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 Vaktathi wrote:
$27.17 according to http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=20&year1=2000&year2=2014

and I think $20 is high for those ones, the 60-70 page softcover full codex books were $20 still in 2006/2007.

Thank you very much!

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But, people want them back in the regular Codex! How can you?! There are so many new and exciting units that will suddenly become invalidated. A supplement, they cry? No, that will be unwieldy. Just leave them with their own codex.

TL;DR, the units that make C: BA special aren't all that special and can be represented with regular marine rules and some CT thrown in for flavor. As said previously, the rules don't make the army the people who play them do.

Completely agreed.
I think that having all Marines equal in points and the basic stuff they share is more important than every single Wolfwolfwolfgun or Bloody Bloodblade.

Supplement: BA for C:SM

Will have dedicated pages for fluff
Will allow every single wargear and trick from C:SM.
Will make Assault Marines troops.
Will give Red Thirst to your army (rage and Fearless on a roll of 1 or 2 for every unit).
Will allow following units:
- Death Company
- Sanguinary Guard
- Sanguinary Priest
- Baal Predator
As well as following characters:
- Dante
- Mephiston
- Brother Corbulo
- Sanguinior
You'll have the ability to:
- Upgrade chaplain to reclusiarches
- Upgrade Dreadnoughts to Furiosos (basicly renamed Venerables with new wargear)
We'll get couple of artifacts and following weapons:
- Infernus pistols
- Hand flamers

The only problem I truly see here is that you must now buy two books.
The fact that you can now play them as any SM army and that BA are now equal and don't lack stuff like Gravy guns make up for it IMO

Absolutely. Theyre not any more divergent than BT was or DA pre 6th. Roll em all in. Wouldnt want GW to look like they were only picking on certain paying Marine customers would we?

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Absolutely. Theyre not any more divergent than BT was or DA pre 6th. Roll em all in. Wouldnt want GW to look like they were only picking on certain paying Marine customers would we?

Yeah! Chaos already gets that enough as is.

Blood Angels really ought to be rolled in. Give them some Chapter Tactics, their heroes and a Death Company and Golden Boys entry (similar to the Crusaders squads). Red Space Marines that get a bit ragey and like to use jump packs more than others do not warrant their own codex. The same could be said with Dark Angels. Just give them their heroes and Chapter Tactics, then let you unlock DW/RW if you take Belial/Sammael respectively, or Azrael to get both.

 soomemafia wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But, people want them back in the regular Codex! How can you?! There are so many new and exciting units that will suddenly become invalidated. A supplement, they cry? No, that will be unwieldy. Just leave them with their own codex.

TL;DR, the units that make C: BA special aren't all that special and can be represented with regular marine rules and some CT thrown in for flavor. As said previously, the rules don't make the army the people who play them do.

Completely agreed.
I think that having all Marines equal in points and the basic stuff they share is more important than every single Wolfwolfwolfgun or Bloody Bloodblade.

Supplement: BA for C:SM

Will have dedicated pages for fluff
Will allow every single wargear and trick from C:SM.
Will make Assault Marines troops.
Will give Red Thirst to your army (rage and Fearless on a roll of 1 or 2 for every unit).
Will allow following units:
- Death Company
- Sanguinary Guard
- Sanguinary Priest
- Baal Predator
As well as following characters:
- Dante
- Mephiston
- Brother Corbulo
- Sanguinior
You'll have the ability to:
- Upgrade chaplain to reclusiarches
- Upgrade Dreadnoughts to Furiosos (basicly renamed Venerables with new wargear)
We'll get couple of artifacts and following weapons:
- Infernus pistols
- Hand flamers

The only problem I truly see here is that you must now buy two books.
The fact that you can now play them as any SM army and that BA are now equal and don't lack stuff like Gravy guns make up for it IMO

I don't think you have to go that far. I will repost a CT I made up earlier with some additions that should cover what makes BA BA.

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels
At the start of the game, roll a D6 for every unit of the detachment using this Chapter Tactic. On a 1 or a 2, they gain Rage and Fearless.

