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 Daba wrote:
By fluff

1. Shuriken Catapult
Last. Everything else.

Shuriken Catapult actually has a great range, like that of a bolter, fires at over 1000 RPM and each shuriken can penetrate several inches of armour. Not only that, but in the hands of the Eldar it's energy efficient and reliable. Basically, being on the receiving end would be akin to becoming red/green/grey mist.

One slight change, Gauss beats Shurikens

Anyways, as per my own personal ranking (going by fluff not TT).
1. Gauss Flayer
2. Shuriken Catapult and Splinter Rifle (both are relatively equal with their own charms. One is simply devastating whilst the other provides an always reliable chance no matter the foe of wounding)
3. Pulse Rifle
4. Bolter
5. Ork Shoota
6. Lasgun
7. Fleshborer (I only give a mark for Lasguns more simply because the simple reliability of the gun)

 TheCustomLime wrote:
1. Gauss Flayer: One of the best weapons out there. It can offer so much flexibility for an infantry small arm.
2. Pule Rifle: Strong, long ranged and accurate. The only thing holding it back are it's users.

I don't buy the 'flexible' thing. A gauss flayer, a bolter, and a shuriken catapult fare roughly the same against, say, a Carnifex or demon prince. The pulse rifle and the splinter rifle work better. Against many fliers, light vehicles, and rear vehicle armor (AV 10) a gauss flayer, a bolt gun, a shuriken catapult, and a shoota all perform equally well. A pulse rifle is better than any of them, able to penetrate the armor instead of glancing it and able to reach out and touch at a longer range. A pulse rifle works just as well as a gauss flayer against the front of a Rhino (not counting the superior range of the pulse rifle). Is that by the rules instead of fluff? Yes, but for every amazing 40k book written, there's one written by C.S. Goto.

Flexible could either be useful against tanks and mediocre against everything else, or better than average against everything but a tank. Against a monster, a transport, rear armor or line infantry, the pulse rifle is the superior choice.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
1. Gauss Flayer: One of the best weapons out there. It can offer so much flexibility for an infantry small arm.
2. Pule Rifle: Strong, long ranged and accurate. The only thing holding it back are it's users.

I don't buy the 'flexible' thing. A gauss flayer, a bolter, and a shuriken catapult fare roughly the same against, say, a Carnifex or demon prince. The pulse rifle and the splinter rifle work better. Against many fliers, light vehicles, and rear vehicle armor (AV 10) a gauss flayer, a bolt gun, a shuriken catapult, and a shoota all perform equally well. A pulse rifle is better than any of them, able to penetrate the armor instead of glancing it and able to reach out and touch at a longer range. A pulse rifle works just as well as a gauss flayer against the front of a Rhino (not counting the superior range of the pulse rifle). Is that by the rules instead of fluff? Yes, but for every amazing 40k book written, there's one written by C.S. Goto.

Flexible could either be useful against tanks and mediocre against everything else, or better than average against everything but a tank. Against a monster, a transport, rear armor or line infantry, the pulse rifle is the superior choice.

To be fair there is a divide between fluff and tabletop. It really varies for things but I'd argue that the gauss flayer, shuriken, and splinter rifle fluffwise all outstrip other standard arms (sense they are from Necrons and Eldar which are the most technologically advanced races out there). Besides that they all have their advantages and TT tries to make them different. Fluffwise the suriken has better range but tabletop ignores that for whatever reason. Besides that, looking at it from a TT standard, Eldar guns have a higher chance to penetrate armour than Tau, Necrons have a better chance of damaging AV12+ vehicles than any other standard gun, and Tau guns work best against higher toughness units. So what do we learn from this? Only one thing, all of them are better than Bolters

I was under the impression that Boltguns were reliable, though they have a tempermental machine spirit. (In fact, in Dark Heresy they are listed as 'Reliable' weapons, making them less likely to jam.)
On the subject of Astartes, Sororitas, and Guard boltguns: The difference is not in damage output, but venerability and size. A Space Marine Boltgun is much larger, holds generally more ammo, has more complex inner workings, and likely a greater history. A Sororitas boltgun has a somewhat smaller frame, but is otherwise similar. Guard Boltguns, being weilded by mortals without any strength-enhancing genes or armor, are tiny and therefore less reliable or complex, and holding less ammo.

