by rolling to see how many of the men you'd already bought and paid for freaked out, and Rhinos that were faster with a chance of breaking down. They had a Sang Priest as an HQ that could do cool things for a single unit, and that was about it. Copy and paste that over the Vanilla marine book and you had Blood Angels. Space Wolves were admittedly a bit different, with Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, etc, but in a way that very much was not any more or less efficient than what the vanilla marine book could accomplish. For a very long time, the choice between marine chapters was Ultramarines doing in the best, most point effective way at the apex, and you could move laterally and pay a bit more in points for a few cool special rules.

Add this to the already stated fact that pretty much since 1995, if GW has put out a poster or a cool image as part of some sort of marketing, there's a better than average change it's featuring an Ultramarine blasting something. They're the poster boy for 40k, and simply by default lots of people end up playing them because those are the images that got them interested in the game. They're boy scouts sure, they're 'mary sue's', they're boring, etc, whatever reason you wanna quote, those are nice window dressings, but, at least to people who have been playing the game for more than a decade, Ultramarine hate is rooted in their reputation as an army that was, until 2008, generally very effective on the table without having to be terribly imaginative about it, and thus loads of people played it in those days. From 2002 until about 2007 I'd go to tournament after tournament and see an easy 40 percent of the players with boys in blue, or the rules of the boys in blue painted up differently. It's fatigue and resentment of an 'easy' button as much as it is anything else.

Things like this are why I laugh at claims that 'Grey Knights is the most broken book GW has ever written!'. Every edition has it's easy button book. The marine book before the current one had far longer being a very powerful contender than Grey Knights had during 5th.

Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.

I came into the 40k world because of Space Crusade, so for me Imperial Fists were the ultimate in Space Marines. It didn't take much effort to find the info on them fighting at the Siege of Terra alongside the Blood Angels, the Ultra Marines were missing from that info so I sort of thought "hrmm weird" and then there really was no more info to use.

Fast forward many years and Ultramarine's had become virtually top dogs, as others wrote, a seemingly invincible army. Imperial Fists seemed to have become a "Who?" and Blood Angels were just a crazy bunch of guys. And then I kept reading, and for me, Ultramarine's just seemed to be getting more and more, in my eyes at least, traitors. Ones that may not have sided with Horus, but seem to have the ability to go the same way, just they wouldn't 'fail' where Horus did.

Mainly because of things like;
They have the most powerful Psyker.
An Empire of their own, which info upon seemed to indicate they do not pay tithes to the Imperium, nor do they provide recruits like other Imperial worlds.
Their Primarch is the reason the Legions broke up into smaller ones, using the argument that no one should have the power to control that many troops again. Yet Ultramarine's and their successors hold the balance of power when it comes to soldiers. If they chose to leave the Imperium, then all the other Chapters would be unable to stop them from taking power.
Their great hero's seem to have no problem using what sounds like Demonic weapons. The Shard/s of Erebus, which sounds like they were made from Anathame used against Horus, being alien weapons with what sounded like a Daemonic background.

So for me, Ultramarine's are a secretive Traitorous Legion and I don't like them. But that, is just me and I haven't read every single piece of work there is upon them.

SkyD wrote:I came into the 40k world because of Space Crusade, so for me Imperial Fists were the ultimate in Space Marines. It didn't take much effort to find the info on them fighting at the Siege of Terra alongside the Blood Angels, the Ultra Marines were missing from that info so I sort of thought "hrmm weird" and then there really was no more info to use.

Fast forward many years and Ultramarine's had become virtually top dogs, as others wrote, a seemingly invincible army. Imperial Fists seemed to have become a "Who?" and Blood Angels were just a crazy bunch of guys. And then I kept reading, and for me, Ultramarine's just seemed to be getting more and more, in my eyes at least, traitors. Ones that may not have sided with Horus, but seem to have the ability to go the same way, just they wouldn't 'fail' where Horus did.

