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 TheCustomLime wrote:
No, it wouldn't. Infernus Pistols, even if they aren't available to any marine chapter, are something that only require one entry either in the special weapons or ranged weapons list. The "Red Thirst" entry can be covered by Chapter Tactics as can Fast.

That sound fair
"I took Chapeter Tactics: Blood Angels, Now I can take a Weapon no one else in the book can."

Looking at the Iron Hands supplement, BA would totally work
Make Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinor, Astorath. Then make relics that give you items that'd let you approximate the others.

Chapter Tactics, DoA and Red thirst, Vanguards gain rage, Assault as Troops.

Special Euipment: Flamestorm for Predators, and a couple weapons for Iron Clads. For 5 points per model Honour Guard get Jpacks and are allowed to buy PF and PPistols.

I really don't think infernus needs to stay, but maybe just a line letting Assault Marines pack 1 special weapon too.

Add a new unit (I'd think Apothecaries that can Wolf Guard out)

Done. Very close, very simple, missing little (if anything) that matters. Before you ask, yes I've played BA and I think this gets everything needed and none of the silly Marines +1 stuff that made us all rage the last BA codex (you're not keeping fast vehicles anyway).

And why would we lose fast vehicles? Luscius engines eminatefrom the fluff. They don't go faster because of the color scheme or because Ward wanted a vindicator to shoot further...

Dammit people, they're Lucifer engines not Lucius.

 Orblivion wrote:
Dammit people, they're Lucifer engines not Lucius.

Sir Lucius left foot engines

BaalSNAFU wrote:
And why would we lose fast vehicles? Luscius engines eminatefrom the fluff. They don't go faster because of the color scheme or because Ward wanted a vindicator to shoot further...

But.... da red ones go faster!

I am curious how Space wolf players would feel about their codex being rolled into SM codex. It could be done easier than the BA Codex. CT could read something like: CT:SW grants the ability to take 4 HQ choices. Scouts gain BS and WS +1. Assault Marines lose 1 to WS and BS while gaining FC. This detachment has access to Thunderwolf Calvary while losing all access to any and all fliers.

Couple of SC that grant armywide buffs and you are done.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
And why would we lose fast vehicles? Luscius engines eminatefrom the fluff. They don't go faster because of the color scheme or because Ward wanted a vindicator to shoot further...

But.... da red ones go faster!

well maybe this time around matt ward can make BAs and Orks pals and they can high five each other while painting everything red.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am curious how Space wolf players would feel about their codex being rolled into SM codex. It could be done easier than the BA Codex. CT could read something like: CT:SW grants the ability to take 4 HQ choices. Scouts gain BS and WS +1. Assault Marines lose 1 to WS and BS while gaining FC. This detachment has access to Thunderwolf Calvary while losing all access to any and all fliers.

Couple of SC that grant armywide buffs and you are done.

Sounds good to me. Heck, drop the Thunderwolves for Fenrisian Wolves. Far fluffier.

What if the fundamental reason for being against another “Codex: Marine of a Different Color” if you don’t plan on buying it?
It won’t cost you a dime and the guy on the other side of the table his happy with his “Codex: Marine of a Different Color”.

The cost is the overhead of keeping everything up to date. Having 4 marines codices means 4 separate books must be updated each edition to keep everything current. Furthermore, updating the space marine variant chapters means other books that badly need to be updated have to wait to while GW is essentially just adding additional options and playstyles to the already perfectly playable Space Marine army. This was particularly bad in 5e, when codices were updated slowly and every other update was a Space Marine book of some kind. Both Dark Eldar and Necrons, who badly needed an update just to remain playable had to wait while GW updated Space Marines, and then Space Wolves, and then Blood Angels, and then (for Necrons) Grey Knights. Had Blood Angels and Space Wolves been consolidated into the Space Marine book, both those armies could have been updated early on in 5e, rather than languishing for years in a nearly unplayable state.

