Blood Angels debate thread: Should we be rolled into Codex: Space Marines?

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**Blacksails**

Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

Yeah, or just made into the base book. A chapter's identity isn't base solely on the rules for them. A paint scheme and modeling will do far more for a chapter's feel than one or two special characters or units.

**MephistonLoD**

Blacksails wrote:
Came in a little late due to work.

Anyways, here are my thoughts.

I can't find a legitimate reason for BA to maintain an entirely different codex when everything 'unique' they have is either a variant of an existing unit, or a piece of wargear every other chapter should reasonably have access to as well.

Their dread options (bar death co) can be easily made into options on existing dreads for all chapters to have. Their reclusiarchs are fundamentally chaplains, and their sanguinary priests are basically apothecaries. One of these options already exists, and the other one should be an option for all marines anyways.

They already lost their unique claim to the Stormraven, so I don't see much of a reason for them to hang on to the concept of the Baal Pred. Those pred variants almost exist through FW anyways, and having a true tank option would be great for all marine chapters. BA would be the only ones with 'Fast', but the tank could have scout to fill the FA role a little better. Now everyone gets a little extra variety.

Special wargear like hand flamers and infernus pistols should be options available to anyone anyways. Things like Glaive Encarmines could be special to them, or just add an option to MC every power weapon in an honour guard squad. Then give honour guard a jet pack option, and they can act as a budget Sang Guard. I'm not opposed to Sang Guard being one of BA's exclusive units in a roll in, but I'd like to keep it to one, which I think should go to Death Company.

Death company would be their unique troops choice, like BTs Crusader squads.

Then you give them a CT, three SCs, maybe an upgrade SC, and call it a day.

Captures their feel, cuts the bloat, adds variety for all marine chapters, saves money buying multiple codices for largely redundant armies, and reduces the number of armies needed to balance the game.

I don't think BA need to hang on to the whole gamut of SCs they currently have, nor do they need a special psyker table. Every other marine book lost their special powers and rolls on BRB powers, so I think that's what BA should do as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MephistonLoD wrote:
For feth sakes, NO! This is such a stupid subject. It's never going to happen, for anyone thinking it can, you clearly no nothing about the Blood Angels if you think they can just "roll them into C:SM nicely".

Care to elaborate with a little more reasoning? Telling people they're wrong without stating why in a sensible manner isn't going to convince anyone.

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

Yeah, or just made into the base book. A chapter's identity isn't base solely on the rules for them. A paint scheme and modeling will do far more for a chapter's feel than one or two special characters or units.

This is a joke right?

**kronk**

Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

I don't disagree with this line of thought at all.

**AlmightyWalrus**

kronk wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

I don't disagree with this line of thought at all.

Of course, the entire problem is that the rumored BT supplement is nowhere to be seen, whereas the Imperial Fists 3rd Company got one...

**FirePainter**

Now I will admit to not being an expert on BA but aren't most of the "unique" units from the 5th edition codex and their previous codices did not have things like Baal preds, the sanguinor, sang guard? Honestly curious what has been unique about BA since their first codex back in 2nd?

**kronk**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
kronk wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

I don't disagree with this line of thought at all.

Of course, the entire problem is that the rumored BT supplement is nowhere to be seen, whereas the Imperial Fists 3rd Company got one...

As a BT player, a BT supplement is a nice-to-have, but not needed. I'm actually glad that the Imperial Fists got some love with a supplement. They were long overdue.

Sons of Dorn!

**Blacksails**

MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

**MephistonLoD**

Blacksails wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

Yeah I did, you said the look/how they're painted is what gives the feel of a Chapter, more so than their rules and the way they play? So... if I painted my BA blue, I would feel more like I was playing Ultramarines?

**AtoMaki**

MephistonLoD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

Yeah I did, you said the look/how they're painted is what gives the feel of a Chapter, more so than their rules and the way they play? So... if I painted my BA blue, I would feel more like I was playing Ultramarines?

Dude... There are players out there who use the BA codex, paint their models dark blue and play them as Night Lords (and I'm 5000% serious here)! Yeah, the Chaos Space Marine Night Lords. You can't go lower than that!

