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 cincydooley wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

I think looking for a project run as cleanly as Rivet Wars is....optimistic

I wish I hadn't skipped Rivet Wars now looking back. But as for this one we'll see. I'm already heavily tempted by Arcadia Quest and if it's not a decent deal I'm waiting for retail.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Miniature Market has the SDE Kaelly the Nether Strider. So no stretch goal on that...

Yep - ordered mine the other day. Though I strongly expect we'll see her and Nyan Nyan and the other "singles" as optional add-ons/pledge boosters in the campaign.

That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...

 Salacious Greed wrote:


That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...

In general they can't have non-ks funded stuff sold as part of the KS. (the truth is they can as long as the snitch police doesn't complain to KS)

There is no reason to make any of the current stuff part of the KS. Why forfeit profit on product they have already made and can charge retail and get real money for right now. If the item is already produced and they already spent the capital to do it, then reap the rewards of retail release.

This is why this is so confusing. With Captian @ and Resin king Starfire, if this was a 'planned' event it seems like they would have held some of that stuff. King Starfire was seen overall as a 'lazy' release and while it is a cool model, a letdown from the rules aspect. If they just retread already retail stuff for insignificant discounts that is not going to be a 'good thing' .

Salacious Greed wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Miniature Market has the SDE Kaelly the Nether Strider. So no stretch goal on that...

Yep - ordered mine the other day. Though I strongly expect we'll see her and Nyan Nyan and the other "singles" as optional add-ons/pledge boosters in the campaign.

That might be epic fail to have already available heroes as stretch goals. I have no problem with them being optional add-ons. But boo on them if they're stretch goals. That does nothing for people who already have those, so no incentive...

Which is why I said optional add-on. They wouldn't have stuff available at retail as a stretch goal I wouldn't think.

nkelsch wrote:
This is why this is so confusing. With Captian @ and Resin king Starfire, if this was a 'planned' event it seems like they would have held some of that stuff. King Starfire was seen overall as a 'lazy' release and while it is a cool model, a letdown from the rules aspect. If they just retread already retail stuff for insignificant discounts that is not going to be a 'good thing' .

Maybe they were caught off guard by the CMON split too? Or (more likely imo) Capt. R and the New Starfire and Kaelly were minis produced using CMON money, so they're legally required to release them via whatever contract they had with CMON.

I'm sure they'll have plenty of stretch goals ready.

From Deke

Regarding Early Birds:
We understand the love/hate people have for Early Birds. (I've supported many KS myself.) From a company perspective they are great for creating that initial surge that starts a campaign off strong. We will make sure to let you know a day in advance of when the Kickstarter will be launching both here and on our facebook, but can't guarantee everyone who wants an early bird will get it. However, the base level pledge we have put together represents an exceptional deal and nobody should feel worse for not having gotten the Early Bird.

Regarding Forgotten King:
Teleporting, 1AP Stranglethorn—that's just when he's not mad at you for having all that beautiful treasure and loot while his kingdom lies in ruins....

Regarding Distribution:
We will have more details on that this month.

All of which makes it sound a little bit farther off this month.

Would have been fun to see this go toe to toe with Arcadia Quest. Both companies would definitely have to bring their A game to sway people's pledges (or just get both like a lot of us plan on).

Who knows, maybe they'll still do it.

Looks like Recon will definitely be a go next weekend. Why not have a big 4 way KS battle between CMON, Sodapop, Mantic, and MERCS?

Fun for the whole family!

No news on the go live date yet but some small snippets:

There will only be one pledge level (but it's likely there will be an early bird version of it).

No exclusives everything will be available later.

There may be further RK crossovers it's an option they are looking at but nothing further has been said on that point.

I'm definitely down with the no exclusives thing!

Hmm, no exclusives means no incentive to pledge during the KS. Just wait for this to hit retail at a discount if the KS isn't lower than that discount.

I'm definitely anti-exclusives generally speaking.