Outside of Grey Knights (and even they are borderline), I have never really understood the need for so many separate space marine books. They all share essentially the same models, with a great many of the differences being either rules that aren't even reflected on the models themselves (DoA, Red Thirst) or just a different bit on an otherwise identical chasis (Bhaal predators are just predators with a different turret). There are a few exceptions, such as the SW wolf riders or the oversized DA landraider, and of course the special characters, but otherwise its essentially all the same models running a couple of variant rules, which could easily be included under the unit purchasing options with minimal increase in book space. Having separate books creates a massive amount of unnecessary redundancy that seems to only interfere with the codex update cycle.

All you would really need to roll the armies together is let the player choose between various chapter tactics. You could choose Standard Chapter Tactics, Blood Angel Chapter Tactics, Space Wolf Chapter Tactics, etc. Assault Marines with Standard Chapter Tactics would benefit from Tactics, while those with Blood Angel Chapter Tactics would have DoA and Red Thirst and be purchasable as troops. For units like Bhaal Predators, they could be rolled into the parent models entry with only a couple of lines. For example, a hypothetical predator entry that included the Blood Angel Options could read as follows:

A Predator Must Take One of the Following Weapon Turrets:

Autocannon: +0 pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon: +10 pts
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon: +10 pts - Blood Angel Chapter Tactics Only

A Predator Can Also Purchase the Following Sponsons

Heavy Bolters: +10 pts
Lascannons: +20 pts
Heavy Flamers: +10 pts - Blood Angel Chapter Tactics Only

Give Vehicle Fast and Scout +25 pts - Blood Angel Chapter Tactics Only

There you go. Three lines, and a Bhaal predator has been added to the main codex. The same approach can be used to the likes of Librarian Dreadnoughts, Death Company, etc. and to incorporate special wargear like infernus pistols. You would only need a couple of full page entries for things like the Wolf Riders. Special characters would need a full page as well, but I think a lot of those were added to the specialist codices just to pad them out. Choose one or two from each of BA, DA and SW to give full entries and either leave the rest out, or just provide condensed entries. Perhaps a "Heroes of the Blood Angels" page that list all of the minor special characters. Heck, condense some of the Codex Space Marine special characters in the same manner and you could probably recover a look of space used to incorporated those from the variant chapters.

I am that if GW really wanted to put their mind to it, they could roll the Space Marine armies into one codex no problem. They obviously won't, but the task is far from impossible.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Okay, sir, here is the problem with that argument. Chaos Space Marines have appreciably different units than the Space Marines do. Things like Dinbots, Bezerkers, Noise Marines and Defilers don't have direct equivalents within the loyalist marines.

What Blood Angels have are just units from Codex: Space Marines with a couple of special rules on top. In addition, you have a lot of common units between Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Blood Angels.

They have Some units in common with Codex: Space Marines. The only unit I can think of that is not affected by a Blood Angel Rule it Land Speeders.
Here are something else to think about. To make Blood Angels work in Codex: Space Marines you would have to add Chapter Tactics to Dreads and something Special to All of the Vehicles exept Land Speeders.

Captains, Command Squads, Librarians, Sternguard Veterans, Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Land Raidesr, Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer, Drop Pods, Rhinos, Land Speeders Bikes, Vanguard Veterans, Stormravens, Dreadnoughts, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Predators and Devastator Squads. I think Chapter Masters too. Yeah, I think that's more than some.

Really, all you have to do is add Fast as a CT for Vehicles.

And each of them needs to have Special Equipment/Rules added to them, except for Terminator Squads, Drop Pods. Land Speeders and Stormravens

Captains: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Command Squads [Apothecaries]: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols, Jump Packs
Librarians: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Sternguard Veterans: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Chaplains: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Land Raiders [All]: Deep Strike
Rhinos: Fast
Bikes: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Vanguard Veterans: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Dreadnoughts: Do not Have
Whirlwinds: Fast
Vindicators: Fast
Predators: Fast
Devastator Squads: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols
Assault Squads: Red Thirst, Infernus Pistols and make a Troop Choice

Each one of those would require a “Special Entry” to cover them.
[Apologies to the Black Templars for this]
It only took 4 Entries and Combat Tactics to roll in the Black Templars, but ask any Black Templar player if they are now playing Black Templars, you will probably get one of two reposnses.
1] Yes, but they do not feel right
2] No I play White Scars that happen to look like Black Templars and it still does not feel right.

