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I think they should be rolled in, most of what is different about them has been shoehorned in over the years to justify what special snowflakes they are to justify their own codex when the Marine population was booming. Why does a codex adherant chapter not use Thunderfire or Stormtalons or any of the other things they are missing?

They are codex adherent, they should follow the exact same rules with the standard chapter tactics IMO.

Most of their dreads are Ironclad variants, their vehicles have fast (part of chapter tactics) they have honour guard with jump packs and death company who could easily be their "Crusader Squad"

GW wouldn't junk models so roll the Baal, Librarian dreads (though I hate the concept) and the few other special units into the core dex. Frankly I'd love to see a Marine core dex and then some appropriately named supplement for all the additional chapters (BA,DA, SW etc), give each one a couple of pages of rules, a few special characters and a chapter tactic.

Then a marine is a marine, there really is no reason for marines to have more than 1 book. In a 1-10 stat system there is no reason to differentiate between a Blood Angel and an Imperial Griffon/Ultramarine/Mentor Legion or any other different paint coloured marine by anything more than their chapter tactic.

A BA and DA are practically identical yet they have different dexes while the Chaos legions, Ork tribes, Eldar Craftworlds, Guard divisions etc all have very different ways of fighting yet are rolled into one dex each.

poll up!


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 Dunklezahn wrote:
I think they should be rolled in, most of what is different about them has been shoehorned in over the years to justify what special snowflakes they are to justify their own codex when the Marine population was booming. Why does a codex adherant chapter not use Thunderfire or Stormtalons or any of the other things they are missing?

They are codex adherent, they should follow the exact same rules with the standard chapter tactics IMO.

Most of their dreads are Ironclad variants, their vehicles have fast (part of chapter tactics) they have honour guard with jump packs and death company who could easily be their "Crusader Squad"

GW wouldn't junk models so roll the Baal, Librarian dreads (though I hate the concept) and the few other special units into the core dex. Frankly I'd love to see a Marine core dex and then some appropriately named supplement for all the additional chapters (BA,DA, SW etc), give each one a couple of pages of rules, a few special characters and a chapter tactic.

Then a marine is a marine, there really is no reason for marines to have more than 1 book. In a 1-10 stat system there is no reason to differentiate between a Blood Angel and an Imperial Griffon/Ultramarine/Mentor Legion or any other different paint coloured marine by anything more than their chapter tactic.

A BA and DA are practically identical yet they have different dexes while the Chaos legions, Ork tribes, Eldar Craftworlds, Guard divisions etc all have very different ways of fighting yet are rolled into one dex each.

Praytell how the BA and DA fight the same?
Also id like for someone to explain to me how being in the codex with a supplement is any different from being its own dex?

Poly Ranger wrote:
The thing is DA, SW and BA are massively different from the c:sm compared to those other ex legions. They play completely differently on the table top. That variety adds much to the game. To roll them all in to one takes so much away. BA would need FAR more different rules and unit entries compared to the smurfs.
Apart from the baseline stats of the basic troops they are completely different armies. They just happen to share the name 'space marine'.

With exception to the SW, who do not share any units with the SM at all, that is nonsense. The Iron Hands for example are just as different, if not more so from the C:SM as the Blood and Dark Angels. The White Scars even more so.
If the Iron Hands, White Scars and Black Templars (who are all much more divergent than the BA or DA) can be in the C:SM than so can the BA and DA. All Space Marine chapters except for the SW (the only chapter to 100% disregard the Codex Astartes) should be rolled into the C:SM
It makes things more clear and saves people from having to buy an extra codex, while extra special rules etc. could be introduced in supplements.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

So CT BA includes:
-Red Thirst
-DOA
-Access to priests with wargear options (3 for 1 in elites)
-Honour guard with jps
-Access to blood talons or frag cannons on ironclad (furios dreads)
-Fast tanks
-Assault marines as troops
-Divination on librarians
-Special uniys inc;
-Death co
-Reclusiarch
-Baal Preds with scout

I can see other vanilla players getting annoyed at our extensive list of CT...


