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 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Yes, one who hasn't got the money can always use proxies.

Or you could just accept that your army won't have a Reaver titan. I can't afford one either, but I'm not going to put a pile of random cardboard boxes on the table and call it a titan just so I can get the D-weapons.

Or you could accept that there are players that like the game and are more lenient, instead of atacking every form of deviation from GW correctness.
It is about having fun with the game not some elitist notion that only those who can afford everything are only allowed to play.
If someone would use a large japanese robot model to proxy as a \reaver titan, i wouldn"t mind.

All sane people would agree.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
It is about having fun with the game not some elitist notion that only those who can afford everything are only allowed to play.

It's not about "you must pay this much to play", it's about having an enjoyable game with awesome models. The gameplay of 40k is mediocre at best, and the one redeeming aspect of the game is seeing the armies on the battlefield and imagining the fluff behind it all. Throwing cheap proxies, especially cheap proxies that look nothing like the real model (or even a 40k model at all), on the table just so you can play with the titan rules completely ruins that.

If someone would use a large japanese robot model to proxy as a \reaver titan, i wouldn"t mind.

And I would refuse to play against it. I'd rather pack up and go home than waste time playing against a "titan" like that.

 Swastakowey wrote:
All sane people would agree.

So anyone who wants to see real models on the table instead of ugly and inappropriate proxies is insane? Thanks for paying attention to the forum rules. /sarcasm

 sub-zero wrote:
Well, if I may comment here, I'm using the Leviathan Mortis as a "proxy" for a Chaos warhound titan. It is certainly not made of cardboard, and it's not sold by GW or their other company Forge World. I, as well as quite a few other people think that it's a really cool model, should I be "allowed" to play it?

As I believe has been mentioned previously, the issue with that model is that it's not the right size nor has the right weapons layout to match a Warhound, a substantially bulkier model with a larger footprint that does not have an option for a melee weapon.

If they ever release Knight rules, it would be different.

So where in the rulebook does it say that you can only use models from GW? Then maybe we shall have another round of "FW legality" discussion, too?

Btw, our group uses our own scenery and buildings. Maybe those are wrong, too?

 Peregrine wrote:


It's not about "you must pay this much to play", it's about having an enjoyable game with awesome models. The gameplay of 40k is mediocre at best, and the one redeeming aspect of the game is seeing the armies on the battlefield and imagining the fluff behind it all. Throwing cheap proxies, especially cheap proxies that look nothing like the real model (or even a 40k model at all), on the table just so you can play with the titan rules completely ruins that.

And I would refuse to play against it. I'd rather pack up and go home than waste time playing against a "titan" like that.

So anyone who wants to see real models on the table instead of ugly and inappropriate proxies is insane? Thanks for paying attention to the forum rules. /sarcasm

I hope you understand that there are people that have less rigid stance on what is allowed on the game table than yourself. These people can enjoy the game even if the models are not approved by the GW inquisition. If you do not like it that is your prerogative.

Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.

Like opinions, your spirit of the game may differ from other players' spirit of the game. Just because the other player believes that the spirit of the game is to have fun with official models only doesn't make them wrong. There is a reason some tournaments tend to be more strict on what proxies you can use while others are more lenient.

Some people may allow you to proxy an Ork mob, but if you tried to use a Mr. Potato Head Stompa they get upset because they think you only did that to save a lot of money and use a strong unit.

The hobby is inherently pay to win, there's no getting around it, so some people get upset that you didn't have to pay up like they did for whatever unit and in-game advantages they purchased. If you want to be a good sport in a friendly game, or hold a tournament that measures only skill and nothing else, proxies should be allowed since money spent should not be a deciding factor when having fun and when measuring playing skill.

But here's something to think about: wouldn't you appreciate the effort and consideration of a player who worked hard on an actual titan a bit more than someone who plonks down an unpainted Gunpla?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Like opinions, your spirit of the game may differ from other players' spirit of the game. Just because the other player believes that the spirit of the game is to have fun with official models only doesn't make them wrong. There is a reason some tournaments tend to be more strict on what proxies you can use while others are more lenient.

Some people may allow you to proxy an Ork mob, but if you tried to use a Mr. Potato Head Stompa they get upset because they think you only did that to save a lot of money and use a strong unit.

The hobby is inherently pay to win, there's no getting around it, so some people get upset that you didn't have to pay up like they did for whatever unit and in-game advantages they purchased. If you want to be a good sport in a friendly game, or hold a tournament that measures only skill and nothing else, proxies should be allowed since money spent should not be a deciding factor when having fun and when measuring playing skill.

But here's something to think about: wouldn't you appreciate the effort and consideration of a player who worked hard on an actual titan a bit more than someone who plonks down an unpainted Gunpla?