This last part should be enough a reason not to roll them into Codex: Space Marines. All Rolling them into Codex: Space Marines will do is alienate players.
Ask Martel about it, even though he is getting hammered constantly and has even been told to create a “Count As” Blood Angels army has shown his loyalty to a now bottom tier book to the point of he would rather loose than go to another Codex.

Honestly I'm kinda sorta mad that they didn't just bring out a supplement for BT. Rather than having a single company of SM, why not a supplement for crusaders to flesh them out? Maybe even give them some extra benefits to allow them to be more CC oriented? But no we got to make companies of marines a thing. Really though, in an ideal world. I would love to see all loyalist marines rolled into a single codex. From there, develop supplements to give more choices to every army. Some unique items, a few characters, stuff to swap it around. Ultramarines could get some stuff to represent their anti-nid theming, Salamanders could get a lot of relics and artifice to tinker around with, etc. Of course, they wouldn't be as expensive as supplements are by GW to make up for that. Alas, GW does not function like that. At all.

The Predator Destructor, Predator Annihilator and Baal Predator all have different loadouts. A Baal Pred can only take AC or a Flamestorm Cannon. It can take heavy flamers or heavy bolters as sponsons. It is a Fast choice. You could take 3 of these if you want. You could also take 3 of the other Predators as heavy choices.

Putting the BA into Codex Space Marines and utterly destroy how they are played and the fluff about them, it is not really very easily possible. You would have so many special rules and extras that half of the book would be about regular SM rules and the other half would be about the BA rules.

On a side note, has anyone else wondered if GW rules guys actually had this discussion and came to the conclusion that it was really not viable for the BA codex to be Rick Rolled? I am thinking that they did, but about ALL of the current line and found that the easiest one to Roll in would be the BT codex. Sorry BT players.

why thank you Phanixis, now we're going to get to the meat and potatoes of why people really want to see these codexs rolled into one , its because of the belief that their codex will be updated sooner. while this may have been an issue in the past the new way of doing things makes this argument obsolete, you see codexs are now updated at a very fast rate. Actually who would stand to benefit from a single codex would be more of the zenos dexs, yet funny enough the most powerful dexs in the game are now

Eldar,Tau, Chaos Daemons, Necrons, arguably Nids and or reg SM. likely in that order I might add and DA and Chaos SM have been updated this edition. SoB had a band aid thrown on them so that doesn't really count.

That leaves DE and Grey Knights , who are playable , IG who are coming out very very soon and orks are supposed to follow soon after that leaves SW,BA, DE,GN needing a 6th update and of those last 4 two arent in Dire straights.

Also like I said if we are stream lining just for the sake of quicker updates lets roll Chaos all into one book and make Inquisition include Grey Knights and SoB. a few supplements and there you have it

The problem with that is that shoving the two Chaos books doesn't work. If we go by that logic, we have to roll IG with SM. Simply put, Chaos Daemons don't function at all like SM. Not a single unit really is all that similar (discounting Daemon Princes of course )

 StarTrotter wrote:
The problem with that is that shoving the two Chaos books doesn't work. If we go by that logic, we have to roll IG with SM. Simply put, Chaos Daemons don't function at all like SM. Not a single unit really is all that similar (discounting Daemon Princes of course )

and? keep separate units, the book will be bigger and cost you more out right sure but if they can shove all those chapters into one book then they can put two teams that work together in one book and the units that don't fit well guess what? you get to make supplements for just like all of the SW,DA, BA players get ...... BAM charge you 75 for the basic codex and 50 for a supplement. GW will wet their pants with joy

Except they hardly work together. That's what I'm getting at really. Chaos Daemons don't even have the same base rules as CSM. They function on entirely different levels and can't even be grouped up.