Rapid Assault:
Assault Marines may be taken as Troops choices and Vanguard Veterans may be taken as Fast Attack (I think that's how it works for BA. If not it should). In addition all Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds and Vindicators in this detachment gain the Fast special rule.

Death Company:
For 5 points per model any Assault Squad, Dreadnought or Captain may upgrade to Death Company. They gain the rage, fearless and furious charge special rules in addition to +1 A and +1WS. They also may take items from the melee and special weapons list.

There, now you have Fast tanks, Jet Packs out the wazoo and you get Death Company without need a ton of additional pages. Just throw in a page or two of fluff, take out some Ultras SC, throw in Dante and Mephiston and you're good to go. I believe the main codex should give you rules so that you can get a flavorful army with the supplement being entirely optional. I am up in the air about throwing in the Baal Predator as a tank any marine chapter can take but for now I think we should leave it BA only.

I would put a bit more detail into BA into SM:

Wargear- Add Inferno pistols and hand flamers as weapon options for all.

HQ:
Add Bike and Jump pack options to Honor Guard. Honor guard with JP, bolt pistol, and relic blade is basically Sanguinary guard. And Bike Honor Guard would be good for White Scars

Add jump pack options to command squad- covers Blood Angels and Raven Guard. Give apothecaries weapon options as well, and absorb Sang Priests into base Apothecaries.

Allow Chapter Master and Captain with jump pack to unlock 10 man assault marines with jump packs as troops, similar to how they do bikes now.

Chaplain, Librarian- allow to buy an additional wound and attack for say 35 points. Would cover Reclusiarchs.

Elites:
Allow base dreadnoughts to upgrade into venerable, librarian, or chaplain dreads.

Add weapon options from Furioso dread to Ironclad dread.

Death Company- chapter locked unit, like Crusader squad for Templars.

Fast:
Baal Predator- chapter locked unit.


Chapter Tactics-
Descent of Angels- units with jump packs scatter d6 when using deep strike rules rather than 2d6
Red Thirst- roll a d6 for each unit and dreadnought. On a 6, they replace ATSKNF with Rage and Fearless.

Wargear- add Overcharged engines to the vehicle armory- rhino hull vehicles for 10 points, makes them a fast vehicle. Baal Pred comes with it built in.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I did not want to get involved, but I feel responsible for the creation of this thread and I should chime in.

Ignoring the fact that we are talking about Blood Angels.

What if the fundamental reason for being against another “Codex: Marine of a Different Color” if you don’t plan on buying it?
It won’t cost you a dime and the guy on the other side of the table his happy with his “Codex: Marine of a Different Color”.

Addressing the whole Black Templar issue: I was one of the first to when I heard you got rolled into Codex: Space Marine to decry it as Bull and would never wish that on anyone. If I had my way you would have gotten your Full Codex: Black Templar before I got me new Codex: Space Wolves

I suppose there a couple of different reasons for it. If Codex: Blood Angels was rolled into the regular Space Marine dex the army would receive an update so it keeps the army up to date with the current 40k environment. I want to see Blood Angels on the table top and have them put up a fight.

Another reason is that it seems silly for them to have their own Codex when other variant armies don't even get a supplement. There is no Codex for Cadia or Vostroya so what makes the Marines so special? Why don't we have Codex: Imperial Fists or Codex: White Scars? Games Workshop could make up marines+1 units for them if they wanted. It's the principle of it all. Besides that, it seems wholly unecessary since there are few actually unique units to the Blood Angels. Space Wolves have thunder wolf cavalry at the very least. What Blood Angels have could be covered by a CT and a few unique options.

I never understand this line of thinking.

"These armies don't get it, so no one should"

As was stated so well before, why not?

Yet again I've seen several people just say "oh sure you can roll them in, they only have like, what, two special things and fast vehicles right?"

Tossing out over a dozen unique options is NOT acceptable. Having people end up with a bunch of GW models they can't even set on the table legally is NOT acceptable. 1 or 2 for reasons like doom of malan'tai and spore pods? Maybe, but those didn't even have models, so that's a non-issue here.

So for everyone who comes in just skimming that doesn't know the BA codex or play against them, and thinks they're just marines with a couple extra options, here's your mandatory educational post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

I'll try and make a list right quick for you.

Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.

Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.

Fluff: BA have a slightly different career path for their marines, so the "shared" units need to mention how BA does theirs differently, then each unique unit needs its own fluff page.

Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

And when I made that list, I also forgot the deep striking land raiders! I have to state again, that properly inserting all the options so that the BA at LEAST get a lateral move, instead of being gutted, when moving them into a combined codex, would require a huge section of the codex. More than any other chapter by far. The C:SM would become "C:BA and some other marines' special characters, + a crusader unit." Not exactly a thrilling title.

Just going through what I posted, you need at least a couple lines of fluff nodding at the BA for all the shared units (like a quick mention that Blood Angels go to assault squads first instead of devastators, etc.) So let's just call that an extra page of text necessary. Now you need a page for each unique unit. Ok that's 11 pages. Now we need 8 more for the unique special characters. Then we go over to the points section, and at an average of 3 units a page, the BA ONLY units will take up over 6 pages in the points section. Then we need about half a page to do a paragraph blurb about each of the unique wargears, and a few lines in the wargear section for the point costs, plus the little asterisk that denotes them as BA ONLY options. And the couple lines about lucifer pattern engines in all the rhino chassis vehicles in the fluff, and the same asterisk in their points section next to a fast vehicle option. So all told that's about another page of text right there. Then you need paint sections. All the SC's can fit on one, and the other units can share at 2 a page, so about 5 and a half, then at least a picture for the BA paintjob on the shared units, combining up to another page and a half, and then a page just showing the BA successor color schemes. AND LASTLY, there's about 16 pages of fluff in the BA codex about homeworld, major battles and the like, so let's assume that they GUT half of that to put in a shoddy 8 pages of army/battle fluff here and there. Oh, and two more pages for psychic powers descriptions and random table.

All told, that's around FOURTY THREE FULL PAGES of content. That means that anyone who DID NOT buy the book with the intent of playing, painting, modeling, or reading about Blood Angels can rip out FOURTY THREE PAGES and be totally unaffected.

I'm pretty damn sure most people would read that new book and start complaining that they keep running into "* denotes Blood Angels only" items and pages waaaaaaaay more than they want to. "God why not just give them their own book at this point." would probably come up a lot.

To which I would have to respond: "Ya don't say..."

niv-mizzet wrote:


Yet again I've seen several people just say "oh sure you can roll them in, they only have like, what, two special things and fast vehicles right?"

Tossing out over a dozen unique options is NOT acceptable. Having people end up with a bunch of GW models they can't even set on the table legally is NOT acceptable. 1 or 2 for reasons like doom of malan'tai and spore pods? Maybe, but those didn't even have models, so that's a non-issue here.

So for everyone who comes in just skimming that doesn't know the BA codex or play against them, and thinks they're just marines with a couple extra options, here's your mandatory educational post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

I'll try and make a list right quick for you.

Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.

Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.

Fluff: BA have a slightly different career path for their marines, so the "shared" units need to mention how BA does theirs differently, then each unique unit needs its own fluff page.

Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

And when I made that list, I also forgot the deep striking land raiders! I have to state again, that properly inserting all the options so that the BA at LEAST get a lateral move, instead of being gutted, when moving them into a combined codex, would require a huge section of the codex. More than any other chapter by far. The C:SM would become "C:BA and some other marines' special characters, + a crusader unit." Not exactly a thrilling title.

Just going through what I posted, you need at least a couple lines of fluff nodding at the BA for all the shared units (like a quick mention that Blood Angels go to assault squads first instead of devastators, etc.) So let's just call that an extra page of text necessary. Now you need a page for each unique unit. Ok that's 11 pages. Now we need 8 more for the unique special characters. Then we go over to the points section, and at an average of 3 units a page, the BA ONLY units will take up over 6 pages in the points section. Then we need about half a page to do a paragraph blurb about each of the unique wargears, and a few lines in the wargear section for the point costs, plus the little asterisk that denotes them as BA ONLY options. And the couple lines about lucifer pattern engines in all the rhino chassis vehicles in the fluff, and the same asterisk in their points section next to a fast vehicle option. So all told that's about another page of text right there. Then you need paint sections. All the SC's can fit on one, and the other units can share at 2 a page, so about 5 and a half, then at least a picture for the BA paintjob on the shared units, combining up to another page and a half, and then a page just showing the BA successor color schemes. AND LASTLY, there's about 16 pages of fluff in the BA codex about homeworld, major battles and the like, so let's assume that they GUT half of that to put in a shoddy 8 pages of army/battle fluff here and there. Oh, and two more pages for psychic powers descriptions and random table.