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Oh and death co dreads...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Believe me I have tried to take my BA as a 'counts as' Raven guard.
1.) I cant yake half the uniys I own as they don't even exist in c:sm
2.) My tactics totally change as assault marines are no longer scoring and I have no fast tanks any more.
3.) My assault squads do not have furious charge, 5+ fnp and a 5+ cover save in the open so are therefore pants.
4.) I cannot take special characters.

I want to play BA like BA play and with C:SM this is impossible UNLESS you put in extensive amounts of CT, Spec characters and extra units that would just make other chapter players jealous.
It just doesnt work!

When you put it that way it seems unwieldy but there is a way of doing it.

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels.
At the start of the game roll a d6 for each unit. That unit gets furious charge (Or whatever red thirst does).

Rapid Assault:
All non Land Raider tanks gain fast. In addition, Assault squads may be taken as troops and can do whatever DoA does.

Death company:
You may spend 20 points per assault squad and Dreadnought to upgrade them to Death Company. This gives them +1 A, rage and access to the melee weapons list. Just an example modify it to properly represent DC.

Give Librarians access to divination and dreadnought armor since they should have that anyway.

In regards to the poll... we 'deserve' to stand alone makes it sound like im selecting that because I believe BA to be better than other space marine lists... I do not. I just do not think it could possibly work. This is why I selected that option, despite not particularly liking its biased wording.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In regards to the poll... we 'deserve' to stand alone makes it sound like im selecting that because I believe BA to be better than other space marine lists... I do not. I just do not think it could possibly work. This is why I selected that option, despite not particularly liking its biased wording.

Right will change that up my apologies

I'm still a little butthurt that Black Templar were rolled in when they could have been expanded like Blood Angels. So while I feel they should have both been made separate, I now think they will both be rolled and supplemented

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The problem with having separate Marine codices is that there is flimsy justification for doing so when they share a good portion of their units with each other. You are basically buying a different book just to get more wargear and a couple of different rules. If Blood Angels was rolled into Codex: Space Marines what would they lose? Being on the front cover? They would be updated every time C:SM was so that is a nice boon to the Blood Angel players.

To represent a Blood Angels force accurately all you'd need is a Chapter Tactic that unlocks assault marines as troops, the unique Blood Angel units and a special rule or two.

I take it you dont play BA? i keep hearing the "CT and some special rules" but in reality it would take much, much more than that. Special units, special characters (much as the UM, maybe more) multiple special wargear options and special vehicle rules. We share the basic units with C:SM like scouts tac's ASM's and devs, but we have as many special units as we do marine units. Its like saying you could wrap up the wolves into the nilla dex honestly.

I counted 13 special units and characters. While this may be a lot it really should be only an additional page or two at the most. As for special rules and wargear that's also an additional page or two. I understand that Blood Angels do not like the idea of having their army being demoted to the regular codex but, if done properly, there should be no real difference. And, as above, you can roll some of the wargear and special characters into a supplement called "Angels of Death" or something.

I disagree with the statement that it would only be a page or two of additional info..... First idk if you have noticed but each character gets his own page just like every other named character so that is a page for Dante, Mephiston, Gabriel Seth, Astorath, The Sanguinor, Tycho, and possibly the Reclusiarch. Then we have to include character pages for Corbulo, and Lemartes. After the 9 pages for just named characters we then have to add pages for Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Death Company, and Baal Predators.... So after 13 pages of character and unit fluff then you have to add sections for infernus pistols, DoA, hand flamers, Red Thrist, BA psychic powers, Death Company Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Furioso Librarian Dreads, Blood Chalice, Glaive excrimine, angelus bolters, put assault marines in the troop selection, then a tab for points upgrades for vehicles to make them fast vehicles, General BA Fluff just like they did for all of the other chapters including 4 pages worth of different paint schemes and probably another 3 pages worth of previous battles and general fluff regarding the chapter, oh and then we have all of the units added to the back of the book in the points section as well as the weapons and units in the reference pages in the back of the book. Can't forget about the nice shiny pictures they post so everyone can see what the modesl look like so lets add another 2 pages. I'm sure there are a few things I am forgetting but that's probably approaching 30 pages if not more and that's if they write bare minimum but I digress. Point is the new C:SM dex would be for the most part a Blood Angel Dex.

Furyou Miko wrote:

Of course, the real reason not to do it is that the Black Templars players will be even more insufferable afterwards. Not only will they gloat about how it happening to them first somehow makes them superior, they'll also whine about how Blood Angels do the Templars job but better.

