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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unjamming a storm bolter is not a simple matter of singing praise to the machine spirit.

The praise merely soothes the spirit and guides your hands as you clear the jam. AdMech rituals are mnemonic instruction manuals.

And considering tau weapons are a bit like las weapons in the fact that they have no actual moving parts, I don;t think pulse weapons can jam, other than the under-slung GL with the carbine.

And that made me think of something. We have to take into consideration that the tau actually have two basic weapon. They both have the same damage, clip, availability, ect. But one has a long range and is otherwise normal for RoF, while the other has a slightly shorter range, but a faster RoF, built in GL, and the option to connect a markerlight. That would definitely increase their customization number.

I'm going to have to think about this now but this is how I'm going to rate the weapons
Damage: 0-10 [0-5 for anti-infantry, 0-5 for anti-vehicle) how much damage they deal]
Range: 0-5 [total range]
Availability: 0-5 [A combination of the cost/ease of production, and availability]
RoF: 0-5 [How fast it fire]
Customization: 0-5 [special ammo, add-ons, ect.]
Ammunition: 0-5 [Clip size, ammunition availability/cost, physical (bad) or energy (good) ammunition, ect.]
Stability: 0-5 [stable or unstable firing, how often it jams, ec.]

You also have to account in who is firing it. A Big Shoota is a much better weapon for an Ork than for a human since the Ork is stronger and better able to handle the recoil etc. The same thing with Marines and bolters, etc.

 Daba wrote:
By fluff

1. Shuriken Catapult
Last. Everything else.

Shuriken Catapult actually has a great range, like that of a bolter, fires at over 1000 RPM and each shuriken can penetrate several inches of armour. Not only that, but in the hands of the Eldar it's energy efficient and reliable. Basically, being on the receiving end would be akin to becoming red/green/grey mist.

I agree

there was some white dwarf fluff long ago about an ogryn coming back from going outside a bunker, the bone 'ead guy trying to explain why his ogryn squad had not come back, to a commissar, while absent mindedly picking piles of shuriken fragments out and dropping them in a tin bucket .. and filling the bucket.. the disbelieving commissar opened the eye slat hatch to look and got liquefied by a point blank harelquin kiss

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You also have to account in who is firing it. A Big Shoota is a much better weapon for an Ork than for a human since the Ork is stronger and better able to handle the recoil etc. The same thing with Marines and bolters, etc.

I see what your getting at , and I have just assumed that the weapon itself is being shot by the person who wields it, I just don't consider the personas personal accuracy, training, resilience ect.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unjamming a storm bolter is not a simple matter of singing praise to the machine spirit.

The praise merely soothes the spirit and guides your hands as you clear the jam. AdMech rituals are mnemonic instruction manuals.

And considering tau weapons are a bit like las weapons in the fact that they have no actual moving parts, I don;t think pulse weapons can jam, other than the under-slung GL with the carbine.

And that made me think of something. We have to take into consideration that the tau actually have two basic weapon. They both have the same damage, clip, availabilty, ect. But one has a long range and is otherwise normal for RoF, while the other has a slightly shorter range, but a faster RoF, built in GL, and the option to connect a markerlight. That would definitly increase their customaztion number.

I'm going to have to think about this now but this is how I'm going to rate the weapons
Damage: 0-10 [90-5 for anti-infanrty, 0-5 for anti-vehicle) how much damage they deal]
Range: 0-5 [total range]
Availability: 0-5 [A combination of the cost/ease of production, and availability]
RoF: 0-5 [How fast it fire]
Customization: 0-5 [special ammo, addons, ect.]
Ammunition: 0-5 [Clip size, ammunition availability/cost, phisical (bad) or energy (good) ammuntion, ect.]
Stability: 0-5 [stable or unstable firing, how often it jams, ec.]

With anti-vehicle, remember that a pulse rifle and gauss flayer do the same against AV 11 and the pulse rifle performs better against AV 10... which is the rear armor of most vehicles.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unjamming a storm bolter is not a simple matter of singing praise to the machine spirit.

The praise merely soothes the spirit and guides your hands as you clear the jam. AdMech rituals are mnemonic instruction manuals.

And considering tau weapons are a bit like las weapons in the fact that they have no actual moving parts, I don;t think pulse weapons can jam, other than the under-slung GL with the carbine.