And I would say wouldn't you appreciate the effort more if someone had spent hours and hours building and painting their own, original model that's looks at least servicable rather than them throwing down a huge, poorly put together and unlainted Fw reaver? I would refer somebody playing with proxy Titan, it shows that they cared enough about outer game, or gaming in general to paint up something and put as much effort as they can into it for the match. Much better than somebody who is essentially just throwing money at some overpriced lump of resin.

XXXX

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.

Why do I have to put up with either? I don't want garbage "scratchbuilds" in my games, and I don't want cheap walmart toys as proxies.

Naw wrote:
So where in the rulebook does it say that you can only use models from GW?

I only know the 5th edition rulebook, so I have to go with that. The first sentence of page 3:

5th edition rulebook wrote:The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow.

If it's not a Citadel miniature, then it is, by the rules, not considered a model for use with 40k rules in the official rulebook.

Naw wrote:
Btw, our group uses our own scenery and buildings. Maybe those are wrong, too?

There is no such sentence for terrain or buildings.

I myself happily use non-GWS models in my games of 40k. There are lots of great models made by third party sellers. However, the only fair way to do this is to pick models that are approximately the same size as the model it is standing in for, and that clearly has weapons which match what the original model is armed with. By that rule of thumb, a papercraft Warhound is OK since it's the same size and has the same loadout. Eisenkern Stormtroopers are appropriate to use as Guardsmen or Space Marines, in my book, as long as you modify the special weapons to reflect who has a grav gun or flamethrower or whatever.

A Coke Can Carnifex is not OK because it's not the same size and I have no idea what it is supposed to be armed with.

Under the 40k and Forgeworld lineup, there are no models that a default, out of the box Leviathan is an appropriate counts as for: it has significantly different proportions and has a ccw where no such weapon is available to the closest sized titan.

If you used VDR to play it as a Knight or something like that, I'd be cool with it (and it obviously would fit in perfectly with Grey Knights), but it simply is inappropriate as a Warhound in my opinion.

 Ouze wrote:

Naw wrote:
So where in the rulebook does it say that you can only use models from GW?

I only know the 5th edition rulebook, so I have to go with that. The first sentence of page 3:

5th edition rulebook wrote:The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow.

If it's not a Citadel miniature, then it is, by the rules, not considered a model for use with 40k rules in the official rulebook.

It says the exact same thing verbatim on Page 2 of the 6th ed rulebook.

If you used VDR to play it as a Knight or something like that, I'd be cool with it (and it obviously would fit in perfectly with Grey Knights), but it simply is inappropriate as a Warhound in my opinion.

the the size matter? it is not like people are going to claim cover for it and all the other stuff that will buff it works no matter how high it is , stuff like void shield bunkers or +4inv landing pads doesn't care about model size .

Makumba wrote:
it is not like people are going to claim cover for it

Why not? There are a lot of things that can give cover to a Warhound.

So the rich kid one day decides to grab his parents' credit card and gets a Reaver, then bullies his dad to somehow put it together so that it looks somewhat like the intended model. Meanwhile the considerably less rich kid builds a Reaver out of what materials he can get, resulting in a correctly sized model that is far from a masterpiece but admirable considering what resources he had.

Who would you rather play?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So the rich kid one day decides to grab his parents' credit card and gets a Reaver, then bullies his dad to somehow put it together so that it looks somewhat like the intended model. Meanwhile the considerably less rich kid builds a Reaver out of what materials he can get, resulting in a correctly sized model that is far from a masterpiece but admirable considering what resources he had.

Who would you rather play?

Seriously man, dont bother reasoning with him. It will go no where.

I have more respect for player that pored their heart and soul into a scratch-built model, than I do a player that bought an expensive model that they also paid someone else to assemble and paint. The art of the hobby is very important to me, more so than the immersion. I'd rather play against a loving converted "Skaven" Imperial Guard army complete with converted "Reaver" played by army's creator, than against a professionally painted Forge World army played by a snob with the most money.

SJ

I think you guys are kind of erecting a strawman here in the desire to paint this as some kind of, like, us vs the 1% morality play. I have yet to see a player refuse to play against a well-built and painted scratchbuilt Reaver.

The problem is that unlike tanks or even a Warhound, the Reaver is such that it's very difficult to scratchbuild, let alone scratchbuild well. The Lucius warhound is all boxes and some PVC pipes for legs, but the Reaver is all curved shapes and tapers. It's going to be prohibitively expensive and require a level of talent with plasticard most people, myself included, do not possess to scratchbuild one that looks good.

Makumba 571236 6404735 wrote:the the size matter?

Yes, the size matters, as well as the gun muzzle heights and so on. The whole game revolves around TLOS, so using a model that is a little shorter and substantially less wide and less long with a smaller footprint and the same weapon loadout leads to a situation where it's an unfair advantage.

Seriously, look at the size difference.