**Blacksails**

MephistonLoD wrote:

Yeah I did, you said the look/how they're painted is what gives the feel of a Chapter, more so than their rules and the way they play? So... if I painted my BA blue, I would feel more like I was playing Ultramarines?

If they were blue and looked like Ultras and you ran them as one of the assault companies using BA rules, yes.

Likewise, if you used C: SW, or C: CSM as examples, and used Berserker rules for death company/assault marines, but painted red with BA iconography, they'll still play and feel like BA.

The point is, the rules are a means to an end, and not the just the end. Rules are important, but they aren't the defining feature of the army. Case in point, the current BA codex back in 5th was a shooty book through and through, which is supposedly against how BA are supposed to play. So even with their actual book, they didn't play like their fluff. Rolling them in (implemented properly) wouldn't kill them or take away their feel; it would streamline and put some of the burden on the player building a force that played in a style according to the fluff.

The paint and models are the icing on top. Because an unpainted marine army kind of looks like every other unpainted marine army, regardless of what codex is being used.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

it is well established fluff the BA dont want to share the Baal pred nor the Lucius engines.. causes much friction between them and the mechanicus, dante actually sent a long-lost Emperor(?) titan to try to make up for it. They would not simply go around distributing it to all chapters.

**MephistonLoD**

AtoMaki wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

Yeah I did, you said the look/how they're painted is what gives the feel of a Chapter, more so than their rules and the way they play? So... if I painted my BA blue, I would feel more like I was playing Ultramarines?

Dude... There are players out there who use the BA codex, paint their models dark blue and play them as Night Lords (and I'm 5000% serious here)! Yeah, the Chaos Space Marine Night Lords. You can't go lower than that!

Right, but given the rules he's using they'd still feel like Blood Angels. I can take a Ferrari chassis, but replace everything inside with that of a Honda Civic... I'll still feel like i'm driving a Honda Civic.

**Blacksails**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

it is well established fluff the BA dont want to share the Baal pred nor the Lucius engines.. causes much friction between them and the mechanicus, dante actually sent a long-lost Emperor(?) titan to try to make up for it. They would not simply go around distributing it to all chapters.

Is this the same fluff that was also pertinent to the Stormraven?

Anyways, I'd still give BA vehicles all fast as part of their CT, but the Baal pred aspect can be fluffed in, just like the Stormraven.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MephistonLoD wrote:

Right, but given the rules he's using they'd still feel like Blood Angels. I put a take a Ferrari chassis, but replace everything inside with that of a Honda Civic... I'll still feel like i'm driving a Honda Civic.

Except removing the codex and streamlining it with the vanilla codex would not remove the feel of BA.

They'd still have their army wide special rules via a well written CT. They'd have access to nearly everything they currently with the redundancy cut out. It would feel almost identical. Instead of a Sanguinary Priest, you'd have an Apothecary, which you can go ahead and just call 'Sanguinary Priest' anyways.

My Mordian Iron Guard aren't any less Mordian Iron Guard because I don't have a special codex that tells me they're special.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:

it is well established fluff the BA dont want to share the Baal pred nor the Lucius engines.. causes much friction between them and the mechanicus, dante actually sent a long-lost Emperor(?) titan to try to make up for it. They would not simply go around distributing it to all chapters.

Is this the same fluff that was also pertinent to the Stormraven?

Anyways, I'd still give BA vehicles all fast as part of their CT, but the Baal pred aspect can be fluffed in, just like the Stormraven.

The raven was a martian STC, the Baal pred is a unique BA one. Mars shares. BA do not

**AtoMaki**

MephistonLoD wrote:

Spoiler:

AtoMaki wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

This is a joke right?

I never said to eliminate the Baal pred, I said to make it available to everyone when its rolled in. I also said I wasn't opposed to including Sang Guard wholesale.

Please read what I'm writing and respond appropriately.

And no, its not a joke. Did you read what I wrote?

Yeah I did, you said the look/how they're painted is what gives the feel of a Chapter, more so than their rules and the way they play? So... if I painted my BA blue, I would feel more like I was playing Ultramarines?