And that made me think of something. We have to take into consideration that the tau actually have two basic weapon. They both have the same damage, clip, availabilty, ect. But one has a long range and is otherwise normal for RoF, while the other has a slightly shorter range, but a faster RoF, built in GL, and the option to connect a markerlight. That would definitly increase their customaztion number.

I'm going to have to think about this now but this is how I'm going to rate the weapons
Damage: 0-10 [90-5 for anti-infanrty, 0-5 for anti-vehicle) how much damage they deal]
Range: 0-5 [total range]
Availability: 0-5 [A combination of the cost/ease of production, and availability]
RoF: 0-5 [How fast it fire]
Customization: 0-5 [special ammo, addons, ect.]
Ammunition: 0-5 [Clip size, ammunition availability/cost, phisical (bad) or energy (good) ammuntion, ect.]
Stability: 0-5 [stable or unstable firing, how often it jams, ec.]

With anti-vehicle, remember that a pulse rifle and gauss flayer do the same against AV 11 and the pulse rifle performs better against AV 10... which is the rear armor of most vehicles.

This based on the fluff though...

Well that's what I'm basing everything off of.

"The bolter really is 40k in a nutshell...such an absurd, unreliable, and impractical way to kill stuff; but very good at what does."

Not as absurd as you'd think. GW admitted that the original concept came from a Cold War Era project called GyroJet. The US was seriously considering the project because A) Almost no Recoil, B) considerably higher caliber capability, and C) More accurate when firing repeatedly (courtesy of no recoil). The only reason they scraped it was cost of production per firearm (which wasn't HIGH, per say, just more expensive than the M-16) and lack of reliability (expected with a new weapon, think 'Blackpowder' all over again)

Not saying the Bolter is good, I'd say most guns in game have it's number in at least two regards. But I find it fascinating that the Sci-Fi came second in this situation.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And being more complicated it would jam more.

But the Tau can't unjam their weapons just by singing praise to the Machine Spirit

They don't need to unjam their weapons, most of their weapons don't shoot a bullet or other solid projectile (at least burst cannons, pulse rifles, pulse carbines, fusion blasters, flamers, and ion weapons don't).

I keep seeing statements like "the Bolter is great and reliably punches thru power armor", this is true for a 1k sons marine with an ap3 magic bolter round but the basic one just has str4 ap5. Perfect for killing Orks, cultist and gaunts but against carapace or higher? The only way to really know how powerful any of the weapons, armor or any other tech in the 40k universe is for GW to release a technical manual for Imperial forces followed by one for the xenos. Those books would FLY of the shelves.

 mondo80 wrote:
I keep seeing statements like "the Bolter is great and reliably punches thru power armor", this is true for a 1k sons marine with an ap3 magic bolter round but the basic one just has str4 ap5. Perfect for killing Orks, cultist and gaunts but against carapace or higher? The only way to really know how powerful any of the weapons, armor or any other tech in the 40k universe is for GW to release a technical manual for Imperial forces followed by one for the xenos. Those books would FLY of the shelves.

Except we have numerous sources that point to the bolter being a superb anti armor weapon. Like shredding APC armor.

The Shuriken Catapult is a sidearm, not a standard line infantry weapon.

Guardians fight because the situation is dire, but are not standing troops. They're less regular than conscripts.

CW Eldar don't really have a line infantry weapon. The LasBlaster is probably closer.

 Sasori wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unjamming a storm bolter is not a simple matter of singing praise to the machine spirit.

The praise merely soothes the spirit and guides your hands as you clear the jam. AdMech rituals are mnemonic instruction manuals.

And considering tau weapons are a bit like las weapons in the fact that they have no actual moving parts, I don;t think pulse weapons can jam, other than the under-slung GL with the carbine.

And that made me think of something. We have to take into consideration that the tau actually have two basic weapon. They both have the same damage, clip, availabilty, ect. But one has a long range and is otherwise normal for RoF, while the other has a slightly shorter range, but a faster RoF, built in GL, and the option to connect a markerlight. That would definitly increase their customaztion number.

I'm going to have to think about this now but this is how I'm going to rate the weapons
Damage: 0-10 [90-5 for anti-infanrty, 0-5 for anti-vehicle) how much damage they deal]
Range: 0-5 [total range]
Availability: 0-5 [A combination of the cost/ease of production, and availability]
RoF: 0-5 [How fast it fire]
Customization: 0-5 [special ammo, addons, ect.]
Ammunition: 0-5 [Clip size, ammunition availability/cost, phisical (bad) or energy (good) ammuntion, ect.]
Stability: 0-5 [stable or unstable firing, how often it jams, ec.]