I like the model a lot. I won one in a contest, FFS, so I'm especially grateful to Dreamforge. That doesn't make it a reasonable proxy though.

You come up with rules to play it as a Knight, I'm totally down with it.

Lets not go there.....there is already a thread on the dreamforge vs. warhound .....there are plenty of opinons there, so please, lets not beat the dead horse.


Also, I can agree.....unless a person who proxying a cardboard box to determine if they wanted to make/buy a better model, I would not want to play against it either.

For example, in one of our games, a guy was considering getting a hierophant, and it was a casual game, so we let him proxy a toy for it - it was about the same size.

We were fine with it - it was a test.
Now, if six months later, he was still using the toy (a banha plushie, to be exact) that would be a bit ....cheesy.

However, if instead he had a scratch built one that he did a decent job at, I would happily welcome it.

I proxy super heavies all the time, I do it to test them before I either buy or build one. When I do proxy them, I try to make sure they are of the same size and shape.

After a game or two, I usually have a decent idea if they are worth getting, and retire the proxy.

I notice that some of the posters here are quite ...."passionate" about the poor quality proxies, and honestly, it sounds like a personal issue...as someone they know of did something specific they did not approve of. I would say....leave that behind you - not everyone wanting to proxy something is jerk - so its a good idea not to project issues in the past on someone else who is not that guy...

I think this thread is about done...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Who would you rather play?

Again, none of the above. I don't have to choose between two awful models, I can just reject them both.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Who would you rather play?

Again, none of the above. I don't have to choose between two awful models, I can just reject them both.

Clearly you have concerns about bad looking models, and as I know I appreciate a game where the terrain and models all look good, I can see that as reasonable some of the time.

However, I would ask, does this mean you are ok with good looking scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model?

if not, why not?

davethepak wrote:
However, I would ask, does this mean you are ok with good looking scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model?

I'm fine with scratchbuilds if they match the shape and size of the original model and match the quality and level of detail. The problem is that the vast majority of titan scratchbuilds don't even come close to that standard. Details are virtually nonexistent (plain tubes for guns, missing rivets, etc) , assembly quality is severely lacking (glue puddles, gaps, corners that aren't quite the right angle, etc), and it's generally just a pile of cardboard in the rough shape of a titan. The intent is clearly to get access to the powerful titan rules while spending an absolute minimum of time and money on the model. In the unlikely event that the purpose was clearly to build a unique model where scratchbuilding was the only option to execute the artist's vision and the result is a high-quality model then I'll be quite happy to play against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a quick google search for titan images to demonstrate:

This is a great scratchbuild (at least it probably will be when it's finished):



The assembly quality is great, there's plenty of fine detail work, and the result is clearly going to be an awesome model. And, if anything, it's probably going to take more time and effort than just buying the FW one, so it's clearly not just a minimal-effort attempt to get D-weapons. Now compare that with this one:



It gets the size and shape right, but it's just an awful model. And, not surprisingly, it looks like it's armed with two D-weapons.

Peregrine - I can agree with some of this sentiment...but I think this is the core of the matter right here...

The intent is clearly to get access to the powerful titan rules while spending an absolute minimum of time and money on the model.

While I can totally agree that I would not respect the player who did the this, not everyone who fails to do this...

In the unlikely event that the purpose was clearly to build a unique model where scratchbuilding was the only option to execute the artist's vision and the result is a high-quality model then I'll be quite happy to play against it

.

Is the first player.

Honestly. Sounds like you have had some bad experiences with the former types - which I can understand. But not everyone who is not a master model maker but wants to scratchbuild is a jerk.
There is a wide range. This is a blend of motivation (i.e. wants to win and not work for it) and skill (not a great scratch builder). The two do not always meet.

This is one of the biggest challenges in many things - when the motivation of someone in the past (i.e. a jerk) has created such an impression, that others who have may have independent but similar actions are compared to the same motivation.

for example, I am considering scratchbuilding a tau orca. Why? Because after playing it a few times with a proxy, I think it can actually work in a few games (dies about 1/2 the time before it can unload).
I just can't justify the cost for the full model, and have no need for one that has an interior (I don't care for the interior).

Does that make me a jerk? Anyone who even remotely looks at the orca would quickly realize that I am not getting one to be a power gamer (it is just terrible).
I just love the thing. But thats a lot of cash to justify.
Note, I did not say spend....I already have 8 genuine gw/fw superheavies. But most of them I felt the cost/appearance/use on the table were worth buying.
The orca I don't - its just too expensive for my desire to spend (again, not my means - but my personal value equation).

Now, while I do a decent job at building things, the orca will be a challenge. I think I can pull it off, but its not "the only option" but its what I choose to do.
It will be decent, and it wlll be painted to a high standard, and it will have a base with a cool diorama on it - but it won't be a "real" forgeworld (or recast) orca.