All told, that's around FOURTY THREE FULL PAGES of content. That means that anyone who DID NOT buy the book with the intent of playing, painting, modeling, or reading about Blood Angels can rip out FOURTY THREE PAGES and be totally unaffected.

I'm pretty damn sure most people would read that new book and start complaining that they keep running into "* denotes Blood Angels only" items and pages waaaaaaaay more than they want to. "God why not just give them their own book at this point." would probably come up a lot.

To which I would have to respond: "Ya don't say..."

you forgot the Blade Encarmine

One thing that has never been brought up was this:

What chapter of Space Marines had another stand alone game that revolved around them?

Blood Angels. Space Hulk. Now there were expansions for it that involved the DA Deathwing. Every edition of Space Hulk started with the Blood Angels. They are Iconic to GW and will not be rolled into the SM codex ... ever.

Brother Weasel wrote:
you forgot the Blade Encarmine

Son of a...

Another amusing tidbit with figures: The 6th edition C:SM, after removing table of contents/index and a few section-split art pages and some of those latin things, is around 160 pages. Toss in the Blood Angels, and you make it 200.

This means that if you open the book to any given point, and read FIVE sentences, odds dictate that at least one was SPECIFICALLY about the Blood Angels, whether it was in the painting, fluff, or crunch sections.

 FirePainter wrote:
Now I will admit to not being an expert on BA but aren't most of the "unique" units from the 5th edition codex and their previous codices did not have things like Baal preds, the sanguinor, sang guard? Honestly curious what has been unique about BA since their first codex back in 2nd?

I am going to bring this up again. As it is my understanding most of the unique things are from the 5th edition codex. Prior to that there was no such thing as sanguinor, sang guard. Baal preds have been around since 4th? 3rd? In addition, Sang guard are basically honour guard with jump packs. Sang priests are apothecaries with weapon/wargear options. DC are a truely unique unit and would remain. The models used currently would not be invalidated, they would simply be repurposed.

Going from scouts to assault marines instead of devestators and explaining other chapter differences would take the same amount of space that it took to say that salamanders have companies of 120 and their terminatos are called firedrakes. Or that due to having limited numbers crimison fist sternguards are scoring. Really its not that tough.


*DA player that would support a giant all-in-one C:SM that has every marine chapter from UM to SW and everthing in-between*
Was I sad when DA lost mortis dreads? Was I sad when white scars can do biker armies as good or better than ravenwing? really the unique things in DA/BT/BA/SW could all be done in a large book. Would it cost more sure but think of the content that could be in there if it was done right not that I think GW would ever get it right but I still dream.

They could put them all into one book and charge an armload... but Uhhh, I'd prefer not to spend that money on a bunch of stuff for SW, DA, UM, etc.... I'm perfectly happy not paying 2x as much for my codex to have the information relevant to my Blood Angels.

(and yes the Baal was in the 3rd minidex)

If done right they do not have to. All the variant codices are are a bunch of C:SM units with extra gubbins and a few FOC modifications. I don't think it would double the book if they rolled it all together.

@BrotherWeasel

Why not? Well, because I don't think the actual difference between a Blood Angel army and an Ultramarine army justifies a unique codex. The difference between a Necron and Imperial Guard army is huuge in terms of gameplay, stats, wargear and models. Then you look at Dark Angels and Space Wolves and.. what? They get some Wolves and... yeah, they still have powered armored guys with almost the exact same statlines and wargear. In fact, the codices are so similar that it's considered okay to use the same models for every marine variant codex as long as you account for the few unique wargear options.These books read like the rules portion of C:SM with a supplement stapled on.