Mainly because of things like;
They have the most powerful Psyker.
An Empire of their own, which info upon seemed to indicate they do not pay tithes to the Imperium, nor do they provide recruits like other Imperial worlds.
Their Primarch is the reason the Legions broke up into smaller ones, using the argument that no one should have the power to control that many troops again. Yet Ultramarine's and their successors hold the balance of power when it comes to soldiers. If they chose to leave the Imperium, then all the other Chapters would be unable to stop them from taking power.
Their great hero's seem to have no problem using what sounds like Demonic weapons. The Shard/s of Erebus, which sounds like they were made from Anathame used against Horus, being alien weapons with what sounded like a Daemonic background.

So for me, Ultramarine's are a secretive Traitorous Legion and I don't like them. But that, is just me and I haven't read every single piece of work there is upon them.

Wow, just wow, if only my signature had enough space in it for this, quite frankly for a takeover it would make sense that they would do this......I am exalting this post. I know somewhere I read about possibility of Alpha Legionnaire infiltration into the Ultramarines, and these actions would definitely suit their desires.

I'm fine with the Ultramarines, but Mat Wards incompetent nature makes it difficult to read the chapters fluff without cringing in hatred, as it seems Mat's own stupidity has rubbed off on every character under the title of 'Ultramarine', also, I dislike the colour scheme.

Xendarc wrote:I don't quite understand all the hate for the Ultramarines.
I was painting a Homebrew chapter in a similar scheme to the Ultramarines and a few people at MLG would investigate and say something along the lines of "Smurfs, really?" to which I would then explain that they are not 'Smurfs' nor Ultramarines.
Another time a friend of mine visited and saw my marines. Assuming they were Ultramarines he then proceeded to ramble on about how they were the worst SM chapter without actually explaining WHY they are so terrible.
I personally have no problem with the Ultramarines nor do I favour them. I simply see them as a successful chapter who happens to be the flavour of choice on a lot of GW advertising.
My question is: Why do people hate the Ultramarines? What makes them so bad? People make fun of them calling them 'Smurfs' simply because they are blue but what is the reasoning for this seemingly irrational distaste?

I know someone who hates them because of their romanesque feel and iconography.

Personally I don't really care. I don't hate them but for me I find their fluff to be a bit bland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.

Lol, just so happens to be the two armies that I play.

Being playing Blood Angels since 3rd ed and I started collecting Grey Knights a couple of months ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttons wrote:I mostly just hate the concept behind the codex astartes and claims that they are "the greatest space marine chapter" as though it is objectively true. They are the best as long as it means are a jack of all trades, the Raptors are better at stealth, the Minotaurs are better at close quarters assaults. Also, it isn't as if the space marines need to be generalists, each chapter is about 200-6,000 strong, and can generally pick and choose their battles, the Raptors don't need to assault a hive world with lots of close quarters action if they don't want to and the Minotaurs can decide to ignore the call for help from that Agri World with nothing but fields of grain. So yeah, the only things I hate about the UM are the codex astartes and Matt Ward's fanboyism. I like Matt Ward in general, I think he has the huge guts to actually make big changes to fluff even against the will of the players to make a race better (Newcrons can actually have special characters and Ctan can exist on the TT without being 100 times weaker than the fluff version), but some of his writing seems too much like shoddy fanfics.

"So Draigo is the awesome leader to the Grey Knights, and even carved his predecessor's name into the heart of a daemon primarch, but then some greater daemon sucked him into the warp. Now, the warp is scary, but Draigo ain't no whiny bitch, so he got to work. First he killed the daemonettes that tend to Slaanesh's innermost circle, then he burned down nurgle's garden..."

TBH I still think Ward is one of the better codex writers.

I thought he did a good job with the Blood Angels codex. I Love TheSanguinor and I love his fluff. The avenging angel who appears from nowhere to help the Blood Angels when in dire need. I also love the model, but I think the sculptors have to take credit for that one.