Dude... There are players out there who use the BA codex, paint their models dark blue and play them as Night Lords (and I'm 5000% serious here)! Yeah, the Chaos Space Marine Night Lords. You can't go lower than that!

Right, but given the rules he's using they'd still feel like Blood Angels. I can take a Ferrari chassis, but replace everything inside with that of a Honda Civic... I'll still feel like i'm driving a Honda Civic.

I'm pretty sure that they use the codex because it feels like a Night Lords codex. Otherwise, they would play the CSM book, right?

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:

MephistonLoD wrote:

Right, but given the rules he's using they'd still feel like Blood Angels. I put a take a Ferrari chassis, but replace everything inside with that of a Honda Civic... I'll still feel like i'm driving a Honda Civic.

Except removing the codex and streamlining it with the vanilla codex would not remove the feel of BA.

They'd still have their army wide special rules via a well written CT. They'd have access to nearly everything they currently with the redundancy cut out. It would feel almost identical. Instead of a Sanguinary Priest, you'd have an Apothecary, which you can go ahead and just call 'Sanguinary Priest' anyways.

My Mordian Iron Guard aren't any less Mordian Iron Guard because I don't have a special codex that tells me they're special.

See that part? yeah since was GW good with that part of the codex?

**Blacksails**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

The raven was a martian STC, the Baal pred is a unique BA one. Mars shares. BA do not

Hmmm, been a while since I read through the dex.

It can be fluffed around to fit. Wouldn't be worse than BA working with Necrons, eh?

I think it'd be a good move for all marines anyways, if not for fluff reasons but purely for gameplay/mechanical reasons.

That and I enjoy tanks.

*Edit* I see your post above (the quote block is kind of messed up), and I agree, but then again if that's an argument against rolling them in, it should also be an argument for them keeping a distinct codex, because when has GW been adept at writing balanced books that play according to the fluff?

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:

The raven was a martian STC, the Baal pred is a unique BA one. Mars shares. BA do not

Hmmm, been a while since I read through the dex.

It can be fluffed around to fit. Wouldn't be worse than BA working with Necrons, eh?

I think it'd be a good move for all marines anyways, if not for fluff reasons but purely for gameplay/mechanical reasons.

That and I enjoy tanks.

Who doesnt like tanks?
And me too, i had to double check the raven myself. And in this day and age who isnt working with crons?

**Furyou Miko**

Hm. Unique things about Blood Angels from 3rd Edition onwards would be... Bhaal Predators, an urge to get to grips with the enemy (even their Whirlwinds used to have to test to see if they charged forwards!) and the Death Company.

I'm not counting Special Characters, because everyone gets Special Characters.

So. Charging forwards is a chapter tactic. Bhaal Predators and Death Company. Two units. Seems sane enough.

Later on, they got Furioso Dreadnoughts. Around the same time that Dark Angels got Mortis Dreadnoughts, I believe. Since DAngels haven't complained about losing their Mortis Dreads, I guess BAngels can't really whine too much about losing their Furiosos. After all, you can easily make a Rifleman or a 2xDCCW dreadnought using the vanilla codex, and those are the same thing.

Previous to the most recent codices, anyway.

As for Dante's Inferno Pistol, actually, it always used to be called the "Perdition Pistol" (because Dante's Inferno was too obvious), and was a Meltagun with the Pistol type - Range 12" and all. Inferno Pistols were introduced as an upgrade for characters only (and Seraphim) in Codex: Witch Hunters. So really, you can't even claim them as a unique Blood Angel thing.

You should have heard the wailing amongst the Sororitas players when BAngels could suddenly spam Infernus pistols on everything!

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:

The raven was a martian STC, the Baal pred is a unique BA one. Mars shares. BA do not

Hmmm, been a while since I read through the dex.

It can be fluffed around to fit. Wouldn't be worse than BA working with Necrons, eh?

I think it'd be a good move for all marines anyways, if not for fluff reasons but purely for gameplay/mechanical reasons.

That and I enjoy tanks.

*Edit* I see your post above (the quote block is kind of messed up), and I agree, but then again if that's an argument against rolling them in, it should also be an argument for them keeping a distinct codex, because when has GW been adept at writing balanced books that play according to the fluff?

