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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That is still cherrypicking, mind you.

Hardly, it's just the first ting I had to hand. Every single time a pulse weapon has been compared to a bolter the pulse weapon is shown to be stronger.

More sources, please.

One that you yourself even denounce is not really ideal.

It's pretty telling if Deathwatch, of all sources, rates the pulserifle higher than a bolter. That game introduced boltguns that could kill tanks more reliably than a lascannon or a missile launcher. There was, in fact, no real reason to take any other kind of weapon. The bolter was just that good.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I did a complete list. I put both the pulse rifle and pulse carbine because they are both the basic weapon (something tau alone has). I also took out availability beacuse they were either almmost all 1 of it was just an average person or all 5 if it was the group.
Gauss Flayer: 27
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 4
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 5
Stability: 5

Pulse Rifle: 26
Damage: 8
Range: 5
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Pulse Carbine: 26
Damage: 8
Range: 2
RoF: 4
Customization: 4
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Shuriken Catapult: 25
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 4
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Splinter Rifle: 25
Damage: 7
Range: 3
RoF: 3
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 5

Bolter: 21
Damage: 6
Range: 3
RoF: 2
Customization: 5
Ammunition: 2
Stability: 3

Shoota: 17-19
Damage: 6
Range: 2
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 3-5
Stability: 2

Lasgun: 18
Damage: 1
Range: 3
RoF: 3
Customization: 3
Ammunition: 4
Stability: 4

Fleshborer: 18
Damage: 5
Range: 1
RoF: 3
Customization: 2
Ammunition: 3
Stability: 4

Dude, did you just fething ignore everything I posted? Because there's a lot more quotes on bolters completely surpassing the feats for pulse rifles. There is NOTHING supporting pulse weapons or Eldar shurikens being stronger than Bolters in the damage compartment. A single excerpt from a RPG book doesn't mean anything when we have a fething library of bolter feats that go far beyond the shown abilities of pulse rifles. Which again, bolters can shred tank armor with a spray from the wielder and bolters typically reduce targets to puddles of gibs soaked in liquified flesh. Because I don't remember pulse rifles ever doing more than blowing limbs off.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
More sources, please.

One that you yourself even denounce is not really ideal.

You'll have to wait until I get home.
Until then, go find a source that says the bolt guns are stronger.
I have the codex with me and there is a rather of ambiguous statement that is in it, I'll post it once I find it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Dude, did you just fething ignore everything I posted? Because there's a lot more quotes on bolters completely surpassing the feats for pulse rifles. There is NOTHING supporting pulse weapons or Eldar shurikens being stronger than Bolters in the damage compartment. A single excerpt from a RPG book doesn't mean anything when we have a fething library of bolter feats that go far beyond the shown abilities of pulse rifles. Which again, bolters can shred tank armor with a spray from the wielder and bolters typically reduce targets to puddles of gibs soaked in liquified flesh. Because I don't remember pulse rifles ever doing more than blowing limbs off.

I wasn't aware you posted anything, I'll go look. I put the suriken weapons higher because of it's anti-personel powers (mini-rending).
And could you please tone down the language, try to remember rule #1.

Gaunt got shot point-blank in the heart by a bolt pistol and lived.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You'll have to wait until I get home.
Until then, go find a source that says the bolt guns are stronger.
I have the codex with me and there is a rather of ambiguous statement that is in it, I'll post it once I find it.

That's one source, and FFG isn't too great on their fluff either, for example completely forgetting about Schrodinger Slaanesh in Tome of Excess. I've got five just posted that say otherwise, and I can bring up more. And more. And more. And more. Bolters have superior feats to pulse weapons, that's all that matters, as that's actual use of them in the field. Also, as I remember, pulse rifles aren't even effective at penetrating power armor reliably.

 Psienesis wrote:
Gaunt got shot point-blank in the heart by a bolt pistol and lived.

What do you expect of lasgun porn?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You'll have to wait until I get home.
Until then, go find a source that says the bolt guns are stronger.
I have the codex with me and there is a rather of ambiguous statement that is in it, I'll post it once I find it.