Or so I recall.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was under the impression that Boltguns were reliable, though they have a tempermental machine spirit. (In fact, in Dark Heresy they are listed as 'Reliable' weapons, making them less likely to jam.)
On the subject of Astartes, Sororitas, and Guard boltguns: The difference is not in damage output, but venerability and size. A Space Marine Boltgun is much larger, holds generally more ammo, has more complex inner workings, and likely a greater history. A Sororitas boltgun has a somewhat smaller frame, but is otherwise similar. Guard Boltguns, being weilded by mortals without any strength-enhancing genes or armor, are tiny and therefore less reliable or complex, and holding less ammo.

Or so I recall.

A bolter fires a .75 caliber round. Anyone who has fired a .50 caliber weapon knows how utterly ridiculous it is that an ordinary person would be able to fire, accurately, a fully-automatic .75 caliber weapon.

Standard humans in 40k are supposed to be standard humans. Standard humans CAN'T use weapons that big. The damage output between a SM bolter and a smaller weapon would HAVE to be different. A 7.62 mm weapon is more likely to kill a person than a 5.56 mm weapon- that's why the US uses it. You can shoot at people trying to aid an injured friend, but no one leaves cover to save the dead.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was under the impression that Boltguns were reliable, though they have a tempermental machine spirit. (In fact, in Dark Heresy they are listed as 'Reliable' weapons, making them less likely to jam.)
On the subject of Astartes, Sororitas, and Guard boltguns: The difference is not in damage output, but venerability and size. A Space Marine Boltgun is much larger, holds generally more ammo, has more complex inner workings, and likely a greater history. A Sororitas boltgun has a somewhat smaller frame, but is otherwise similar. Guard Boltguns, being weilded by mortals without any strength-enhancing genes or armor, are tiny and therefore less reliable or complex, and holding less ammo.

Or so I recall.

A bolter fires a .75 caliber round. Anyone who has fired a .50 caliber weapon knows how utterly ridiculous it is that an ordinary person would be able to fire, accurately, a fully-automatic .75 caliber weapon.

Standard humans in 40k are supposed to be standard humans. Standard humans CAN'T use weapons that big. The damage output between a SM bolter and a smaller weapon would HAVE to be different. A 7.62 mm weapon is more likely to kill a person than a 5.56 mm weapon- that's why the US uses it. You can shoot at people trying to aid an injured friend, but no one leaves cover to save the dead.

Not nescessarily.Bolter weapons fire tiny missiles - The initial propulsion wouldn't have to be massive, each bolt propels itself once it leaves the barrel. No giant kick required.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was under the impression that Boltguns were reliable, though they have a tempermental machine spirit. (In fact, in Dark Heresy they are listed as 'Reliable' weapons, making them less likely to jam.)
On the subject of Astartes, Sororitas, and Guard boltguns: The difference is not in damage output, but venerability and size. A Space Marine Boltgun is much larger, holds generally more ammo, has more complex inner workings, and likely a greater history. A Sororitas boltgun has a somewhat smaller frame, but is otherwise similar. Guard Boltguns, being weilded by mortals without any strength-enhancing genes or armor, are tiny and therefore less reliable or complex, and holding less ammo.

Or so I recall.

A bolter fires a .75 caliber round. Anyone who has fired a .50 caliber weapon knows how utterly ridiculous it is that an ordinary person would be able to fire, accurately, a fully-automatic .75 caliber weapon.

Standard humans in 40k are supposed to be standard humans. Standard humans CAN'T use weapons that big. The damage output between a SM bolter and a smaller weapon would HAVE to be different. A 7.62 mm weapon is more likely to kill a person than a 5.56 mm weapon- that's why the US uses it. You can shoot at people trying to aid an injured friend, but no one leaves cover to save the dead.