BT players aren't insufferable at all. The playerbase of a certain other "imperial" faction however...

Boniface wrote:What about have a supplement to codex marines which includes some unique bits and units.
Then give chapter tactics and FOC changes and done.

I think this should also be done for DA and SW too.

The main disadvantage being that codex SM is available everywhere in multiple forms and the supplements are not.

Plus we see currently the weirdness of GW supplements:
- Eldar = 4+ Craftworlds. Supplements = 1 ?
- chaos = traitor Legions plus some more heretics . Supplements ?
- Tyranids?

And we are expected to buy 3rd company of chapter x supplements. I don't think every BA player wants to be 3rd co of BA....

I'd rather have 2 complete books: 1x "astartes" ( basic rules and general fluff ) and 1x "chapters" ( specific rules and fluff of 9 Legions plus successors ),
available in Brick&Mortar stores and online than a single codex plus digital supplements.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

So CT BA includes:
-Red Thirst
-DOA
-Access to priests with wargear options (3 for 1 in elites)
-Honour guard with jps
-Access to blood talons or frag cannons on ironclad (furios dreads)
-Fast tanks
-Assault marines as troops
-Divination on librarians
-Special uniys inc;
-Death co
-Reclusiarch
-Baal Preds with scout

I can see other vanilla players getting annoyed at our extensive list of CT...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and death co dreads...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Believe me I have tried to take my BA as a 'counts as' Raven guard.
1.) I cant yake half the uniys I own as they don't even exist in c:sm
2.) My tactics totally change as assault marines are no longer scoring and I have no fast tanks any more.
3.) My assault squads do not have furious charge, 5+ fnp and a 5+ cover save in the open so are therefore pants.
4.) I cannot take special characters.

I want to play BA like BA play and with C:SM this is impossible UNLESS you put in extensive amounts of CT, Spec characters and extra units that would just make other chapter players jealous.
It just doesnt work!

When you put it that way it seems unwieldy but there is a way of doing it.

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels.
At the start of the game roll a d6 for each unit. That unit gets furious charge (Or whatever red thirst does).

Rapid Assault:
All non Land Raider tanks gain fast. In addition, Assault squads may be taken as troops and can do whatever DoA does.

Death company:
You may spend 20 points per assault squad and Dreadnought to upgrade them to Death Company. This gives them +1 A, rage and access to the melee weapons list. Just an example modify it to properly represent DC.

Give Librarians access to divination and dreadnought armor since they should have that anyway.

That is the best CT to represent BA I have yet encountered and you have definitely put some good thought into it. It still lacks certain specific things though, such as jps for hon guard (sang guard) or command squad (hon guard), weapon options for furiosos, scout on baals, spec characters, infernus pistols and hand flamers, priests (3 for 1) in elites and option to upgrade dreads to libbys. Other jp units also need DoA. If you can work these in I do not mind losing DS on LRs, Reclusiarch's, chaplains in elites, Vanguard Vets special rules, Glaive encarmines (as they would count as relic blades), weapon options for Sang guard, BA banners or even BA psychic powers (at a push with the last one :-p).


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The thing is DA, SW and BA are massively different from the c:sm compared to those other ex legions. They play completely differently on the table top. That variety adds much to the game. To roll them all in to one takes so much away. BA would need FAR more different rules and unit entries compared to the smurfs.
Apart from the baseline stats of the basic troops they are completely different armies. They just happen to share the name 'space marine'.

With exception to the SW, who do not share any units with the SM at all, that is nonsense. The Iron Hands for example are just as different, if not more so from the C:SM as the Blood and Dark Angels. The White Scars even more so.
If the Iron Hands, White Scars and Black Templars (who are all much more divergent than the BA or DA) can be in the C:SM than so can the BA and DA. All Space Marine chapters except for the SW (the only chapter to 100% disregard the Codex Astartes) should be rolled into the C:SM
It makes things more clear and saves people from having to buy an extra codex, while extra special rules etc. could be introduced in supplements.

Im not talkimg about fluff. Im talking about rules and different units and models. I know all are massively different fluff wise. But they are NOT massively different unit unit choice wise as they all have the same options avaliable.