But I feel like a kickstarter should have at least one, actual exclusive. Just make it an alt-pose sort of deal, if you want to keep everyone happy.

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Hmm, no exclusives means no incentive to pledge during the KS. Just wait for this to hit retail at a discount if the KS isn't lower than that discount.

Well, I guess that's the trick, isn't it? Hopefully not too many people feel that way or there won't be a game to hit retail. Unlike Mantic where you pretty much know that when they launch a game on Kickstarter, they were probably going to release it anyway, I'm not getting the same vibe with TFK. I say that because a smallish company like SPM (who don't have the best reputation when it comes to their involvement in kickstarters) almost certainly don't need the grief of dealing with one all on their own. Nobody likes getting kicked in the nuts but when you run your own KS you are essentially inviting the public to do exactly that as a form of criticism. Sod that!

So I think if SPM had the money to turn TFK into a full blown SDE 2.0, churn out some copies from the factory and get them into the hands of the retailers (preferably before Arcadia does the same).. without going via KS.. then they would absolutely do it. If this KS tanks, we might still see TFK released as an expansion per the original plan with a PDF copy of the 2.0 rulebook a few months down the line.. but apart from a few hero or mini boss releases I wouldn't be surprised if SDE faded away.

I have an idea for a KS exclusive for these guys, a Chinese New Year Scapegoat, he foils all their plans, appears catching everyone of guard every single time and gives negative status effects to all heroes!

If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...

...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?

 Alpharius wrote:
If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...

...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?

Depends?

Have Sodapop ranked in tons of cash from their previous Kickstarters? Not likely.

How many is 'only a few'? 3? 30? Mantic & CMON Kickstarters end up having a hundred or so Stretch goals, so 30 could be a few compared to that.

Exclusive Items = Not Preorder? I don't see how it makes any difference.


Using our own project as an example: I had fewer stretch goals planned then anything that CMON or Mantic have had planned, the only exclusives was a set of fancy D6, and we would have released the game either way. So it 'could' have been seen as a preorder, but without Kickstarter we'd probably only be releasing the 5th model for it this month rather then the 26th.

Slygess, I agree that this probably needs the backing to get made. But why give them near retail money months in advance, with nothing "special" in return. KS is, in the gaming/miniature community, pretty much about the special add-ons and stretch goals. So this is less and less something I need to pay attention to. Without CMON, I see SDE not having the staying power.

Alph, yes, this has pretty much become a "please make this happen, but no special rewards or considerations for all of your money!" Unless they pull something epic out, this will probably become a pass.....

Just because it isn't exclusive doesn't necessarily mean it won't be a good deal. If they're offering new figure bundles, extra loot or dice, 3d tokens to replace the cardboard, that is going to get nicely packaged later on down the line to sell at retail, I'm totally cool with that. No worse than what FFP did with Brimstone. Nothing there was really "exclusive," with the exception of one figure's sculpt.


I'm interested, but like you said, why pay at or near retail without something to sweeten the pot? Preorder or not, call it what you will, but if you want my money upfront for who knows how many months, there's got to be something there to make me want to commit, besides just my generosity and desire to see the underdog succeed.

My other big worry is just how long it'll take for fulfillment.

To paraphrase an old television advert (you have to imagine it in a badly dubbed European accent:

"Ah, CMoN, with these exclusives, you are really spoiling us!"

Your logic makes a ton of sense when you apply it to pre-orders and indeed I do exactly the same thing when it comes to buying games for my PC.. I'll only ever pre-order something if it comes with some decent incentives, otherwise I'll wait until I can get it for ~£5 on Steam. But with the way that CMoN behave (and the founders of other 'big' Kickstarter projects) it becomes easy to forget what the point of KS is - it is to help make something a reality. If you want to help make that happen, you pledge some money and the very existence of the thing that you backed is supposed to be it's own reward. But in the aftermath of Zombicide and pretty much every Mantic KS, a bare bones kickstarter is a very hard sell and that's a crappy deal when you consider that the people who run those kinds of projects are often the ones most in need of your initial investment.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
My other big worry is just how long it'll take for fulfillment.