To be fair 40k has never held much grasp on reality. It's a world of sci fantasy where daemons exist along with a rip-off of basically everything mashed together in some unwholesome whole. Look at any war's numbers and often you will notice there is no sense of scale. Notice every time they fight in close combat or ground fighting really means much of anything and one will notice it. Pay attention to where a beginner marine kills a daemon prince basically alone with just a dagger. 40k long threw away realism at the door and requires heavy suspension of disbelief to function

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
1. Gauss Flayer: One of the best weapons out there. It can offer so much flexibility for an infantry small arm.
2. Pule Rifle: Strong, long ranged and accurate. The only thing holding it back are it's users.

I don't buy the 'flexible' thing. A gauss flayer, a bolter, and a shuriken catapult fare roughly the same against, say, a Carnifex or demon prince. The pulse rifle and the splinter rifle work better. Against many fliers, light vehicles, and rear vehicle armor (AV 10) a gauss flayer, a bolt gun, a shuriken catapult, and a shoota all perform equally well. A pulse rifle is better than any of them, able to penetrate the armor instead of glancing it and able to reach out and touch at a longer range. A pulse rifle works just as well as a gauss flayer against the front of a Rhino (not counting the superior range of the pulse rifle). Is that by the rules instead of fluff? Yes, but for every amazing 40k book written, there's one written by C.S. Goto.

Flexible could either be useful against tanks and mediocre against everything else, or better than average against everything but a tank. Against a monster, a transport, rear armor or line infantry, the pulse rifle is the superior choice.

The reason I think the Gauss flayer is more flexible than a Pulse Rifle is that a unit equipped with them can be used as a poor man's AT squad against any vehicle. Pulse Rifles are really only better at one AV type that the flayer. I agree that against higher toughness targets the PR is somewhat better but it's not really all that much. The Pulse Rifle is a close second to be fair to you. If it reloaded quicker, had smaller and/or lighter clips it would be on par with the flayer.


EDIT: AFAIK, Bolters are described as having enough recoil to hurt a non-PA equipped human. Some sources of the SM wankery sort say that marine bolters are strong enough to rip off an unaugmented human's arm off. Pick your favorite interpretation and go with it. I personally see Bolters as having little recoil but being very unwieldy to normal humans.

I read somewhere that the 7,5 caliber of the Boltguns meant 7,5 centimeters, due to in-universe terms and whatnot. This is naturally insane, so I happily took that to heart as I want my 40k nice and crazy. Immersion in a setting where 2,8 m tall supersoldiers run around shooting things with 7,5 cm caliber automatic rocket launchers, where literally billions of soldiers swarm the battlefield, where kilometer-tall battle walkers fight in battles so large so they are not even the focal point... That sounds like a great setting to me, and of the hundreds of different 40k settings depicted in our many and highly contradictory sources, this is the interpretation I choose!

Boy, will I get hate for this.

Yeah, its 0.75 inches, 7,5 cm is the size of a Sherman canon...

I think its past insane at point, you'd have marines with about thirty shots worth of ammunition, or marine that get shot at and lose all their ammunition (or get torn to shred by all the bolts exploding)

Keep your petty logic and reasoning away from 40k.
This is the haven of insanity.
Sherman cannon? Sounds 'bout right.

There's a difference between enjoyable insanity and face-desk-smashing-inducing-insanity

Never underestimate the capabilities of handwavehammer 40K.

Besides, others have said crazier stuff already. Shots as hot as a star? Go ask a scientist what that would do to the continent you stand on, and those on it...

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A bolter fires a .75 caliber round. Anyone who has fired a .50 caliber weapon knows how utterly ridiculous it is that an ordinary person would be able to fire, accurately, a fully-automatic .75 caliber weapon.

Standard humans in 40k are supposed to be standard humans. Standard humans CAN'T use weapons that big. The damage output between a SM bolter and a smaller weapon would HAVE to be different. A 7.62 mm weapon is more likely to kill a person than a 5.56 mm weapon- that's why the US uses it. You can shoot at people trying to aid an injured friend, but no one leaves cover to save the dead.