The sarcasms, they pierce my heart like a lightsaber through aluminum foil.

Okay, well, how about this. Baal Predator is a variant Predator with the scout special rule. Just give honor guard squads access to Jump Packs and amend the CT to say that all jump pack equipped units have DoA. Furioso Dreadnought could be a Ironclad Dreadnought variant with blood talons


As for the other items you could simply put them into a supplement. The 3 in 1 priest unit seems perfect for one.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The sarcasms, they pierce my heart like a lightsaber through aluminum foil.

Okay, well, how about this. Baal Predator is a variant Predator with the scout special rule. Just give honor guard squads access to Jump Packs and amend the CT to say that all jump pack equipped units have DoA. Furioso Dreadnought could be a Ironclad Dreadnought variant with blood talons


As for the other items you could simply put them into a supplement. The 3 in 1 priest unit seems perfect for one.

Im still not convinced theres a difference between supplement and standalone aside from needing both.

For example. You could run an ironclad heavy WS list if you wanted or a bike heavy ultramarine list. A devestator heavy salamanders list or a drop and melta heavy IF list. You cannot however run a IF, Salamanders, Ultramarine, IH or any other vanilla dex list with scoring assault marines, backed up by fast scouting tanks, sprinkled with rage enduced and 2+ save jp models, running fnp and furious charge giving characters, jumping alongside librarian dreads whilst rending flaming AT dreads drop from the sky.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
The sarcasms, they pierce my heart like a lightsaber through aluminum foil.

Okay, well, how about this. Baal Predator is a variant Predator with the scout special rule. Just give honor guard squads access to Jump Packs and amend the CT to say that all jump pack equipped units have DoA. Furioso Dreadnought could be a Ironclad Dreadnought variant with blood talons


As for the other items you could simply put them into a supplement. The 3 in 1 priest unit seems perfect for one.

Sorry I wasn't meaning to sound sarcastic. I was actually trying to compliment your attempt. I apologise if it came across otherwise.

I am fine with having our own Dex. To me it makes sense as bot the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels are only "Semi" Codex Compliant. I can't speak as to the other factions, but as far as fluff goes I know that The SW kinda said $#%&#$$%!!!!!! to the Codex Astartes, and the Blood Angels had to restructure their company progression due to the Red Thirst. Both are not heretical (though some Blood Angels successor chapters have been branded as such) but both deviate from Robot Girlyman's Codex Astartes.
Of course this is just my view from fluff interpretation...which might also explain why the current BA dex has such bogus prices for their units - they are in a dire time where they have take tithe in the form of aspirants from successor chapters to replenish their ranks.

Sorry for the way in depth thought...

BA have their unique stuff, but personally (as a BA player) I think that having four different codices for Space Marines is stupid.

Therefore, I voted for supplement.

Blood Angels would be on line with the rest of Marines (equal points).

Their chapter tactics would propably be similar to DoA and allowing ASM as troops.
Red Thirst would be eliminated but similar effects could still be gained by having a Sanguinary Priest around.
Baal Predator would either be eliminated or made avaivable to everyone.
Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinior and Corbulo would be the only named characters for us.
Our Vanguard Veterans might have some nice special rule, but that's it.

Just my suggestion. I know a lot of this seems harsh and we would lose a lot of our unique stuff.

But to be honest, I would be ready swap our 'dex into this.

(I hardly ever anything that C:SM don't have apart from ASM as troops, Priests and Furiosos).

BA 3rd edition codex referred to C:SM, if I'm not mistaken. I don't have a problem with a supplement. That's all C:BA ever has been really.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

So CT BA includes:
-Red Thirst
-DOA
-Access to priests with wargear options (3 for 1 in elites)
-Honour guard with jps
-Access to blood talons or frag cannons on ironclad (furios dreads)
-Fast tanks
-Assault marines as troops
-Divination on librarians
-Special uniys inc;
-Death co
-Reclusiarch
-Baal Preds with scout

I can see other vanilla players getting annoyed at our extensive list of CT...

Yeah, vanilla players are already pretty annoyed with the extensive Black Templar CT with its Vows, move-towards-the-enemy-when-shot special rule and so on. Oh, wait...