I think that's one of the other reasons why we are going to see a no-frills project from SPM. They have to keep it simple so they can have any hope of delivering on time - and by on time, I mean within six months of the KS ending. Their current predicament might well be a mess of their own making but SPM really are in a jam right now. Their requirements (Need an improved base product, low overheads, minimal turn-around time) are pretty much in direct contrast to that of the average KS backer (Good value for money, lots of extras, no need to be loyal to a brand). I just hope that they have a low funding target

 Alpharius wrote:
If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...

...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?

Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),

so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment

and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)

 Siygess wrote:
Your logic makes a ton of sense when you apply it to pre-orders and indeed I do exactly the same thing when it comes to buying games for my PC.. I'll only ever pre-order something if it comes with some decent incentives, otherwise I'll wait until I can get it for ~£5 on Steam. But with the way that CMoN behave (and the founders of other 'big' Kickstarter projects) it becomes easy to forget what the point of KS is - it is to help make something a reality. If you want to help make that happen, you pledge some money and the very existence of the thing that you backed is supposed to be it's own reward. But in the aftermath of Zombicide and pretty much every Mantic KS, a bare bones kickstarter is a very hard sell and that's a crappy deal when you consider that the people who run those kinds of projects are often the ones most in need of your initial investment.

I totally agree with you. However I have a rather cynical view of the world when it comes to KS and Retail game companies. Whether it be Mantic, Reaper or CMON, I can feel reasonably good about the amount of money they are asking for their stuff, because I know I am getting a deal with their KS's. (In this discussion, I have nothing against SPM, saying they will offer their game for near retail price is only for purposes of this argument.) So, let us pretend they offer TFK for $100 [retail price], $90 for Early Birds. Now, my problem with this is that they are a company, that when selling to retailers, make their profit margin by selling at 50% retail cost. So for them to collect the full retail value on a KS is really me paying them 50% profit on top of their retail profit. Some people are going to scream "But we're MAKING the game!" Yes, YOU are paying to have the game made, and then the entire 50% that they sell it retailers is profit, instead of them paying off past cost incursions. So, when a retail company like this comes to a KS and doesn't offer ANYTHING to recognize their supporters, I find it very hard to rally any support their project.

There was another KS, Kingdom Builder, a pre-existing complete game, with two expansions, and an obviously established fanbase. That game only offered one KS exclusive addition to the game, but did upgrade like one or two parts of the game. Other than that, there were no stretch goals or anything else, and that game made a crapton of money as basically a pre-order. So, I guess it really depends on the fanbase, but selling a game where you don't recognize that all the KS backers are pretty much financing your profit margin doesn't appeal to me. So I don't really go in for established companies that don't offer any incentives or recognition of their backers doing the financial heavy lifting, as KS is really the "easy way out" for these companies, instead of securing loans to make their product. This really means that they make more money off of their product, both short term and long term.

The real group hurt in this example is all of the game carrying stores out there, both FLGS's and chains. The game maker has no production costs to cover anymore, so they make much (double or more) greater profits selling to any of these stores who will carry their products now.

This wasn't an indictment against anyone who wants to support a company doing this, or who really believes that without them, this product just wouldn't get made. Just pointing out my view of these KS economics, and how it is so 'win-win' for these companies, and that I don't think it is effectively "fair" for them to ask the public to foot the complete bill to make this, but not offer any incentives or swag to that public.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
If there aren't going to be a lot of stretch goals, and if nothing is exclusive...

...is this the most Obvious Pre-Order Kickstarter ever?

Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),

so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment

and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)

Fair enough!

Makes sense too...

