Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wat.

Bolters have a range well over two kilometers, not a hundred meters optimal.

No, they don't. Space Marines are heavy infantry shock troops. Most of their operations are fairly short-range engagements, and the bolter itself is built as a carbine or a sub-machinegun, with no buttstock to speak of and a short, stubby barrel.

I have no idea where this idea that bolters have long range comes from.

THey should have long range. Their weapon type should have long range. But every bolter ever only shoots in standard kalashnikov range.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, they don't. Space Marines are heavy infantry shock troops. Most of their operations are fairly short-range engagements, and the bolter itself is built as a carbine or a sub-machinegun, with no buttstock to speak of and a short, stubby barrel.

Yes they do. We know that bolters can accurately fire well over two kilometers with extreme precision- which makes sense considering the rounds they use. That and with the battlefields of W40K, and the Astartes being shock troopers, them being equipped with incredibly long ranged weapons makes sense, unless you seem to have forgotten what a Hive City is like. They need to be equipped with an incredibly long ranged rifle for the job they fulfill, it's not uncommon for them to fight at extreme range to snipe enemies from a distance, which is a handy way of neutralizing orks or dropping sentries.

But an FFG rulebook makes a poor source of stats, considering much of it also revolves specifically around gameplay. Last thing the GM wants is his Kill Team simply camping at the far edge of the map and popping all the enemies as they're sighted.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No, they don't. Space Marines are heavy infantry shock troops. Most of their operations are fairly short-range engagements, and the bolter itself is built as a carbine or a sub-machinegun, with no buttstock to speak of and a short, stubby barrel.

Yes they do. We know that bolters can accurately fire well over two kilometers with extreme precision- which makes sense considering the rounds they use. That and with the battlefields of W40K, and the Astartes being shock troopers, them being equipped with incredibly long ranged weapons makes sense, unless you seem to have forgotten what a Hive City is like. They need to be equipped with an incredibly long ranged rifle for the job they fulfill, it's not uncommon for them to fight at extreme range to snipe enemies from a distance, which is a handy way of neutralizing orks or dropping sentries.

But an FFG rulebook makes a poor source of stats, considering much of it also revolves specifically around gameplay. Last thing the GM wants is his Kill Team simply camping at the far edge of the map and popping all the enemies as they're sighted.

Do you have a source for this?

 Sasori wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No, they don't. Space Marines are heavy infantry shock troops. Most of their operations are fairly short-range engagements, and the bolter itself is built as a carbine or a sub-machinegun, with no buttstock to speak of and a short, stubby barrel.

Yes they do. We know that bolters can accurately fire well over two kilometers with extreme precision- which makes sense considering the rounds they use. That and with the battlefields of W40K, and the Astartes being shock troopers, them being equipped with incredibly long ranged weapons makes sense, unless you seem to have forgotten what a Hive City is like. They need to be equipped with an incredibly long ranged rifle for the job they fulfill, it's not uncommon for them to fight at extreme range to snipe enemies from a distance, which is a handy way of neutralizing orks or dropping sentries.

But an FFG rulebook makes a poor source of stats, considering much of it also revolves specifically around gameplay. Last thing the GM wants is his Kill Team simply camping at the far edge of the map and popping all the enemies as they're sighted.

Do you have a source for this?

Siege of Castellax especially comes to mind, an Iron Warrior explicitly fires off a shot at 2.1+ kilomets (IIRC, 2.5) at an enemy sniper behind cover. He popped the shot off at the proper angle to bounce under the sniper's cover and into her pelvis/torso. From over two kilometers away. As for the nature of hive cities-



It's all about altitude. You'll need a weapon capable of firing at extreme range with incredible accuracy due to the threat of nested enemies either far above you or at a great angle ahead of you. A standard issue weapon to every soldier capable of eradicating such threats themselves would be a needed boon, and bolters fill that job well. Then there's already how bolts themselves have something similar to a computer chip inside of them, which is the only way they could possibly function with the mass reactive and gyrojet second stage feature. It's quite possible it might not even be the bolter itself, but the bolt round actually homing in on the target by precisely firing the gyrojets to stabilize and steer the round.



Plus, bolters already link up directly the asupex of a space marine (and IIRC, sister as well_ wielding the gun, which makes it more likely that they have some sort of digital program increasing accuracy.Be it hardware or software. There's no reason at all why bolters would have such a limited range. Plus we already know they're used as long ranged sniper rifles.

That's intreasting, about the Siege of Castellax.

The question is, though, is this an outlier? While I have not read a lot of bolter porn, a 2 KM distance seems a bit ludicrous and out of place, for even 40k.

It is an outlier, yes.

To be fair, a 2 km+ range is not entirely implausible.

Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

And you really have to think just how far 2km really is. That'd 2000m. That range would be rediculus to hit anything at, much less an enemy behind cover. As with most exessive exadurations in the fluff I'm going to politely ignore it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

But it is fired by a magical superhuman in a futuristic fantasy setting. I'd say it is perfectly plausible

Because a super human does not make bullets fly further (unless they are being thrown )

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because a super human does not make bullets fly further (unless they are being thrown )

No, but he can have superhuman super aim which allows him to shoot enemies at 2km without scope, bipod and all that non-superhuman nonsense

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because a super human does not make bullets fly further (unless they are being thrown )

No, but he can have superhuman super aim which allows him to shoot enemies at 2km without scope, bipod and all that non-superhuman nonsense

Assuming the weapon's maximum range is 2km.