All the Blood Angles need is the Red Thirst/Descend of Angels as a CT. Everything else is either good as an option for everyone (Reclusiarch, JP Honor Guard/Command Squad, Assault Squad as Troops, Fast vehicles) or can have a BT style CT dependent unit entry (Priests, Black Company, Baal Predators).

 1hadhq wrote:

BT players aren't insufferable at all. The playerbase of a certain other "imperial" faction however...

Pull the other one. Every time someone gets something nice, there's a Black Templar there to point out that it's not fair because they got rolled into Codex: Space Marines. Just look at the Legion of the Damned and Knight threads!

__________________________________________________________

None of the things that have been brought to bear against my comments sounds like a good case for Blood Angels to be standalone.

They just sound like reasons to give the other chapters extra stuff to bring them up to the level of the Blood Angels, because the Blood Angels are not that special.

 soomemafia wrote:
BA have their unique stuff, but personally (as a BA player) I think that having four different codices for Space Marines is stupid.

Therefore, I voted for supplement.

Blood Angels would be on line with the rest of Marines (equal points).

Their chapter tactics would propably be similar to DoA and allowing ASM as troops.
Red Thirst would be eliminated but similar effects could still be gained by having a Sanguinary Priest around.
Baal Predator would either be eliminated or made avaivable to everyone.
Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinior and Corbulo would be the only named characters for us.
Our Vanguard Veterans might have some nice special rule, but that's it.

Just my suggestion. I know a lot of this seems harsh and we would lose a lot of our unique stuff.

But to be honest, I would be ready swap our 'dex into this.

(I hardly ever anything that C:SM don't have apart from ASM as troops, Priests and Furiosos).

And immediately hundreds of pounds of my models become unusable. And nid players got annoyed when parasite was axed!


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 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
DT Land Raiders are not iconic, Red Thirst and DoA are Chapter Tactics fodder, as are Divination Librarians (SFR: Mantis Warriors), Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard who come with relic blades, Furioso Dreadnoughts are already part of the main codex as they were originally conceptualised, Librarian Dreadnoughts should be available to everyone anyway, Priests are just variant Apothecaries and don't need special rules, Reclusiarchs - the Black Templars had them, too! - and the other two have precedent as being included as "Only this Chapter may take these" units.

Could easily have Death Company and Bhaal Predators as "Only armies with CT: Blood Angels may take this unit", just like Crusaders and Black Templars.

So CT BA includes:
-Red Thirst
-DOA
-Access to priests with wargear options (3 for 1 in elites)
-Honour guard with jps
-Access to blood talons or frag cannons on ironclad (furios dreads)
-Fast tanks
-Assault marines as troops
-Divination on librarians
-Special uniys inc;
-Death co
-Reclusiarch
-Baal Preds with scout

I can see other vanilla players getting annoyed at our extensive list of CT...

Yeah, vanilla players are already pretty annoyed with the extensive Black Templar CT with its Vows, move-towards-the-enemy-when-shot special rule and so on. Oh, wait...

All the Blood Angles need is the Red Thirst/Descend of Angels as a CT. Everything else is either good as an option for everyone (Reclusiarch, JP Honor Guard/Command Squad, Assault Squad as Troops, Fast vehicles) or can have a BT style CT dependent unit entry (Priests, Black Company, Baal Predators).

That is my point exactly. BT DONT have excessive chapter tactics. So all other space marine armies get what you've suggested? I can guarantee that we would be seeing far more assault marine armies if thats the case. What about all the other things I mentioned in the earlier list? Do all other marines get them too? Im pretty confident that if SM tanks ALL became fast there would be serious rage from non SM players.


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Ok I own 6 Baals, 20 sanguinary guard, 10jp honour guard, 2 furiosos, 2 death co dreads, 20jp death co, 20 foot death co, 5 sang priests. Not including spec characters these are the models I own that are unique to BA. A few people have suggested that these be got rid of. Im sorry but if you personally made an official rule if you were a GW writer stopping me using all those models, I would probably hire a real life vindicare... :-p

Why not take and roll Chaos Marines into C:SM as well they are just marines with spikey bits? They only have a few different units and all of their special rules could be covered with a quick blurb. One could roll them into Chaos Deamons book too ...this could be justified by them hanging out with bad things.