Not everyone with a proxy is a jerk, and not everyone with a real model isn't.

How about we judge people by how they play the game with us on the table?

OP, bring your titan....I will bring my orca.

I like the model a lot. I won one in a contest, FFS, so I'm especially grateful to Dreamforge. That doesn't make it a reasonable proxy though.

neither gets cover from terrain on tables , unless someone plays on multi layer city fight tables and how many of those are used , considering how OP demons get with them ? Both will see everything and there is nor problem of getting cover from them , because D weapons ignore cover, invs etc Game expiriance wise It doesn't have to be on the table , you just roll if you get through its void shields and the void shield bunker ones protecting it and it just point and click removed 3+ vehicles per turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Anywayz i rather have some Japanese robot (for example the metal gear robot as warhound proxy) then some of these self built titans made from toilet rolls, there are masters out there with plasticard but i have also seen stuff that made my stomach turn.

Why do I have to put up with either? I don't want garbage "scratchbuilds" in my games, and I don't want cheap walmart toys as proxies.

Did you ignore my previous point? There are people that have a different view than yourself, all i hear is I,I,I! we get your rigid stance on these things.
I am asking if you understand that there are people who don't have a problem with that.

He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?

To all those that "just walk away" or "refuse to play", you guys must have a much bigger pool of opponents to draw from than I do if you are so picky as to alienate people over a model. Personally, I invite people in to play the game rather than push people out of the "club".

SJ

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?

I never mentioned anything on my scratchbuilts , and i never tried to push my beliefs on them, i just tried to ask if he understands that there are people who don't share his view.
Try again when you understand what i am saying.

Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand that there are people who don't share YOUR view.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand that there are people who don't share YOUR view.

I said this,

I hope you understand that there are people that have less rigid stance on what is allowed on the game table than yourself. These people can enjoy the game even if the models are not approved by the GW inquisition. If you do not like it that is your prerogative.

Notice the last sentence? Discussion closed.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
He doesn't have to understand, it's his right to refuse to play them. Why are you trying to push your beliefs on him? It's not like he demanded you remove your proxies from the table. He just walks away. Why are you hounding people online asking them about your scratch builds?

Unless you take severe offense at an opponent bringing a lot of cheese to a game, dropping the game immediately simply because someone shows up with a shoddy scratchbuild is ridiculous. If you're going to turn someone down simply because you take offense at a models appearance (which is absurd, it's a model, the point of a proxy is to see if you want to invest the money and time in either buying the set or hand-building a high-quality scratch model), you should at least pay your opponent the gas he used to drive there. If the opposing football team shows up wearing pink uniforms due to a washer mishap, you don't have a right to refuse the game simply because of how they look. Unless they show up with ten quick build titans decked out with D weapons, you don't really have any right to refuse to play someone who packed up a kit of models, drove over to the location, unpacked, assembled, only to be turned down because one model is a poor looking scratch build the point of which is to look poor as it's just a stand in because he wants to know if he should invest time and/or money in and take time out of his life to build. Unless they've been using it for a year and clearly are just using it as a permanent model, turning them down for a battle is similar to the home owner's association suing you because there's a couple weeds in your yard and your grass is an inch too high. The point of the proxy is to test run something if you're competitive to see if it's worth buying or building yourself from scratch as a competitive unit to save money.

 Wyzilla wrote:
If you're going to turn someone down simply because you take offense at a models appearance (which is absurd, it's a model, the point of a proxy is to see if you want to invest the money and time in either buying the set or hand-building a high-quality scratch model), you should at least pay your opponent the gas he used to drive there.

There's a difference between a proxy used as a one-time thing to test a model before buying the real one and a proxy that's intended to be used indefinitely because you're too lazy or cheap to buy/build a real model. And in the case of a Reaver titan, where everyone knows already that it's a powerful game-winning unit and doesn't have to test it, there's no real reason to ever need a proxy.

And paying for my opponent's gas because they brought an ugly army is just a joke, right?

Unless they show up with ten quick build titans decked out with D weapons, you don't really have any right to refuse to play someone who packed up a kit of models, drove over to the location, unpacked, assembled, only to be turned down because one model is a poor looking scratch build the point of which is to look poor as it's just a stand in because he wants to know if he should invest time and/or money in and take time out of his life to build.

Sure I do. What are you going to do, hold a gun to my head and force me to play? And why is having one ugly proxy better than having ten? If you're justified in bringing one then why not bring ten to "test" your ten-titan list full of D-weapons?

The point of the proxy is to test run something if you're competitive to see if it's worth buying or building yourself from scratch as a competitive unit to save money.

And if you're playing competitively with titans you're doing it wrong. Apocalypse is about putting awesome armies on the table, not playing competitively in an utterly broken game variant that's full of overpowered balance mistakes just waiting to be exploited.