Thats my bad i tried to short it now cant fix it
Its more an arguement for rolling them in than keeping them standalone however. Nobody is too upset and saying that ultras cant be well represented, yet BT got the short end of the barrel in that bundle did they not?

**Blacksails**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Who doesnt like tanks?
And me too, i had to double check the raven myself. And in this day and age who isnt working with crons?

I'm definitely an IG treadhead, so yeah. I was always disappointed the vanilla codex had no real tanks in the FA slot.

I'm largely ambivalent about the Newcron fluff...and that BA story was a little rough to digest.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Blacksails wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Who doesnt like tanks?
And me too, i had to double check the raven myself. And in this day and age who isnt working with crons?

I'm definitely an IG treadhead, so yeah. I was always disappointed the vanilla codex had no real tanks in the FA slot.

I'm largely ambivalent about the Newcron fluff...and that BA story was a little rough to digest.

Baal preds dont feel the same as hellhounds sadly.. Scout helps though

**Blacksails**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Its more an arguement for rolling them in than keeping them standalone however. Nobody is too upset and saying that ultras cant be well represented, yet BT got the short end of the barrel in that bundle did they not?

And I admit that BT were worked in poorly. Again, GW has a great track record of good ideas and awful execution. Now, BT are definitely salvageable with one or two dedicated minds working on it, but its far from the worst thing that could happen to them.

Don't forget that plenty of other marine players are playing 1st founding chapters with no distinct codex and a single SC (or none at all for IH before the supplement...did they even get one there?).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Baal preds dont feel the same as hellhounds sadly.. Scout helps though

Well even Hellhounds don't feel like much these days with Vendettas...but that's a whole different bag of chips.

**Deadnight**

MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

Language much?

Funnily enough, I remember when blood angels was a dozen-or so page supplement to a two-dozen or so page space marine codex. Third edition.

Blood angels fed off the main codex, with their extra stuff (overcharged rhinos, death co. And death co. Chaplains, priests. The 'on a 1 I go faster' rule, and furious charge). All of it fit into a bare handful of pages. I'm sure you can still find it places.

No mention of blood fists, blood missiles, blood this, blood that, dozen psychic powers, etcetera. And yet, they were still blood angels. The rest of the rot is fifth edition bloat.

**Vaktathi**

Deadnight wrote:
MephistonLoD wrote:

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

Language much?

Funnily enough, I remember when blood angels was a dozen-or so page supplement to a two-dozen or so page space marine codex. Third edition.

Blood angels fed off the main codex, with their extra stuff (overcharged rhinos, death co. And death co. Chaplains, priests. The 'on a 1 I go faster' rule, and furious charge). All of it fit into a bare handful of pages. I'm sure you can still find it places.

No mention of blood fists, blood missiles, blood this, blood that, dozen psychic powers, etcetera. And yet, they were still blood angels. The rest of the rot is fifth edition bloat.

This, seriously this. A lot of it was made just to justify the continued existence of a distinct book.

Even with most of the extra stuff, you could fit it all in with just 2-4 pages (assuming you're not slapping in big pictures) fairly easily as C:SM addendum and still not lose anything, the book shares 80% of the same units/weapons/wargear with C:SM already.

**Xanrn**

A Blood Angels supplement would literally be 5 times or more as much content as any other supplement so far.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

They would have done it already.

They are not going to pass up the profit of a new Hardback plus limited editions, plus a new unit or 2 plus sales spikes on older units new to Blood Angels.

**soomemafia**

MephistonLoD wrote:
Blacksails wrote:

MephistonLoD wrote:
For feth sakes, NO! This is such a stupid subject. It's never going to happen, for anyone thinking it can, you clearly no nothing about the Blood Angels if you think they can just "roll them into C:SM nicely".

Care to elaborate with a little more reasoning? Telling people they're wrong without stating why in a sensible manner isn't going to convince anyone.

I couldn't care less if I convince anyone why putting Blood Angels into a Codex half assed, throwing away everything that made them unique, disregarding all of their fluff, is an idiotic idea. Yeah let's just toss out Baal Preds! Toss out Sang Guard too! I mean other's can use Storm Ravens so lets delete a few more unique models, feth it.