The thing that most people who do not play BA armies fail to realize is that if they were put into C:SM then the BA would lose all of its identity. I was personally not happy with the BT being rolled into SM codex and I do not even play that army. The little research that I have done on them tells me that prior to being rolled, they friggin HATED psykers ... and only tolerated astropaths to get them around. Now? They can be bff's with Tigerious like they have been old pals. If this is an example of how things would change for the BA if they were rolled in ... count me out.

Poly Ranger wrote:

That is my point exactly. BT DON'T have excessive chapter tactics.

Yeah, I just quickly established that a Special Snowflake Marine chapter can be compressed into a simple CT plus some CT units.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So all other space marine armies get what you've suggested? I can guarantee that we would be seeing far more assault marine armies if thats the case. What about all the other things I mentioned in the earlier list? Do all other marines get them too? Im pretty confident that if SM tanks ALL became fast there would be serious rage from non SM players.

It would be something like:
- Captains/Chapter Masters with Jump Packs unlock Assault Squads as Troops
- Jump Packs are an option for Honor Guard and Command Squad
- Vehicles can be upgraded with something like Grimdark Nitro Boosters, so they gain Fast for +15/20 points

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

That is my point exactly. BT DON'T have excessive chapter tactics.

Yeah, I just quickly established that a Special Snowflake Marine chapter can be compressed into a simple CT plus some CT units.

Except for the part where it didn't work at all, sure.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

That is my point exactly. BT DON'T have excessive chapter tactics.

Yeah, I just quickly established that a Special Snowflake Marine chapter can be compressed into a simple CT plus some CT units.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So all other space marine armies get what you've suggested? I can guarantee that we would be seeing far more assault marine armies if thats the case. What about all the other things I mentioned in the earlier list? Do all other marines get them too? Im pretty confident that if SM tanks ALL became fast there would be serious rage from non SM players.

It would be something like:
- Captains/Chapter Masters with Jump Packs unlock Assault Squads as Troops
- Jump Packs are an option for Honor Guard and Command Squad
- Vehicles can be upgraded with something like Grimdark Nitro Boosters, so they gain Fast for +15/20 points

No you established that BT could be rolled into c:sm. There is far more variation in the BA dex then BT ever had!
What you suggest are not bad ideas admittedly. What about:
-Divination
-Fragiosos
-Priests
-Baals
-Death co
-Death co dreads
All of which are not units that are found in other SM armies.


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Then we jave the problem of BA having excessive CT in comparison again.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

That is my point exactly. BT DON'T have excessive chapter tactics.

Yeah, I just quickly established that a Special Snowflake Marine chapter can be compressed into a simple CT plus some CT units.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So all other space marine armies get what you've suggested? I can guarantee that we would be seeing far more assault marine armies if thats the case. What about all the other things I mentioned in the earlier list? Do all other marines get them too? Im pretty confident that if SM tanks ALL became fast there would be serious rage from non SM players.

It would be something like:
- Captains/Chapter Masters with Jump Packs unlock Assault Squads as Troops
- Jump Packs are an option for Honor Guard and Command Squad
- Vehicles can be upgraded with something like Grimdark Nitro Boosters, so they gain Fast for +15/20 points

No you established that BT could be rolled into c:sm. There is far more variation in the BA dex then BT ever had!

Even then, they axed a lot of stuff for BT.

Poly Ranger wrote:

No you established that BT could be rolled into c:sm. There is far more variation in the BA dex then BT ever had!

BT had just as much variation than BA for, like, two editions. Then BA got a face-lift that could be an option for the BT too.

Poly Ranger wrote:

What you suggest are not bad ideas admittedly. What about:
-Divination
-Fragiosos
-Priests
-Baals
-Death co
-Death co dreads

- Divination needs to go or be an option for every SM Librarian
- Frag cannon would be an option for the Ironclad and/or the normal Dread, same for (renamed) Blood Talons
- Priests, Baals and the Death Company are CT (BA) units just like the Emperor's Champion and the Crusader Squads are CT (BT) units

Blood Angels need Assault squads as troops and moar weapon options for those squads.. why? They didn't need them in the Hallowed Tome that was Codex: Angels of Death. Hand Flamers? Standard issue to marines prior to 3rd edition. Inferno pistols? PistolS? WHAT? The whole reason IT was called the Inferno pistol was because it was DANTE'S Inferno. Death Company? Go read the Rites of Initiation Index Astartes article, pay attention to the bit about the dangers of implantation, keywords: suicide assault squads psychopathic marines.