The width of the bore has little to do with the amount of recoil a gun has. A .50 caliber pistol is quite practical for a moderately strong man to handle, while a .50 caliber rifle is way too powerful to fire without bracing, because they use totally different rounds; one fires a bullet that weights around 20g at a little over 400 m/s, the other fires a bullet that weighs about 45g at more than twice the speed. .50 BMG has about nine times the kinetic energy of .50 AE. A 12g shotgun has a much wider bore than a .50 machine gun (pretty close to .75, actually), but is a practical hand-held weapon because it fires at low velocity.

There are lots of different 7.62 mm rounds, some of them more powerful than 5.56 NATO, some of them less. The US didn't adopt the 5.56mm round because it was likely to wound people; their research showed that the location and number of bullet wounds was more important than the size of hole it made, so they adopted a round which let their soldiers carry a lot of ammunition and fire it both quickly and accurately.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Never underestimate the capabilities of handwavehammer 40K.

Besides, others have said crazier stuff already. Shots as hot as a star? Go ask a scientist what that would do to the continent you stand on, and those on it...

Not that much actually, contrary to popular myth the atmosphere of a planet is harder to set on fire than you might think.

A plasma shot travelling at extreme speed would not do it.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was under the impression that Boltguns were reliable, though they have a tempermental machine spirit. (In fact, in Dark Heresy they are listed as 'Reliable' weapons, making them less likely to jam.)
On the subject of Astartes, Sororitas, and Guard boltguns: The difference is not in damage output, but venerability and size. A Space Marine Boltgun is much larger, holds generally more ammo, has more complex inner workings, and likely a greater history. A Sororitas boltgun has a somewhat smaller frame, but is otherwise similar. Guard Boltguns, being weilded by mortals without any strength-enhancing genes or armor, are tiny and therefore less reliable or complex, and holding less ammo.

Or so I recall.

A bolter fires a .75 caliber round. Anyone who has fired a .50 caliber weapon knows how utterly ridiculous it is that an ordinary person would be able to fire, accurately, a fully-automatic .75 caliber weapon.

Standard humans in 40k are supposed to be standard humans. Standard humans CAN'T use weapons that big. The damage output between a SM bolter and a smaller weapon would HAVE to be different. A 7.62 mm weapon is more likely to kill a person than a 5.56 mm weapon- that's why the US uses it. You can shoot at people trying to aid an injured friend, but no one leaves cover to save the dead.

Not nescessarily.Bolter weapons fire tiny missiles - The initial propulsion wouldn't have to be massive, each bolt propels itself once it leaves the barrel. No giant kick required.

Not true. Remember Newton's Third Law, "To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction." Guns recoil... but the reason you don't see much recoil from a rocket is that the force is placed on the gas left behind the rocket- hot, dangerous gas. You don't want to be standing behind a bazooka when it fires. You can get around some of this by propelling the rocket out of the tube with a small gunpowder charge with the rocket then igniting after it has left the barrel to some extent. SMs wouldn't worry about exhaust because they're in power armor... but if it is propelled with a charge, it'll still have massive recoil- to the point of being dangerous.

'As hot as a star' is a pretty vague number anyway. There are plenty of stars with surface temperatures lower than a welding torch.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Never underestimate the capabilities of handwavehammer 40K.

Besides, others have said crazier stuff already. Shots as hot as a star? Go ask a scientist what that would do to the continent you stand on, and those on it...

We have achieved temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun before with no ill effects. I believe size and duration would have more to do with how well you boil a world than just sheer temperature. Remember, that heat has to travel through a lot of cool gas to reach someone a continent over.

If you like that 40k than more power to you. I think those figures are from writers who make up big numbers to sound cool but that is just me.

How would 30 tank shells fit in those mags, though?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Never underestimate the capabilities of handwavehammer 40K.