With anti-vehicle, remember that a pulse rifle and gauss flayer do the same against AV 11 and the pulse rifle performs better against AV 10... which is the rear armor of most vehicles.

This based on the fluff though...

There's not much Tau fluff... though, I remember shooting down a Valkyrie in Fire Warrior with a pulse rifle. How many other basic weapons make such fantastic anti-aircraft weapons?

Bharring wrote:
The Shuriken Catapult is a sidearm, not a standard line infantry weapon.

Guardians fight because the situation is dire, but are not standing troops. They're less regular than conscripts.

CW Eldar don't really have a line infantry weapon. The LasBlaster is probably closer.

No, the Lasblaster is a specialist weapon carried by a specific Aspect Shrine.

The Shuriken Catapult's three variants (Standard, Avenger, and the standard one that is mistakable for a lasgun) is by far their most common infantry weapon. Dire Avengers are the first line of defence of a Craftworld, after all.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The Shuriken Catapult is a sidearm, not a standard line infantry weapon.

Guardians fight because the situation is dire, but are not standing troops. They're less regular than conscripts.

CW Eldar don't really have a line infantry weapon. The LasBlaster is probably closer.

No, the Lasblaster is a specialist weapon carried by a specific Aspect Shrine.

The Shuriken Catapult's three variants (Standard, Avenger, and the standard one that is mistakable for a lasgun) is by far their most common infantry weapon. Dire Avengers are the first line of defence of a Craftworld, after all.

Depends on the Craftworld. Ulthwe, has a standing army of Guardians but very few Aspect Shrines, so for them, the Shuriken Catapult is the standard line infantry weapon.

Mine is based on the fluff.

1. Bolter - Apparently a marine with a bolter can kill whatever the Feth it wants to
2.Gauss Flayer - dont think i need to explain
3. Pulse Rifle - Range? yes please
4. shoota - Bigger baby Bolter
5. shuriken - IT FIRES NINJA DEATH STARS!!
6. Splinter Rifle - oh c'mon (D-) could do better
7. Lasgun - Guard are expendable... so are lasguns
8. Fleshborer - why do you think there are sop many of them?

I disagree with the above. I think the Fleshborer is superior to the Lasgun.

Either the Avenger variant or the LasBlaster.

Outcasts still use LasBlasters. If CWE have line troops, it's the Avenger.

Uthwe is barely holding on, and their vast Guardian forces are a mix of civilian militia, and some who have transitioned to full time militia (Black Guardians).

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Mine is based on the fluff.

1. Bolter - Apparently a marine with a bolter can kill whatever the Feth it wants to
2.Gauss Flayer - dont think i need to explain
3. Pulse Rifle - Range? yes please
4. shoota - Bigger baby Bolter
5. shuriken - IT FIRES NINJA DEATH STARS!!
6. Splinter Rifle - oh c'mon (D-) could do better
7. Lasgun - Guard are expendable... so are lasguns
8. Fleshborer - why do you think there are sop many of them?

I only really disagree with the bolter being being #1 and the shoota being #4
The pulse rifle is repeatedly stated in the fluff for being superior than the bolter, and the gauss flayer is most definetly superior to the pulse rifle (and thus the bollter).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Mine is based on the fluff.

1. Bolter - Apparently a marine with a bolter can kill whatever the Feth it wants to
2.Gauss Flayer - dont think i need to explain
3. Pulse Rifle - Range? yes please
4. shoota - Bigger baby Bolter
5. shuriken - IT FIRES NINJA DEATH STARS!!
6. Splinter Rifle - oh c'mon (D-) could do better
7. Lasgun - Guard are expendable... so are lasguns
8. Fleshborer - why do you think there are sop many of them?

I only really disagree with the bolter being being #1 and the shoota being #4
The pulse rifle is repeatedly stated in the fluff for being superior than the bolter, and the gauss flayer is most definetly superior to the pulse rifle (and thus the bollter).