CSM is already basically all traitor armies (despite having dramatic differences from Berzerkers, to Ksons, to Emperor's Children, to Plague Marines, to zombie hordes, to culstists). It's already gotten to that point. But chaos daemons can't just be shoved in as readily. This isn't like where two codices have tactical marines and tactical marines and have assault marines as troops. This is a codex where literally Plaguebearers, Nurgling, Pink HOrrors, and more have all dramatically different capabilities than SM. Although, maybe then GW would finally let there be some synergy where I can have daemonic sacrifices to summon my scary monsters (admittedly not the most tactical but gosh darn it it's just so delicious!)

 StarTrotter wrote:
Except they hardly work together. That's what I'm getting at really. Chaos Daemons don't even have the same base rules as CSM. They function on entirely different levels and can't even be grouped up.

except they don't need to overlap or share they can each keep units and btw if they wanted to make them work together they could re-write it so that they could, the units that are cut from each book to trim the fat if you will, just end up in supplements. Just like everyone is suggesting for the BA, DA and SW would work.

The initial codex is bigger but so what the C:SM is already bigger than all the rest and if you fold in SW,BA and DA it only gets bigger, so why can't you make a big Chaos book if you wanted.

Rick Roll them all. 3 books. One for the Imperium, one for all things Chaos, and one for Xenos.

Book 1: IG, all Space Marines, and the new Knights as well as all supplements

Book 2: Chaos Deamons and Chaos Space Marines, 'Nids

Book 3: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks.

How happy would people be with this?



Forgot 3 factions in my rage filled moment.

Yes... just as planned. Although HERESY! What happened to Tyranids and Orks?

Book 4: Hordes (aka flamer bait)

I will miss my traitor guardsman though

To respond to another statement, my only complaint with supplements is that there is already a laundry list of supplements for Chaos. Every traitor legion is a possibility sense there is basically no means to truly represent them, then there is the iconic renegade warband that is quickly growing (Huron).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Rick Roll them all. 3 books. One for the Imperium, one for all things Chaos, and one for Xenos.

Book 1: IG, all Space Marines, and the new Knights as well as all supplements

Book 2: Chaos Deamons and Chaos Space Marines, 'Nids

Book 3: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks.

How happy would people be with this?



Forgot 3 factions in my rage filled moment.

No no no! Come now good sir! Obviously Nids and Orks should be a fourth book. The horde book. Necrons would probably work with book 3. Although, being tossed in with book 2 would be humorous trip down nostalgia lane. Ah chaos droids...

Nope ... I made the list ... I am right and you are wrong .... pbfft

 StarTrotter wrote:
Yes... just as planned. Although HERESY! What happened to Tyranids and Orks?

Book 4: Hordes (aka flamer bait)

I will miss my traitor guardsman though

To respond to another statement, my only complaint with supplements is that there is already a laundry list of supplements for Chaos. Every traitor legion is a possibility sense there is basically no means to truly represent them, then there is the iconic renegade warband that is quickly growing (Huron).

I hope you know startrotter I don't want the two books to come together ( although I do believe they should have far more synergy between the two books) I'm just pointing out that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Also I'm trying to prove what a slippery slope that is because if GW were to figure out that works then I don't think anything would stop them from putting books together and double tapping you for a supplement.

The only books I think should be brought together is to make Codex Inquisition include Grey Knights and SoB - and I say that cause its the only way I see SoB getting an honest update.

The Predator Destructor, Predator Annihilator and Baal Predator all have different loadouts. A Baal Pred can only take AC or a Flamestorm Cannon. It can take heavy flamers or heavy bolters as sponsons. It is a Fast choice. You could take 3 of these if you want. You could also take 3 of the other Predators as heavy choices.

Yes, they have different loadouts, but this isn't a big deal. The vast majority of units in this game have different loadouts, be they tactical squads, predators, leman russ or hammerheads, but you don't require separate codex entries for each loadout. For instance, when it comes to a Tau hammerhead, you don't have separate entries for the ion cannon and the railgun even though the weapons are radically different, because the tank's stats are otherwise the same. All you have to do is say the hammerhead can take either a railgun or an ion cannon and you are done.