Besides, others have said crazier stuff already. Shots as hot as a star? Go ask a scientist what that would do to the continent you stand on, and those on it...

We have achieved temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun before with no ill effects. I believe size and duration would have more to do with how well you boil a world than just sheer temperature. Remember, that heat has to travel through a lot of cool gas to reach someone a continent over.

If you like that 40k than more power to you. I think those figures are from writers who make up big numbers to sound cool but that is just me.

How would 30 tank shells fit in those mags, though?

For example, lighting strikes are hotter than the surface of the sun, but because they last for such a small amount of time, nothing really happens.

I'll own up to starting the whole star discussion here. Sorry. I was making the rather dubious logical connection: "stars are made out of plasma (at least partially), the tau pulse rifle is a plasma weapon, therefore the tau pulse rifle is firing bits of stars at your enemies."

I was mainly doing that in response to the person claiming they weren't as awesome as a bolter.

And I'm not even going to comment on the feasibility of plasma weapons (other than they would not work in space because the plasma would disperse without some kind of electromagnetic conduit between you and the enemy ship). I'm pretty good with kinetic and laser weapons, but applied plasma weaponry is sufficiently advanced right now that I haven't done much research on it.

Just out of curiosity, where would the LRBT Battle Cannon fall? You know, the standard weapon for an Armoured Battle Group?

Overall power: 8
Anti infantry:9
Anti tank:8
Ammo (supply and clip size): 1
Range:10
Customization:1
Total:37

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, where would the LRBT Battle Cannon fall? You know, the standard weapon for an Armoured Battle Group?

As per Imperial Armor its a 120mm smoothbore gun, the same kind of weapon that's mounted on a M1A2 Abrams

The imperials don't have the shell technology that we do though, the best they can do is APCR for the normal battlecannon, or normal Frag-HE, no HEAT or APFSDS that I know of, they make up for it with super special space metal and space HE though.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, where would the LRBT Battle Cannon fall? You know, the standard weapon for an Armoured Battle Group?

As per Imperial Armor its a 120mm smoothbore gun, the same kind of weapon that's mounted on a M1A2 Abrams

The imperials don't have the shell technology that we do though, the best they can do is APCR for the normal battlecannon, or normal Frag-HE, no HEAT or APFSDS that I know of, they make up for it with super special space metal and space HE though.

The Gaunt book with the Chaos Baneblade has a reference to a dpecialist "auger" shell one of the Imoerial Russ commanders has, sufficient to penetrate the superheavy and leave a weak point. Also the Vanquisher has specialist AT shells with no blast potential, similar to a shaped charge or kinetic penetrator shell. They are around, just not that common.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, where would the LRBT Battle Cannon fall? You know, the standard weapon for an Armoured Battle Group?

As per Imperial Armor its a 120mm smoothbore gun, the same kind of weapon that's mounted on a M1A2 Abrams

The imperials don't have the shell technology that we do though, the best they can do is APCR for the normal battlecannon, or normal Frag-HE, no HEAT or APFSDS that I know of, they make up for it with super special space metal and space HE though.

The model must really have some pretty darn fethed up scale then.

Because I look at my Russ model here, and if I put a Guardsman next to it, it's bloody well bigger than 120 mm. More like 500 mm or something.

Hari, you must have tried putting ten Marines in a Rhino at some point, right? :p

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hari, you must have tried putting ten Marines in a Rhino at some point, right? :p

The issue with Space Marine transports is my biggest pet peeve in this game. Just make the things bigger already, it makes no sense. Sorry OCD moment.

I agree!

I remember being able to barely squeeze 3 non-upscaled Marines in a Rhino...

Eldar can also take a ranger long rifle as a basic weapon. It's probably better than a catapult overall. Can also take lasblasters but that's nothing to crow about

Kroot rifle is another solid troops choice basic weapon. Probably better than the bolter. But not as good as either the pulse rifle or carbine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the bits of stars comment could apply to any projectile weapon as well. Except catapults, I think the ammo is wraithbone

Shuriken weapons fire metal.