And again, in actual practice this is complete bs, as Space Marines neutralize all of the negatives of pulse rifles, and pulse rifles are pretty much utterly useless against the greater threats the Imperium faces, such as Daemons or Chaos Space Marines. And again, bolters can turn APC's and other light vehicles into swiss cheese. And as a weapon system, where you might have to grab a bigger weapon like a tau railgun when Nids show up, astartes simply can lock and load hellfire rounds or vengeance rounds which significantly boosts the effectiveness of the gun. We aren't talking about normal humans using bolters, it's the effectiveness of the guns wielded by the main faction that uses them.

 Wyzilla wrote:

“'I'll never forget the noise,' he said. 'It was like a thunderstorm had suddenly sprung into existence, and our first five ranks were completely cut down, dead to a man without even the time to scream. The enemy's bolts tore limbs from bodies or simply burst men apart like wet sacks. I turned to shout something, I forget what exactly, when I felt a searing pain in the back of my head and I fell over the remains of a man who'd had his entire left side blown off. It looked like he'd exploded from the inside out.” / Tales of Heresy, p.353 - The Last Church

“He swung his bolter up. His weapon had a gash in the metal of the foregrip, the legacy of a greenskin’s axe during Ullanor, a cosmetic mark Loken had told the armourers not to finish out. He began to fire, not on burst, but on single shot, feeling the weapon buck and kick against his palms. Bolter rounds were explosive penetrators. The men he hit popped like blisters, or shredded like bursting fruit. Pink mist fumed off every ruptured figure as it fell.” / Horus Rising, p.25 - **

“Barsabbas reacted as he was drilled, pressuring them witha wide spread of automatic fire. The sudden volley of crackling bolt shells cut out in a semicircle. Rounds so heavy that even their passing shockwave haemorrhaged the brains nd organs of any target in a one-metre radius.” / Blood Gorgons, p.245 - **

“Two more interex soldiers came into view, another sagittar and a gleve. Loken, still running, shot them both before they could react. The force of his bolts, both torso-shots, threw the soldiers back against the wall, where they slithered to the ground. Abaddon had been wrong. The armour of the interex warriors was masterful, not weak. His rounds hadn’t penetrated the chest plates of either of the men, but the sheer, concussive force of the impacts had taken them out of the fight, probably pulping their innards.” / Horus Rising, p.628 - **

“”Brother Vardus opened fire a second later, raking the rear Testudo with an extended burst of heavy bolter fire. The mass-reactive rounds exploded against the APC’s armoured hide and gouged craters in its solid tyres. Here and there the rounds found a seam in the armour plates and penetrated into the APC, wreaking bloody havoc on the men crammed within. The Testudo lurched to a stop, smoke pouring from the holes punched in its side.”
Pg.165 FA

Get back to me when pulse rifles are nearly as freakishly effective as bolters and dishing out damage.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Mine is based on the fluff.

1. Bolter - Apparently a marine with a bolter can kill whatever the Feth it wants to
2.Gauss Flayer - dont think i need to explain
3. Pulse Rifle - Range? yes please
4. shoota - Bigger baby Bolter
5. shuriken - IT FIRES NINJA DEATH STARS!!
6. Splinter Rifle - oh c'mon (D-) could do better
7. Lasgun - Guard are expendable... so are lasguns
8. Fleshborer - why do you think there are sop many of them?

I only really disagree with the bolter being being #1 and the shoota being #4
The pulse rifle is repeatedly stated in the fluff for being superior than the bolter, and the gauss flayer is most definetly superior to the pulse rifle (and thus the bollter).

And again, in actual practice this is complete bs, as Space Marines neutralize all of the negatives of pulse rifles, and pulse rifles are pretty much utterly useless against the greater threats the Imperium faces, such as Daemons or Chaos Space Marines. And again, bolters can turn APC's and other light vehicles into swiss cheese. And as a weapon system, where you might have to grab a bigger weapon like a tau railgun when Nids show up, astartes simply can lock and load hellfire rounds or vengeance rounds which significantly boosts the effectiveness of the gun. We aren't talking about normal humans using bolters, it's the effectiveness of the guns wielded by the main faction that uses them.

Let me restate myself. Who is firing it has no affect on the weapon's score. Specialized rounds only have an affect on the customization. It is Only the gun itself we are talking about here.
Try rating them like this

Damage: 0-10 [0-5 for anti-infantry, 0-5 for anti-vehicle) how much damage they deal]
Range: 0-5 [total range]
Availability: 0-5 [A combination of the cost/ease of production, and availability]
RoF: 0-5 [How fast it fire]
Customization: 0-5 [special ammo, add-ons, ect.]
Ammunition: 0-5 [Clip size, ammunition availability/cost, physical (bad) or energy (good) ammunition, ect.]
Stability: 0-5 [stable or unstable firing, how often it jams, ec.]