Now, speaking in the world of reality I understand the issues people take with having to buy a Codex+supplement to get their Space Wolves fix. You are paying double for the same rules and a lot you don't even need like the rules of Marneus Calgar. To be honest, I think the Codices should be rolled together but I hope they aren't. Games Workshop is a money grubbing bunch and are, most of all, bad at rules writing.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
One thing that has never been brought up was this:

What chapter of Space Marines had another stand alone game that revolved around them?

Blood Angels. Space Hulk. Now there were expansions for it that involved the DA Deathwing. Every edition of Space Hulk started with the Blood Angels. They are Iconic to GW and will not be rolled into the SM codex ... ever.

Well UM has the space marine game and the Blood Ravens have 2 games plus multiple expansions with them as the center of attention.

 Lobukia wrote:
Looking at the Iron Hands supplement, BA would totally work
Make Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinor, Astorath. Then make relics that give you items that'd let you approximate the others.

Chapter Tactics, DoA and Red thirst, Vanguards gain rage, Assault as Troops.

Special Euipment: Flamestorm for Predators, and a couple weapons for Iron Clads. For 5 points per model Honour Guard get Jpacks and are allowed to buy PF and PPistols.

I really don't think infernus needs to stay, but maybe just a line letting Assault Marines pack 1 special weapon too.

Add a new unit (I'd think Apothecaries that can Wolf Guard out)

Done. Very close, very simple, missing little (if anything) that matters. Before you ask, yes I've played BA and I think this gets everything needed and none of the silly Marines +1 stuff that made us all rage the last BA codex (you're not keeping fast vehicles anyway).

5 pages for the units not in the Codex, and 1 page to explain above changes... that's supplement length right there

 TheCustomLime wrote:

@BrotherWeasel

Why not? Well, because I don't think the actual difference between a Blood Angel army and an Ultramarine army justifies a unique codex. The difference between a Necron and Imperial Guard army is huuge in terms of gameplay, stats, wargear and models. Then you look at Dark Angels and Space Wolves and.. what? They get some Wolves and... yeah, they still have powered armored guys with almost the exact same statlines and wargear. In fact, the codices are so similar that it's considered okay to use the same models for every marine variant codex as long as you account for the few unique wargear options.These books read like the rules portion of C:SM with a supplement stapled on.

But that doesn't explain why not yes they could make the BA parts smaller, toss em into the sm dex, they could make a suppliment (like 3rd) they could expand them farther and make a huge BA book...

But it doesn't benefit anyone to roll it into the SM dex. and it doesn't hurt anyone to leave it as it's own dex (as it has been since 3rd, and a dual dex in second)

I just don't see a reason to do it...

Don't get me wrong either, I'd probably prefer a suppliment when it all comes down to it, only to keep the things that are the same, the same (IE tac squad, as per codex SM) like 3rd was... but with more fluff and whatnot... (so a bigger then normal suppliment, or a full codex that just happens to have the entries say "per codex SM' where relevent.

Brother Weasel wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

@BrotherWeasel

Why not? Well, because I don't think the actual difference between a Blood Angel army and an Ultramarine army justifies a unique codex. The difference between a Necron and Imperial Guard army is huuge in terms of gameplay, stats, wargear and models. Then you look at Dark Angels and Space Wolves and.. what? They get some Wolves and... yeah, they still have powered armored guys with almost the exact same statlines and wargear. In fact, the codices are so similar that it's considered okay to use the same models for every marine variant codex as long as you account for the few unique wargear options.These books read like the rules portion of C:SM with a supplement stapled on.

But that doesn't explain why not yes they could make the BA parts smaller, toss em into the sm dex, they could make a suppliment (like 3rd) they could expand them farther and make a huge BA book...

But it doesn't benefit anyone to roll it into the SM dex. and it doesn't hurt anyone to leave it as it's own dex (as it has been since 3rd, and a dual dex in second)

I just don't see a reason to do it...

Don't get me wrong either, I'd probably prefer a suppliment when it all comes down to it, only to keep the things that are the same, the same (IE tac squad, as per codex SM) like 3rd was... but with more fluff and whatnot... (so a bigger then normal suppliment, or a full codex that just happens to have the entries say "per codex SM' where relevent.