Admittedly the modular example I provided for the Predator allowed to combinations that weren't permitted, such as a tank with TL assault cannons and lascannon sponsons. I didn't consider this critical to the way these tanks worked, but it you wanted the unit to run exactly as it is now, you could still run text like this:

Upgrade to a Bhaal Predator: +30 pts - Blood Angel Tactics Only
Replace the turret with a TL assault cannon
Replace the sponsons with either heavy bolters or heavy flamers
Vehicle Gains Fast and Scout
Vehicle becomes a Fast Attack Choice

Up to five lines now and it is a bit more cumbersome, but still quite a way away from a page long entry.

Putting the BA into Codex Space Marines and utterly destroy how they are played and the fluff about them, it is not really very easily possible. You would have so many special rules and extras that half of the book would be about regular SM rules and the other half would be about the BA rules.

As long as the rules are identical between the BA codex and the consolidated version, the army will play exactly the same on the table top. The ideas I discussed above, which exploit the vast redundancies between Space Marine books to consolidate Blood Angel special units with their parent units, as often they are just an alternate loadout as you pointed above, are a means by which these two books can be consolidated while retaining the BA playstyle without doubling the length of the book. In the case of the Bhaal predator, you are already using the predator stats, which are listed in the SM codex, all you are doing is swapping its weapons out for another set of weapons which are also listed in the SM codex, and giving it a couple of special rules already defined in the main rulebook. Essentially, every rule and piece of equipment for the Bhaal predator can already be found in the main rulebook and the SM codex, so the unit doesn't actually require a separate book. All you have to do is just declare BA can take the unit in the aforementioned configuration and you are done, with no need for a separate book or even a separate entry.

Rick Roll them all. 3 books. One for the Imperium, one for all things Chaos, and one for Xenos.

Book 1: IG, all Space Marines, and the new Knights as well as all supplements

Book 2: Chaos Deamons and Chaos Space Marines, 'Nids

Book 3: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks.

How happy would people be with this?

This wouldn't work. The reason Space Marine books can be consolidated is that they share the vast majority of equipment between them. Same model stats, same weapon stats, same vehicle stats, etc, so the tactical marine squad entry in one book is the same as in the next. So why have four books, all with the same standard marine stat line, all with the bolter stat line, all with the same stats for missile launcher, flamers, meltaguns, heavy bolters, lascannon, and sergeants, when you can just put a single tactical marine squad entry in one book? Yes, each chapter does get a unique special rule for their tactical squad, but it makes far more sense to grant SM get tactics, BA get red thirst, SW get counterattack under a single unit entry than repeat four separate unit entries across for separate books along with all the associated upgrade options just to change one or two special rules. Contrast this with say, consolidating Orks with Tau, where virtually nothing is identical. No shared statlines, no shared vehicle stats, no shared weapon stats, no shared equipment, no shared separate rules. The result would be exactly what you claimed would happen if SM and BA were consolidated, it would just be a book twice as long. It is the enormous redundancies between the Space Marine books that make consolidation possible, and those redundances don't exist at all with xenos and are limited when it comes to non-space marine factions.

 BlackArmour wrote:


also Blacksails , though I argued with you I want to point out that IF and I do mean IF this part was true and each of those codex supplements were in fact worth a snot ( I hold Farsight Enclaves as a standard) that I would in fact be on board. However I feel that my concerns of price and balance still remain very much valid. two things GW doesn't have a great rep for at all.

I know you argued with me, and I won't hold it against you.

And I would be on board supplements as well if they were priced appropriately and balanced. And yes, I agree GW hasn't had the best track record for this sort of thing.

We're on the same page here.