That's one source, and FFG isn't too great on their fluff either, for example completely forgetting about Schrodinger Slaanesh in Tome of Excess. I've got five just posted that say otherwise, and I can bring up more. And more. And more. And more. Bolters have superior feats to pulse weapons, that's all that matters, as that's actual use of them in the field. Also, as I remember, pulse rifles aren't even effective at penetrating power armor reliably.

A few points:
1. Read my whole post, I have other sources, I'm just not at home so I can't post them
2. No direct comparisons of bolters to pulse rifles so it doesn't apply
3. According to GW everything is canon so this is
4. Nothing short of a plasma gun is really effective at penetrating PA outside of the HH books when all bolters are suddenly AP3.

 Psienesis wrote:
Gaunt got shot point-blank in the heart by a bolt pistol and lived.

Isn't Gaunt a freak seven foot tall mutant abhuman from an abnormal world?

No? He's tall and thin, as his name suggests, but not abnormally so. He's listed as slightly over 2 meters tall, which makes him like 6'10".

Sure, that's tall, but well within human standards.

 Psienesis wrote:
No? He's tall and thin, as his name suggests, but not abnormally so. He's listed as slightly over 2 meters tall, which makes him like 6'10".

Sure, that's tall, but well within human standards.

I remember a previous threat putting him at 2.2 meters. That's over seven feet, he's bloody huge for a man, and as a Commissar, probably well built. Plus it's likely the bolt just over-penetrated due to the close range.

Actually, the bolt glanced off a metal flower pinned to his lapel and prematurely detonated outside his body.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, the bolt glanced off a metal flower pinned to his lapel and prematurely detonated outside his body.

Yep.

So much for the armor-penetrating capability of bolter rounds. It hit his fancy medal and exploded.

Still threw fragmentation into his chest, but he survived.

wyzilla wrote:

Dude, did you just fething ignore everything I posted? Because there's a lot more quotes on bolters completely surpassing the feats for pulse rifles. There is NOTHING supporting pulse weapons or Eldar shurikens being stronger than Bolters in the damage compartment. A single excerpt from a RPG book doesn't mean anything when we have a fething library of bolter feats that go far beyond the shown abilities of pulse rifles. Which again, bolters can shred tank armor with a spray from the wielder and bolters typically reduce targets to puddles of gibs soaked in liquified flesh. Because I don't remember pulse rifles ever doing more than blowing limbs off.

There are more quotes about bolters than pulse weapons because there are many more books about marines than there are about Tau and as marines are the golden boys, supposedky able to take on anything, they get. Lot more plot armour and magical penetrating bullets than anyone else. For The Emperor references the results of pulse carbine fire as equivalent to plasma weapons fire with an experienced Commissar worried about insurgents with a healthy stock of plasma pistols. If anyone has Fire Warrior to hand, I'm sure it is filled with every pulse shot explodifying the enemy ranks.

The fluff is malleable, nowhere more so than In the BL novels.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

From Deathwatch:

-snip-Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartres boltgun in it's destructive capability.-snip-

And that's from deathwatch, which was specifically designed to be bolterporn. This has been stated multiple times in the fluff.

Which does not give it more power than a gauss flayer. Pulse weapons are not even close to gauss weapons in the fluff. The gauss flayer can destroy even a Land Raider, something in which the pulse rifle is sadly lacking. In the fluff, bolters are also better at penetrating armour, or at least ceramite armour which is (assuming it is based on ceramic, which is likely) supposed to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to plasma-based weapons.
Last but not least, you can't rate a weapon without considering its wielder. Even the weakest weapon becomes incredibly powerful in the hands of a great warrior. A discussion of weapons not taking that into consideration is a discussion without point, especially since we are talking about fictional space magic weapons here.
Also, Deathwatch was not designed to be 'bolterporn'. 'Bolterporn' refers to those silly Black Library novels in which 10 Space Marines conquer an entire world and where there is no depth of plot, just battle.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

From Deathwatch:

-snip-Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartres boltgun in it's destructive capability.-snip-

And that's from deathwatch, which was specifically designed to be bolterporn. This has been stated multiple times in the fluff.