I suppose the fact that them being too similar to an already established army is enough for some, including me. I don't think there is anything objective to show any reason why they shouldn't besides a slower update schedule. In my opinion, variants of an army should be kept to a $20 supplement to a codex.

To be even more honest I am starting to lean towards the "Keep their own Codex" camp. Really, what Blood Angels have right now is basically a supplement with the pertinent part of the SM codex there for them gratis. Why make them pay more for what they already have?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

@BrotherWeasel

Why not? Well, because I don't think the actual difference between a Blood Angel army and an Ultramarine army justifies a unique codex. The difference between a Necron and Imperial Guard army is huuge in terms of gameplay, stats, wargear and models. Then you look at Dark Angels and Space Wolves and.. what? They get some Wolves and... yeah, they still have powered armored guys with almost the exact same statlines and wargear. In fact, the codices are so similar that it's considered okay to use the same models for every marine variant codex as long as you account for the few unique wargear options.These books read like the rules portion of C:SM with a supplement stapled on.

But that doesn't explain why not yes they could make the BA parts smaller, toss em into the sm dex, they could make a suppliment (like 3rd) they could expand them farther and make a huge BA book...

But it doesn't benefit anyone to roll it into the SM dex. and it doesn't hurt anyone to leave it as it's own dex (as it has been since 3rd, and a dual dex in second)

I just don't see a reason to do it...

Don't get me wrong either, I'd probably prefer a suppliment when it all comes down to it, only to keep the things that are the same, the same (IE tac squad, as per codex SM) like 3rd was... but with more fluff and whatnot... (so a bigger then normal suppliment, or a full codex that just happens to have the entries say "per codex SM' where relevent.

I suppose the fact that them being too similar to an already established army is enough for some, including me. I don't think there is anything objective to show any reason why they shouldn't besides a slower update schedule. In my opinion, variants of an army should be kept to a $20 supplement to a codex.

To be even more honest I am starting to lean towards the "Keep their own Codex" camp. Really, what Blood Angels have right now is basically a supplement with the pertinent part of the SM codex there for them gratis. Why make them pay more for what they already have?

Indeed.. the only part i don't like is the time between codex SM and codex BA having such a huge diffrence in our shared people... But i do like that i don't have to buy codex SM and a suppliment...

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But, people want them back in the regular Codex! How can you?! There are so many new and exciting units that will suddenly become invalidated. A supplement, they cry? No, that will be unwieldy. Just leave them with their own codex.

TL;DR, the units that make C: BA special aren't all that special and can be represented with regular marine rules and some CT thrown in for flavor. As said previously, the rules don't make the army the people who play them do.

Completely agreed.
I think that having all Marines equal in points and the basic stuff they share is more important than every single Wolfwolfwolfgun or Bloody Bloodblade.

Supplement: BA for C:SM

Will have dedicated pages for fluff
Will allow every single wargear and trick from C:SM.
Will make Assault Marines troops.
Will give Red Thirst to your army (rage and Fearless on a roll of 1 or 2 for every unit).
Will allow following units:
- Death Company
- Sanguinary Guard
- Sanguinary Priest
- Baal Predator
As well as following characters:
- Dante
- Mephiston
- Brother Corbulo
- Sanguinior
You'll have the ability to:
- Upgrade chaplain to reclusiarches
- Upgrade Dreadnoughts to Furiosos (basicly renamed Venerables with new wargear)
We'll get couple of artifacts and following weapons:
- Infernus pistols
- Hand flamers

The only problem I truly see here is that you must now buy two books.
The fact that you can now play them as any SM army and that BA are now equal and don't lack stuff like Gravy guns make up for it IMO

I don't think you have to go that far. I will repost a CT I made up earlier with some additions that should cover what makes BA BA.

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels
At the start of the game, roll a D6 for every unit of the detachment using this Chapter Tactic. On a 1 or a 2, they gain Rage and Fearless.

Rapid Assault:
Assault Marines may be taken as Troops choices and Vanguard Veterans may be taken as Fast Attack (I think that's how it works for BA. If not it should). In addition all Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds and Vindicators in this detachment gain the Fast special rule.