But that goes back to the whole BT aspect of this argument.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


also Blacksails , though I argued with you I want to point out that IF and I do mean IF this part was true and each of those codex supplements were in fact worth a snot ( I hold Farsight Enclaves as a standard) that I would in fact be on board. However I feel that my concerns of price and balance still remain very much valid. two things GW doesn't have a great rep for at all.

I know you argued with me, and I won't hold it against you.

And I would be on board supplements as well if they were priced appropriately and balanced. And yes, I agree GW hasn't had the best track record for this sort of thing.

We're on the same page here.

But that goes back to the whole BT aspect of this argument.

If only they'd go back to 3rd ed style supplements with fairly meaty rule and wargear changes. Unfortunately they abandoned those in 4th ed and that's why we've got this whole codex debate in the first place...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

If only they'd go back to 3rd ed style supplements with fairly meaty rule and wargear changes. Unfortunately they abandoned those in 4th ed and that's why we've got this whole codex debate in the first place...

Now, I didn't play before 5th, but from what I hear and read, it sounds like GW priced their supplements within the realm of reasonable once upon a time. I'd be all over supplements if they were worth their price, which they are very clearly not.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am curious how Space wolf players would feel about their codex being rolled into SM codex. It could be done easier than the BA Codex. CT could read something like: CT:SW grants the ability to take 4 HQ choices. Scouts gain BS and WS +1. Assault Marines lose 1 to WS and BS while gaining FC. This detachment has access to Thunderwolf Calvary while losing all access to any and all fliers.

Couple of SC that grant armywide buffs and you are done.

Personaly I would not like it at all.
And no it would not be easy at all, we have to many unique units and it would clutter up the Codex: Space Marines jutst like Blood Angles, Dark Anges would and Black Templars did.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

If only they'd go back to 3rd ed style supplements with fairly meaty rule and wargear changes. Unfortunately they abandoned those in 4th ed and that's why we've got this whole codex debate in the first place...

Now, I didn't play before 5th, but from what I hear and read, it sounds like GW priced their supplements within the realm of reasonable once upon a time. I'd be all over supplements if they were worth their price, which they are very clearly not.

Yeah, they were only $20 back then if I remember correctly. Only about 30-40 pages to be fair, but at least that was 1/3 fluff, 1/3 rules and 1/3 really cool army showcases/conversions. It was probably a little too much back then, especially considering that you HAD to have a Space Marine Dex to know the rules for most of your units, but it was chump change compared to modern supplements... not to mention that the actual game content in them is heinously tiny.

Still got my Space Wolves supplement and 5th ed FAQs kicking about though, always cool to look through it.



Oh, I've got to say though - as much as BA/SW/DA/etc could and probably should be folded into C:SM, having their own standalone codices is so much handier for us players...

Does anybody know what 20 dollars from that time would be equivalent to nowadays?

$27.17 according to http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=20&year1=2000&year2=2014

and I think $20 is high for those ones, the 60-70 page softcover full codex books were $20 still in 2006/2007.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am curious how Space wolf players would feel about their codex being rolled into SM codex. It could be done easier than the BA Codex. CT could read something like: CT:SW grants the ability to take 4 HQ choices. Scouts gain BS and WS +1. Assault Marines lose 1 to WS and BS while gaining FC. This detachment has access to Thunderwolf Calvary while losing all access to any and all fliers.

Couple of SC that grant armywide buffs and you are done.

Personaly I would not like it at all.
And no it would not be easy at all, we have to many unique units and it would clutter up the Codex: Space Marines jutst like Blood Angles, Dark Anges would and Black Templars did.

Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves

Non Special Character HQ units may take up to two items from the Space Wolves Wargear list. Tactical Squads may take a Veteran Sergeant equipped with Terminator armor for 25 points.

The Emperor's Executioners:
All Space Wolf non vehicle units are counted as having a CCW if they do not already have a melee weapon. In addition, Bike Squads may be counted as Calvary for 5 points per model and may equip items from the melee weapons lists, Storm Shields (See entry for relevant costs) but lose access to Attack Bikes.

Too be honest, Blood Angels have a bigger claim to a unique codex than Space Wolves do.