A Space Marine decked out in powered armor would be able to resist recoil and maintain better stability though. That should be similar to a bipod.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

But it is fired by a magical superhuman in a futuristic fantasy setting. I'd say it is perfectly plausible

Magical superhuman doesn't stop gravity working or the wind blowing or the planet from spinning

No, but the magical superhuman's magical supergun does!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, but the magical superhuman's magical supergun does!

Or targetters and autosenses, as we like to think of them in a very real sense...

As well as the gun itself, which is based on technology we do not fully understand.

Such as due to the materials being used.

There have been quite a few threads recently pointing out that all the component parts of a bolter round exist now. They just haven't been put together because a bolt round is a really inefficient way of doing what it does

Given the relative mechanical simplicity of guns, I think the only thing that isn't well documented for bolters is how they work in space. The rounds themselves have all the oxidiser they need, is more about how they don't warp when subject to sunlight out of atmosphere.

Bolters would probebly be better if there was no gyro-jet and just more explosives. They obbiously have cases so that propelant woulf fire the bolt.

Bullets.. um, it was a little while ago, but someone did the maths and... assuming it doesn't hit anything, a bullet will circumnavigate the earth before it runs out of kinetic energy. Maximum ranges are maximum accurate ranges. Bullets don't just hit a certain distance then drop to the ground.

Yeah, but they are still accelerating twords the earth at aproximetly 9.81 m/s^2.


Also, that 2km should be considered as an extreme outlyer, like Bill Gates in a room full of homeless people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:





Does anybody have the specs on how fast the bolt travels? I could figue out how far it would be able to shoot on earth assuming that the SM is firing straight forward.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

Astartes wear power armor capable of locking itself, along with built-in targeting computers (the asupex) that links up wirelessly with the Astartes' bolter to feed data to the helm. It's not outlandish at all, just people forgetting that power armor is actually POWER armor and it pretty much makes the wearer a cyborg and lets them interface with their own gear. Although it should also be noted that IIRC, As for the solid fuel, don't they use promethium?

And you can't claim something is an outlier unless you gather and read every W40K book and run a statistical analysis of their contents to find the mean. Anything else is simply a false argument.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

Astartes wear power armor capable of locking itself, along with built-in targeting computers (the asupex) that links up wirelessly with the Astartes' bolter to feed data to the helm. It's not outlandish at all, just people forgetting that power armor is actually POWER armor and it pretty much makes the wearer a cyborg and lets them interface with their own gear. Although it should also be noted that IIRC, As for the solid fuel, don't they use promethium?

And you can't claim something is an outlier unless you gather and read every W40K book and run a statistical analysis of their contents to find the mean. Anything else is simply a false argument.

It is the outlier from known information. You only need an un-biased random grouping to find outliers.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, the longest confirmed kill using current weapons is 2,475m (which was 1km beyond the weapons effective firing range). Since most boltguns lack a bipod, effective stock and long barrel, such a shot would be very difficult.

Over that kind of distance the amount of effects you have to take into account make hitting the target with your first shot basically impossible. You have wind (which can vary as the round travels over such a large distance), gravity and the Coriolis effect.

Gyrojets would only be able to correct it so much due to limited fuel reserves. Weapons which have been developed which used rocket propellant to accelerate a round only had a burn time of 0.1 seconds. Also the bolt uses solid fuel which means that once it ignites it keeps burning until it is out of fuel. So you can't turn off or turn down that rocket. It has one setting, go.

Astartes wear power armor capable of locking itself, along with built-in targeting computers (the asupex) that links up wirelessly with the Astartes' bolter to feed data to the helm. It's not outlandish at all, just people forgetting that power armor is actually POWER armor and it pretty much makes the wearer a cyborg and lets them interface with their own gear. Although it should also be noted that IIRC, As for the solid fuel, don't they use promethium?

And you can't claim something is an outlier unless you gather and read every W40K book and run a statistical analysis of their contents to find the mean. Anything else is simply a false argument.

It is the outlier from known information. You only need an un-biased random grouping to find outliers.

Nope, not with the method of the Black Library which is completely randomized and constantly changing themes and tropes as time goes on- plus polls that fail to test the entire group are always the unreliable ones subject to constant error and manipulation. But you can't claim "it's an outlier!' without actually backing that up.

From my known information it is an outlier. As new information is descovered it might hot be.

Also, whoever had the info about thr 2km, can you quote that for me? It sound interesting.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Bullets.. um, it was a little while ago, but someone did the maths and... assuming it doesn't hit anything, a bullet will circumnavigate the earth before it runs out of kinetic energy. Maximum ranges are maximum accurate ranges. Bullets don't just hit a certain distance then drop to the ground.

Did he factor in wind resistance and gravitational pull? That tends to make the bullet drop off, I believe.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Bullets.. um, it was a little while ago, but someone did the maths and... assuming it doesn't hit anything, a bullet will circumnavigate the earth before it runs out of kinetic energy. Maximum ranges are maximum accurate ranges. Bullets don't just hit a certain distance then drop to the ground.

Did he factor in wind resistance and gravitational pull? That tends to make the bullet drop off, I believe.

Apparently not. Ignoring air resistance, objects accelerate downward at 9.81m/s^2

Interestingly, when the bullet is fast enough to make the ground 'lower' faster than it falls towards the ground (probably need faster than Railgun speed for that though...), it has effectively reached low orbit, at least until it is slowed down by air resistance.