Death Company:
For 5 points per model any Assault Squad, Dreadnought or Captain may upgrade to Death Company. They gain the rage, fearless and furious charge special rules in addition to +1 A and +1WS. They also may take items from the melee and special weapons list.

There, now you have Fast tanks, Jet Packs out the wazoo and you get Death Company without need a ton of additional pages. Just throw in a page or two of fluff, take out some Ultras SC, throw in Dante and Mephiston and you're good to go. I believe the main codex should give you rules so that you can get a flavorful army with the supplement being entirely optional. I am up in the air about throwing in the Baal Predator as a tank any marine chapter can take but for now I think we should leave it BA only.

As I maybe mentioned before, I like this solution. Simple.
But I will not accept the removal of Sang Guard, Priests or Corbulo. Never. And many other BA players have similar issues with several different units or models.
"Oh, I've spent 200 bucks and countless hours into this awesome Sanguinary Guard army. Now at least they make beautiful objective markers".

Truth is that I would be willing to go with supplement, but GW will never do that. Well never is a strong word, but not in this edition at least. Maybe in the distant future, but at the moment they would need to remove several boxes from sale and that doesn't sound like the GW I know.

EVeryone keeps saying you'll lose Sanguinary Guard, but... you won't. They're just Honour Guard with jump packs and relic blades built into their base cost.

I think the main problem with the Codex+Supplement solution is Games Workshop's pants on head slowed pricing structure. You are basically turning one Codex into two with one being full of useless rules. In a better universe, Blood Angels would be rolled into the main codex with a $10-20 supplement being available for purchase if you want the more specialized units like San Guard. As it stands, I pray, for the BA player's wallet sake, that they keep the boys in red as a separate army.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think the main problem with the Codex+Supplement solution is Games Workshop's pants on head slowed pricing structure. You are basically turning one Codex into two with one being full of useless rules. In a better universe, Blood Angels would be rolled into the main codex with a $10-20 supplement being available for purchase if you want the more specialized units like San Guard. As it stands, I pray, for the BA player's wallet sake, that they keep the boys in red as a separate army.

I doubt they are doing anything but making a codex witch is fine by me... I was just getting ready to redo my BA force anyways, no matter what they do... (i'll hold off on my angels sanguine all DC force till i get a new codex though)

I wonder how many of the posters adamant that nothing be removed from the codex played before 5th?

Lets be real here. There is a lot of garbage in the current book. Deep Striking Land Raiders is a stupid idea. Why would you want to keep it? If you want to throw away 250 pts. save yourself the trouble of putting the model together and just play short points.

Anyway, to get my credentials out of the way. I have played Blood Angels since the dawn of third edition. Back when we really were just red space marines. With each codex we gain a unit or two, although this last one was bloated. A lot of the new stuff's purpose is to justify a separate codex. That's all. It isn't iconic or even necessary. So I have no problem with the BAs being folded into the CSM book. We are a slightly divergent codex chapter. Our rules and models should reflect that.

So the question is: "What makes an army; Blood Angels?" For me the answer is simple: Is your Primarch Sanguinius? Do you have a Death Company? If you answered yes to both then welcome aboard. Our own book with fancy, and often useless rules, doesn't make us any more or any less Blood Angels.


Lets look at the unique models in our army list:

Dante: Keep
Seth: Drop, put him in the Flesh Tearer Supplement. Their going to get one.
Astorath: Drop, doesn't add much. I have seen him played twice since the model came out. I played him once and my friend played him once. meh both times.
Sanguinor: Drop, should have just given us LotD.
Mephiston: Keep, his rules are going to change with the new codex. Get use to the idea.
Tycho: Drop, he is my boy, but he should be in the Armageddon campaign book.
Jump Pack Honor Guard: Fluffy, but not just for us. Raven Guard should have them too.
Sanguinary Guard: Blinged out Vanguard Veterans
Furioso: Fun, but silly no one else's big robot can have two arms.
Sanguinary Priests: Over priced and near useless. I get more use out of the power weapon he carries than any special rules he has. Leave him in the Command Squad.
Corbulo: Colorful, but unnecessary.
Death Company: Defining Unit.
Lemartes: Make him the special character that unlocks the DC.
Death Dread: fun, but unnecessary.
Scoring Assault Squad: I played a long time without scoring AS, and in 6th they are just pigs with lipstick. I run two of these and one tact squad. The Tacticals always pull their weight. the AS not so much.
Baal: Ours since third, so we keep it. I find it odd the AM would give us the stormraven, since they're still mad we didn't share the Baal with them. I really like my Baal Preds, but I'm willing to share.