Since 3rd edition 40k has become a lot like Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

In AD&D Thief skills used a completely and utterly different system to non-thief skills, and with a handful of exceptions (Rangers, Ninjas) nobody else could even access them. A thief in shiny full-plate armour with bellydancer bells on had a better chance of tiptoeing past a guard than a wizard in a ninja outfit, because sneaky was what thieves did so nobody else was allowed to. 40k is now like that, in 2nd edition if you wanted to field a pure Assault force you could do it with any marine army. Now only Blood Angels are allowed to do it, but it doesn't originate from the fluff: BA have only had assault troops since the 4th edition White Dwarf Codex and the fluff to justify this as their tabletop 'thing' wasn't retconned in until 5th edition.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Even then, they axed a lot of stuff for BT.

BT Variances off the top of my head... Green is still there, Red is long gone.
- Sword brethren as a unit
- Land Raider Crusaders (they had them before C: SM got them) as dedicated transports for EVERYONE.
- Vows (Pick 1 of 4)
- Emperor's Champion
- Holy Orb of Antioch
- Crusader Squads
- Reclusiarch Grimaldus
- High Marshal Helbrecht
- Any Chaplain could take Cenobyte Servators, not just Grimaldus.
- Any Independent Character could purchase Bionics
- 2-wound techmarines in the Elite slot


As a long time BT player, I'm not complaining mind you. We also got access to all of the new units plus some I always wanted (Devastators and Whirlwinds). But we were rolled into the Space Marine codex and allowed to keep a fair amount of our character.

I hope that BA players can keep theirs separate, but to say they can't be lumped in is silly. It can be done.

For feth sakes, NO! This is such a stupid subject. It's never going to happen, for anyone thinking it can, you clearly no nothing about the Blood Angels if you think they can just "roll them into C:SM nicely".

Came in a little late due to work.

Anyways, here are my thoughts.

I can't find a legitimate reason for BA to maintain an entirely different codex when everything 'unique' they have is either a variant of an existing unit, or a piece of wargear every other chapter should reasonably have access to as well.

Their dread options (bar death co) can be easily made into options on existing dreads for all chapters to have. Their reclusiarchs are fundamentally chaplains, and their sanguinary priests are basically apothecaries. One of these options already exists, and the other one should be an option for all marines anyways.

They already lost their unique claim to the Stormraven, so I don't see much of a reason for them to hang on to the concept of the Baal Pred. Those pred variants almost exist through FW anyways, and having a true tank option would be great for all marine chapters. BA would be the only ones with 'Fast', but the tank could have scout to fill the FA role a little better. Now everyone gets a little extra variety.

Special wargear like hand flamers and infernus pistols should be options available to anyone anyways. Things like Glaive Encarmines could be special to them, or just add an option to MC every power weapon in an honour guard squad. Then give honour guard a jet pack option, and they can act as a budget Sang Guard. I'm not opposed to Sang Guard being one of BA's exclusive units in a roll in, but I'd like to keep it to one, which I think should go to Death Company.

Death company would be their unique troops choice, like BTs Crusader squads.

Then you give them a CT, three SCs, maybe an upgrade SC, and call it a day.

Captures their feel, cuts the bloat, adds variety for all marine chapters, saves money buying multiple codices for largely redundant armies, and reduces the number of armies needed to balance the game.

I don't think BA need to hang on to the whole gamut of SCs they currently have, nor do they need a special psyker table. Every other marine book lost their special powers and rolls on BRB powers, so I think that's what BA should do as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MephistonLoD wrote:
For feth sakes, NO! This is such a stupid subject. It's never going to happen, for anyone thinking it can, you clearly no nothing about the Blood Angels if you think they can just "roll them into C:SM nicely".

Care to elaborate with a little more reasoning? Telling people they're wrong without stating why in a sensible manner isn't going to convince anyone.

Pretty much all the Space Marine variants can be rolled into CSM with a Supplement.