I'll certainly be checking this one out at launch.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


Reading between the lines Soda Pop have (probably) spent pretty much all the cash they had buying out their contact with CMON for SDE (& Relic Knights?),

so while most of the development work for Forgotten King is done I'm fairly confident they can't afford to pay for moulds/production/shipping without extra investment

and since they don't want to be beholden to an outside agency like CMON KS is really the only option other than waiting a year or two for profits from their current line to hit the point where they can afford to finish Forgotten King (which is too late given todays gamer expects several releases a year or they consider a game 'dead)

Will they put as a KS risk: "Hey, if this KS doesn't do well and doesn't fund, we may go out of business and never release a SDE product ever again as we miss-managed our company and dried up our cash flow."

Anyone who says Sodapop needs KS as a 'marketing tool' is full of it. If they put TFK on shelves tomorrow, they would sell out exactly like they have every other SDE release they put up in the past year.

I will be buying it because I want the models and the game... but if sodapop runs itself into a ditch and can't recover, so be it.

Regardless of whether exclusives are on offer, the main things holding me back from pledging on this would be:

1) SPM/ND doesn't have a very good track record for fulfilment right now. In fact, it's fething awful.
2) At least a year's wait.
3) International postage costs - not an entitled whine, you understand, but if everything will be available later at retail there's no reason to gamble on their inevitable delays bumping the postage into another couple of price rises, especially if they don't have a China-shipping option.
4) More immediate things to do with my money. Hell, including the already-released SDE expansions since I only have the base box.
5) AU dollar is pretty bad again right now, though stable again. In a year's time it may well have increased in value again, and a discount retail purchase may well have it cheaper than KSing it.

Teaser video - I'd be surprised if this deosn't go live before the end of this weekend - no date yet though.

The wait is almost over.

 DaveC wrote:
Teaser video - I'd be surprised if this deosn't go live before the end of this weekend - no date yet though.

Depends on if they have gotten their KS approval or not. Many campaigns don't have their ducks in a row and are delayed a week or more due to that.

Looks like they've submitted it but are waiting approval if all is OK they should have time to start by the weekend - if - given they've run foul of KS before I'd imagaine they have been careful with this submission.

Soda Pop Miniatures Everything is pending approval by Kickstarter in terms of timing guys, we will hit the launch button as soon as we can.

You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.

I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.

I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.

There isn't enough already?

I mean, it wont personally affect me. If I back this (and that's.....iffy) I'm going to be like, a last day backer, and there are going to be a lot of conditionals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, "waiting for approval" is synonmous with "not entirely prepared," so that's a little disconcerting.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
You'd think people would learn by now that you can submit it way earlier than your actual projected date, letting you start when YOU want if you got it submitted early enough.

I kind of hope it starts this week, get some healthy competition going.

I think they NEED it to launch this week. I think it is dangerous for AQ to end without TFK not sticking a finger in that pie. Not at all sure if there will be a drastic impact, but without knowing what the TFK value or pledge even is, there is no reason for people to not stick with their already AQ pledges.

I don't think this is a zero-sum either, I suspect a lot of people who are in the market for these types of minis are already going to pledge both or already chose to pledge one due to brand loyalty, design or company politics. People not pledging AQ for TFK are probably already decided and I think fence-sitters are relatively low.

I could be wrong tho. Sodapop needs a Friday launch.

This is a slight aside but

... Is it going to get hard to find the CMoN produced SDE stuff?
I want a second Von Drakk set but I've been putting off buying it.

Soda Pop Miniatures No, as we run low stocks of previous editions of product, we will be reprinting them as essential parts of our games world. Just with updated packaging and any updated print changes between editions. Super Dungeon Product will get easier to find, not harder.

aside no. 2 Kaelly is now on sale

http://sodapopminiatures.com/super-dungeon-explore/kaelly-the-nether-strider

So they will be running down current stock and then repackaging them presumably without the the CMoN logo.


Fae Alchemist Hero artwork from the SPM forum


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New tile art preview

With the pending Forgotten King Kickstarter, here is a sneak peak at the upcoming boards - beware the Lordship Ruins and the minions found within! - The Forgotten King main game includes 6 double sided game tiles to expand your dungeons.