So to sum up all we really need is Dante, Mephiston, & Death Company.


For BA Chapter Tactics I would do these:

Shadow of the Primarch: All models in this detachment have Furious Charge.
Descent of Angels Any model/Unit performing a deep strike get a +1 to reserve rolls and only scatter d6.


Of course it won't happen, but I think 40k would be healthier if GW dropped some of the armies. Since they have proven they can't support this many armies properly.

what is so wrong about them adding or expanding units in the divergent dexs to make them more unique? I actually want them to go farther to make the separate dexs play different.

the idea that its not ok because they do it to justify having a separate dex is a little odd to me , the game makes the fluff not the other way around. this isn't some historical game where they re-wrote history just to add stuff into a game.

 BlackArmour wrote:
what is so wrong about them adding or expanding units in the divergent dexs to make them more unique? I actually want them to go farther to make the separate dexs play different.

the idea that its not ok because they do it to justify having a separate dex is a little odd to me , the game makes the fluff not the other way around. this isn't some historical game where they re-wrote history just to add stuff into a game.

Because then we have a dozen codices that are all fundamentally the same thing; guys in power armour with bolters who have ATSKNF. They all use rhinos, and razorbacks, and all the same vehicles and general infantry units and support stuff. Why produce the same thing over and over again when it doesn't really add any real variety to the game and completely ignores every other faction.

As much as it'd be great if every single sub faction from every race had a book, it'd be so ridiculously over the top that balancing and remembering what does what that no one would play it. To that end, from a gameplay perspective, it makes sense to have all the marines (who are all virtually the same thing) in one book and let the players excercise a little imagination in developing a unique army.

You don't need a dozen special rules and every single piece of wargear represented to a 't' to have a unique, flavourful army. IG players get by just fine, as do Eldar and Orks. Every single marine chapter you can ever think of is easily represented by a well done CT, a small handful of SCs, and a unique unit. It cuts down on bloat, is easier to keep balanced and updated, and still retains the same playstyle and feel. It just means that instead of being able to take a unit called 'Sanguinary Priests', you have to buy a unit called 'Apothecary' and give him a red paint job with blood drops everywhere and simply refer to it by its fluffy name for your chapter. The same way Salamander players can call ordinary terminators 'Firedrakes' instead. They don't need a unit with that exact name and a slight change to represent a fluffy unit.

Now, I understand marines sell, and that's why we're stuck with half a dozen of them, but in a purely hypothetical world, it would make for a better game to have marines represented by a loyalist book and a traitor book. Which would also conveniently handle the old legions better too, cause they got kind of shafted this time around...and the last time too.

 BlackArmour wrote:
what is so wrong about them adding or expanding units in the divergent dexs to make them more unique? I actually want them to go farther to make the separate dexs play different.

the idea that its not ok because they do it to justify having a separate dex is a little odd to me , the game makes the fluff not the other way around. this isn't some historical game where they re-wrote history just to add stuff into a game.

I have no problem expanding an armies choices if it improves the story of the army. But I hold that most if not all of the additions in the last codex could be removed without impact to the feel and theme of the Blood Angels. 5th and particularly 6th edition is the GONZO edition. Just keep adding stuff to sell stuff. This is how you end up with marines riding wolves or games where two enemy fortifications happen to be next door to each other.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Why not take and roll Chaos Marines into C:SM as well they are just marines with spikey bits? They only have a few different units and all of their special rules could be covered with a quick blurb. One could roll them into Chaos Deamons book too ...this could be justified by them hanging out with bad things.

You know what, I would love that. Then maybe we would actually see some supplements.