Shadox wrote:

Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.

Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.

I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.

The codex is what put me against them, how their heroes are that much greater than any possessed by other chapters, basically just the arrogant overtone of the poorly written book

hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.

So do the Fury Wolves ( although the Ragnar books were fun ), the Emo Angels ( which were burdened with an idiot ball the size of a Ramiles starfort in their books ) and the Silver Marines ( Formerly known as Grey Knights ).
Gods, the Salamanders are just as pukeworthy these days, if one had the bad luck of reading Kyme's books about them.

Lynata wrote:

Swiftblade wrote:Ultimately, they are seen as Mary Sue's

No Chapter is as Mary-Sue as the one that has single-handedly bested the Navy of an entire Imperial Segmentum, and defended its Chapter Fortress with a skeleton crew of Vets against millions upon millions of Guardsmen.
Oh, and they can afford flipping off the Inquisition, too, and they totally don't use psykers because they call it something else. Did I forget something? What was that bit with the giant flying space whale that they boarded and fought from within?

I agree any chapter with this type of fluff should be everybodies spiritual liege, and I beleive you forgot one of thier men took a pass at a demon in the form of a women :n-od: Besides were all mkaing tbhis fluff upright it couldn't possibly be this awesome and well thought out?

LoneLictor wrote:

TedNugent wrote:If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.

By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.

By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.

Matt Ward's Ultramarine related writing was worse than anything else he did. Just try sitting down and reading it.

Absoltely none of it is worse than what he regurgitated onto the pages of the Grey Knight codex.

Absolutely none.

Circa M29: The Unification Wars.
The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman , is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy.
Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan, the Dark Angels lose their homeworld and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.

546.M32: 'The Beheading':
The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated.
Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin.
Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar.
He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins.
Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades.
Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

444.M41: First War for Armageddon.
Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire
, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...

745.M41: First Tyrannic War.
Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.

754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101.
The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

901-912.M41 Badab War.
The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon.
The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon.

988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins.
A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins.
Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade.
The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.

htj wrote:

Shadox wrote:

Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.

Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.

I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.

Fathers was intended. I admit that predecessors would be more fitting, but I think we can assume, that every chapter does the 'daily stuff' that the ultramarines do (its just very well documented in their case), so we have to look at bigger events. Were the Ultramarines at any of the big rumbles in the galaxy except Behemoth and the Damocles-Crusade? (I do not want to say they were doing nothing) So we have things like the Apostasy, the 13th Black Crusade and the Wars for Armageddon, where the Ultramarines were nearly absent. But in such important events a chapter is able to make a name for themselves, a name the Ultramarines already had. That's the reason why I compare the successors to the deeds of their predecessors where they protected the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy and where they conquered nearly a third of the galaxy in the great crusade on their own.

FYI not all of the chapters I listed were from the 2nd founding

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines

Shadox wrote:

htj wrote:

Shadox wrote:

Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.

No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.

Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.

I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.

Fathers was intended. I admit that predecessors would be more fitting, but I think we can assume, that every chapter does the 'daily stuff' that the ultramarines do (its just very well documented in their case), so we have to look at bigger events. Were the Ultramarines at any of the big rumbles in the galaxy except Behemoth and the Damocles-Crusade? (I do not want to say they were doing nothing) So we have things like the Apostasy, the 13th Black Crusade and the Wars for Armageddon, where the Ultramarines were nearly absent. But in such important events a chapter is able to make a name for themselves, a name the Ultramarines already had. That's the reason why I compare the successors to the deeds of their predecessors where they protected the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy and where they conquered nearly a third of the galaxy in the great crusade on their own.

FYI not all of the chapters I listed were from the 2nd founding

Oh right, the Sons of Orar weren't. Surely those who were in the UM during the Heresy have already proven themselves?

Ultramarines are badass. If some kid starts dissing your army just give him a slap.



:3