Which does not give it more power than a gauss flayer. Pulse weapons are not even close to gauss weapons in the fluff. The gauss flayer can destroy even a Land Raider, something in which the pulse rifle is sadly lacking. In the fluff, bolters are also better at penetrating armour, or at least ceramite armour which is (assuming it is based on ceramic, which is likely) supposed to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to plasma-based weapons.
Last but not least, you can't rate a weapon without considering its wielder. Even the weakest weapon becomes incredibly powerful in the hands of a great warrior. A discussion of weapons not taking that into consideration is a discussion without point, especially since we are talking about fictional space magic weapons here.
Also, Deathwatch was not designed to be 'bolterporn'. 'Bolterporn' refers to those silly Black Library novels in which 10 Space Marines conquer an entire world and where there is no depth of plot, just battle.

That's why the gauss flayer is #1. And this is just about the actual weapon itself, not the wielder. I call it bolterporn because it vastly overstates, while not necessarily marines, but everything they have. Their boltgun does 2d10+5 damage which is stronger than a DH plasma gun.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

From Deathwatch:

-snip-Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartres boltgun in it's destructive capability.-snip-

And that's from deathwatch, which was specifically designed to be bolterporn. This has been stated multiple times in the fluff.

Which does not give it more power than a gauss flayer. Pulse weapons are not even close to gauss weapons in the fluff. The gauss flayer can destroy even a Land Raider, something in which the pulse rifle is sadly lacking. In the fluff, bolters are also better at penetrating armour, or at least ceramite armour which is (assuming it is based on ceramic, which is likely) supposed to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to plasma-based weapons.
Last but not least, you can't rate a weapon without considering its wielder. Even the weakest weapon becomes incredibly powerful in the hands of a great warrior. A discussion of weapons not taking that into consideration is a discussion without point, especially since we are talking about fictional space magic weapons here.
Also, Deathwatch was not designed to be 'bolterporn'. 'Bolterporn' refers to those silly Black Library novels in which 10 Space Marines conquer an entire world and where there is no depth of plot, just battle.

That's why the gauss flayer is #1. And this is just about the actual weapon itself, not the wielder. I call it bolterporn because it vastly overstates, while not necessarily marines, but everything they have. Their boltgun does 2d10+5 damage which is stronger than a DH plasma gun.

Than what is use of such discussion? A weapon can't be seperate from its wielder. On its own, weapon has no strenght; it does nothing.
And you still rated the pulse rifle above the gauss flayer in your 'damage' category. That is horribly incorrect. The gauss flayer should score at least a 10 in damage, as it peels every molecule from your body. You can't possibly do more damage than that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Pulse Rifles would somehow be so extremely strong is, from what I have seen, something purely based on game mechanics.

They are repeatedly stated as strong, for sure, but I have never seen it be said to have more firepower than gauss flayers or bolters.

From Deathwatch:

-snip-Even the Fire Caste's standard issue weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing even the Adeptus Astartres boltgun in it's destructive capability.-snip-

And that's from deathwatch, which was specifically designed to be bolterporn. This has been stated multiple times in the fluff.

Which does not give it more power than a gauss flayer. Pulse weapons are not even close to gauss weapons in the fluff. The gauss flayer can destroy even a Land Raider, something in which the pulse rifle is sadly lacking. In the fluff, bolters are also better at penetrating armour, or at least ceramite armour which is (assuming it is based on ceramic, which is likely) supposed to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to plasma-based weapons.
Last but not least, you can't rate a weapon without considering its wielder. Even the weakest weapon becomes incredibly powerful in the hands of a great warrior. A discussion of weapons not taking that into consideration is a discussion without point, especially since we are talking about fictional space magic weapons here.

Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

Also, if we are to consider the person wielding it then shouldn't we also consider the support available to the wielder? For all of a space marines training and genetics, a fire warrior can be more accurate over a longer range thanks to the support of markerlights to aid their targeting and the fact that the Pulse Rifle has a longer range. So really, once you get into the "it depends on the person wielding it" argument you logically have to go on to the "it depends on what army they're in" argument and it all just spirals.

Iron_Captain:
This is about mechanics. You can just imagine that all these weapons are being shot by the same person.
I din't know much about gauss weapons so I just based them off the game, you have to take that assessment with a grain of salt.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

From real life. Judging from its name, ceramite is based on ceramic. Ceramic is highly resistant to plasma.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Also, if we are to consider the person wielding it then shouldn't we also consider the support available to the wielder? For all of a space marines training and genetics, a fire warrior can be more accurate over a longer range thanks to the support of markerlights to aid their targeting and the fact that the Pulse Rifle has a longer range. So really, once you get into the "it depends on the person wielding it" argument you logically have to go on to the "it depends on what army they're in" argument and it all just spirals.

It wouldn't spiral anymore than this discussion already does
The point I am trying to make is that you can't compare the effectiveness of a weapon without taking into consideration all kinds of factors. The humble lasgun is actually one of the most effective weapons in 40k, and therefore one of the most powerful.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Iron_Captain:
This is about mechanics. You can just imagine that all these weapons are being shot by the same person.
I din't know much about gauss weapons so I just based them off the game, you have to take that assessment with a grain of salt.

Of course we could do that, but what point does it have? That is the question I am asking. Debating fictional weapons is already pretty pointless to begin with (though fun ) but assuming such circumstances is even more pointless, since the strenght and effectiveness of a weapon is determined by much more details than you take into consideration and much more than just the weapon itself. This skews the ratings in favour of certain weapons.
In the end, I think each race uses the weapon it is most effective with. The Orks are be much more effective with shootas than with a pulse rifles, and the IG is more effective with lasguns than with gauss flayers.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

From real life. Judging from its name, ceramite is based on ceramic. Ceramic is highly resistant to plasma.

Than why are plasma weapons so effective against them?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

From real life. Judging from its name, ceramite is based on ceramic. Ceramic is highly resistant to plasma.

Right. Only, you're:

A) Applying logic (that new-fangled real life logic too, the ultimate heresy ) to 40K

B) Overlooking the fluff/game mechanics that both specifically state otherwise.

Basically, GW can't science right, never have done. So ceramic resistance to plasma IRL is actually completely moot in 40K.

Although I do agree that the wielder does make a difference - a gauss rifle, according to the 3rd ED Necron codex, is actually physically impossible to fire. As in, it should fuse itself together upon pulling the trigger, according to the Imperium at any rate. This is on the same page that shows a Destroyer blasting through a Land Raider.

Terminator armor is like a foot thick of ceramite, and is popped by plasma cannons on the reg. I don't think ceramite is as plas-resistant as you seem to think it is.

 liquidjoshi wrote:


A) Applying logic (that new-fangled real life logic too, the ultimate heresy ) to 40K

You can't say that the Pulse Rifle would be a strong weapon, then, just because it merely is stated as one.

That would be applying logic!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

From real life. Judging from its name, ceramite is based on ceramic. Ceramic is highly resistant to plasma.

Than why are plasma weapons so effective against them?

IOM plasma weapons range around twenty million degrees. I.E., the temperature of the sun- they literally throw stellar matter at their targets. Ceramite however is some of the best heat protection there is, second only to admantanium, which is why lasguns are nigh useless against it and prevent a plasma gun shot that was a clean miss from scorching your face off.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:


A) Applying logic (that new-fangled real life logic too, the ultimate heresy ) to 40K

You can't say that the Pulse Rifle would be a strong weapon, then, just because it merely is stated as one.

That would be applying logic!

Full points for effort, gonna have to mark you down on execution though.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Where did you get that ceramite is resistant to plasma weapons? Because that seems off, considering that plasma guns are routinely described as melting straight through power armour and terminator armour.

From real life. Judging from its name, ceramite is based on ceramic. Ceramic is highly resistant to plasma.