I don't comprehend how shootas are getting ranked so consistently low.

Shootas have good strength. In game, they're equal to a bolter. And they've got great range for an assault weapon. And they're an assault weapon, so you can still chop after you shoot. But that's not all.

In the hands of an ork shootas have a 100% reliability ranking. Literally every time an ork picks one up and makes dakka noises, it starts spewing hot death. Furthermore, it's the only weapon with INFINITE AMMO. It never needs to be reloaded/recharged/swapped out, and there is a never-ending supply of it, so long as the shooter is able to make dakka noises.

Sure, it can't blow up a land raider, or take down monstrous creatures with ease, so it's not #1 or 2, but come on people, the shoota is way better than people are giving due.

They're inaccurate as hell. That's not just the lack of arms-drill on behalf of the Orks.. the bullets sometimes come out sideways.

And Gauss weapons do have infinite ammunition so long as they can connect to the tomb world.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't comprehend how shootas are getting ranked so consistently low.

Shootas have good strength. In game, they're equal to a bolter. And they've got great range for an assault weapon. And they're an assault weapon, so you can still chop after you shoot. But that's not all.

In the hands of an ork shootas have a 100% reliability ranking. Literally every time an ork picks one up and makes dakka noises, it starts spewing hot death. Furthermore, it's the only weapon with INFINITE AMMO. It never needs to be reloaded/recharged/swapped out, and there is a never-ending supply of it, so long as the shooter is able to make dakka noises.

Sure, it can't blow up a land raider, or take down monstrous creatures with ease, so it's not #1 or 2, but come on people, the shoota is way better than people are giving due.

I ranked shootas relatively low because they only work reliably for Orks - which gives them great Security, but poor Reliability and Versatility.

I did a complete list. I put both the pulse rifle and pulse carbine because they are both the basic weapon (something tau alone has). I also took out availability beacuse they were either almmost all 1 of it was just an average person or all 5 if it was the group.
Gauss Flayer: 27
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 4
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 5
Stability: 5

Pulse Rifle: 26
Damage: 8
Range: 5
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Pulse Carbine: 26
Damage: 8
Range: 2
RoF: 4
Customization: 4
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Shuriken Catapult: 25
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 4
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Splinter Rifle: 25
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 3
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 5

Bolter: 21
Damage: 6
Range: 3
RoF: 2
Customization: 5
Ammunition: 2
Stability: 3

Shoota: 17-19
Damage: 6
Range: 2
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 3-5
Stability: 2

Lasgun: 18
Damage: 1
Range: 3
RoF: 3
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Fleshborer: 18
Damage: 5
Range: 1
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 3
Stability: 4

 Ailaros wrote:

In the hands of an ork shootas have a 100% reliability ranking. Literally every time an ork picks one up and makes dakka noises, it starts spewing hot death. Furthermore, it's the only weapon with INFINITE AMMO. It never needs to be reloaded/recharged/swapped out, and there is a never-ending supply of it, so long as the shooter is able to make dakka noises.

I'm not sure if you're joking, but if you're serious then none of that is even slightly true. Nothing in the fluff supports this in any way, other than the fact Ork weapons sometimes work better in the hands of Orks (Obviously weapons designed and built by Orks and for Orks would work better when used by an Ork) and a theory from an imperial scientist called Lucas Anzion, who is not entirely reliable and exaggerates a lot. I have seen no where at all that even suggests they can just make dakka noises and the gun will work. The same thing with infinite ammo, just because it's rarely mentioned they have to reload doesn't mean they have infinite ammo - reloading and running out of ammo is pretty much only used for dramatic effect in novels.

If there is actual proof (other than the theory from Anzion) an exact quote for it would be helpful, but everytime i've asked about it no one has provided one. "Orks believe it so it's true" isn't an actual thing and has become such a common misconception lots of people seem to think it's been confirmed and actually happens.

That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

From Deathwatch:

-snip-Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartres boltgun in it's destructive capability.-snip-

And that's from deathwatch, which was specifically designed to be bolterporn. This has been stated multiple times in the fluff.

That is still cherrypicking, mind you.