Blacksails wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.

Yeah, or just made into the base book. A chapter's identity isn't base solely on the rules for them. A paint scheme and modeling will do far more for a chapter's feel than one or two special characters or units.

This is a joke right?

Aaaaaaalrighty. What in the world is this?

First of all, no-one ever talked about "disregarding all of their fluff". You clearly aren't on the same page here.
And second, are you truly claiming that (using your example the other way around here) you would feel like playing Blood Angels when every single model in your army has blue colour scheme and toilet seat in their shoulder pads?

The identity you give to your army by modelling, painting and personalizing them can make a huge difference to me at least.

It matters not how little I use Aspect Warriors and how much I adore Wraithguard. When someone asks which craftworld I play the answer will always be Biel-tan, because that's how I've painted them and that's what I've made them.
I know it's not the best kind of comparison since not many armies beyond SM have several codices/rules for basically one army. And why should they? Even as a BA player I understand how unfair it is for other races as GW puts half of their time/recourses towards what is basically a single army with few specialities.

**Blacksails**

Not only that, but some of the BA specific wargear (hand flamers and infernus pistols) would be great additions to the vanilla book. I'm sure Salamander players everywhere salivate at the thought, and opens up more options for DIY chapters to capture their fluff in a single book.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xanrn wrote:

A Blood Angels supplement would literally be 5 times or more as much content as any other supplement so far.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

They would have done it already.

They are not going to pass up the profit of a new Hardback plus limited editions, plus a new unit or 2 plus sales spikes on older units new to Blood Angels.

How so? How would it have 5 times the content? Can you justify that? Anything to back that claim up?

Also, discussing the business practice of GW is not going to get this discussion very far; I'm sure most of us are in agreement the reason they won't is precisely because its incredibly easy to recycle ~90% of an existing book and call it a day.

**Jefffar**

Personally, I think that a supplement is the way to go, not only for Blood Angels, but Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

For those who don't have one of the supplements, they are fantastic books, full of tons of fluff devoted to that faction in particular. The one downside to them is that up until now, they have been very light on introducing things like new units and rules beyond a few codex tweaks. However, I don't think this would have to be the case. A supplement with a larger rule section, say on par to what's in the Inquisition or Imperial Knights books (I don't think we can call a book without a full slate of FOC options a Codex) could easily cover the variant rules, characters and units for these alternate Marines while the mainMarine codex has the baseline common rules and units. I don't think it would take a lot of space either, maybe 8 to 12 pages of rules instead of the 4 to 6 the existing supplements have.

I think this option would provide all the uniqueness that the players of BA, BT, DA or SW want, while giving them a core set of rules that is balanced well with the standard Codex Marines.

I suggest players look in detail at the supplements for Imperial Fists and Iron Hands, imagine them with 2-3x the rules content and then decide if hat would or wouldn't be an awesome way to present what makes their preferred chapter different from all the others, but still definitely Astartes at their core.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Jefffar wrote:
Personally, I think that a supplement is the way to go, not only for Blood Angels, but Black Templars, Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

For those who don't have one of the supplements, they are fantastic books, full of tons of fluff devoted to that faction in particular. The one downside to them is that up until now, they have been very light on introducing things like new units and rules beyond a few codex tweaks. However, I don't think this would have to be the case. A supplement with a larger rule section, say on par to what's in the Inquisition or Imperial Knights books (I don't think we can call a book without a full slate of FOC options a Codex) could easily cover the variant rules, characters and units for these alternate Marines while the mainMarine codex has the baseline common rules and units. I don't think it would take a lot of space either, maybe 8 to 12 pages of rules instead of the 4 to 6 the existing supplements have.

I think this option would provide all the uniqueness that the players of BA, BT, DA or SW want, while giving them a core set of rules that is balanced well with the standard Codex Marines.

I suggest players look in detail at the supplements for Imperial Fists and Iron Hands, imagine them with 2-3x the rules content and then decide if hat would or wouldn't be an awesome way to present what makes their preferred chapter different from all the others, but still definitely Astartes at their core.

now, i keep asking. whatd be the difference between a supplement and a codex? if its done right a supplement may as well be a standalone codex.