Than why are plasma weapons so effective against them?

IOM plasma weapons range around twenty million degrees. I.E., the temperature of the sun- they literally throw stellar matter at their targets. Ceramite however is some of the best heat protection there is, second only to admantanium, which is why lasguns are nigh useless against it and prevent a plasma gun shot that was a clean miss from scorching your face off.

Not quite. Lasguns function with a combination of thermal energy and kinetic energy. It's half heat, half bullet-punchy. Ceramite is really tough, so it basically ignores the bullet-punchy half of the equation, and the thermal half is not enough to make up for it.

Then you have the multi-las and the lascannon, both of which punch through ceramite armor as if it were tissue paper.

The multilaser punches through Ceramite?

I have never seen this be implied.

In comparative stats, the Astartes bolt-gun vs the Tau Pulse-rifle, from Deathwatch, which is the bolter-porniest of FFG's bolter-porn games:

The Tau Pulse Rifle has a 150m range (optimal, max range is 600m), can fire 1, 2 or 4 shots a round (semi-automatic or burst fire), and does 2d10+2 Energy-type damage, with a Penetration value of 4. It has the Gyro-Stabilized special quality, which reduces the penalties for long-range shots. Its weight is not given, though it is noted to carry a magazine of 36 rounds.

The Astartes Godwyn-Pattern Boltgun has a 100m range (optimal, 400m maximum), and can fire 1, 2 or 4 shots per round (semi-automatic and burst-fire capable). It deals 2d10+5 Explosive-type damage (when Critical Wounds are inflicted, Explosive criticals become lethal faster than other damage types). It has a Penetration value of 5, and holds 28 rounds in its magazine. It has the Tearing quality, which means an extra d10 is rolled for damage, and the lowest result discarded. It weighs 18kg.

Astartes Power Armor has 10 Armor Points on the Torso, and 8 on every other location. This means that the Tau Pulse Rifle treats all of the Space Marine's limbs and head at 1/2 its AP (being Pen 4), and reduces the AP of the torso by 4.

The Tau's basic power armor, worn by the Fire Warriors, has 6 AP in all locations (being basically powered carapace), thus providing 1 AP after the armor-penetrating effect of an Astartes bolt-gun is taken into effect.

Given the differences in the weapons, it's kind of a wash to say which is better. While the Astartes bolt-gun is more damaging, the Pulse Rifle has half again its maximum range, and is equipped to maximize accuracy when firing at that range, and almost a third again as much staying power. Both weapons make a mockery of the standard armor of one another, significantly reducing their effectiveness.

The Only War multi-las has an optimal range of 150 meters (600m maximum), fires 5 shots per Round (fully automatic only), and deals 2d10+10 Energy-type damage per hit. It has an armor Penetration rating of 2 and a powerpack of 100 total shots, offering 20 Combat Rounds of sustained fire.

With the average damage roll of this weapon being 23 ((5.5 x2)+10+2), and Space Marine PA offering 10 AP in its strongest point (12 total, once the Black Carapace's armor bonus of 2 is taken into account, which is then effectively ignored because of the Pen 2 of the multi-las), a single shot from a multi-las deals 13 points of damage to the Space Marine. Now, this is where the game mechanics get wonky, because the Space Marine probably ignores 10 or 12 of those points of damage due to his Unnatural Toughness, and so ends up taking only 1 or 3 points of damage per hit.

Now, with the way the game's mechanics work, in all cases here, the Tau or the Space Marine can make a Dodge Test to avoid incoming fire. Assuming all weapons involved here are firing at their maximum rates, on average, the Space Marine will take 1 hit from the Pulse Rifle, or 1 hit from a bolter, or 2 hits from the multi-las. We're also assuming, for illustrative purposes, that no 10s are rolled on any of these damage tests, because those can result in "Righteous Furies" which means that you re-roll the damage test and add it to the original, and keep re-rolling it until you don't roll a 10. Any one of these weapons has the capability for a lucky shot to drop a Space Marine in a single Round of combat.