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Okay guys you do all realise your arguinh in circles right you have all said the same thing like 6 times round or more. I think it time to agree to disagree and wait for an offcial FAQ and play it how you play it with friends and ask TO how they want it played

Well I've said the same thing twice now and the projoining side have refused to answer the question hence why they are going in circles because they know their rule interpretation is incorrect but don't want to give up the fight.

Aha, so you argue that as the rule prevents an IC from joining a vehicle, but there is nothing about a unit joining a vehicle, then it must be possible.

I don't agree with that as that point of view is also not supported by the rules. I argue that the infantry do not have permission to be joined with a vehicle. There is no permission to do that. Also Codex AM has examples to support my stance.

I suspect GW will correct the FAQ soon.

It does not become a Chariot unit, just the same as when an Infantry IC joins a unit it doesn't change.

And yes, this does break a lot of the Chariot rules.

Still you could just allocate normally and when you reach the Chariot model in the allocation step switch to the Chariot rules until it is dead...

But that's HIWPI of course.

Naw wrote:
Aha, so you argue that as the rule prevents an IC from joining a vehicle, but there is nothing about a unit joining a vehicle, then it must be possible.

I don't agree with that as that point of view is also not supported by the rules. I argue that the infantry do not have permission to be joined with a vehicle. There is no permission to do that. Also Codex AM has examples to support my stance.

I suspect GW will correct the FAQ soon.

Yes, I do argue that. As that is how rules work.

I have permission as an IC to join a unit. I am therefore allowed to join, barring the restrictions. Given there is no "unless the IC is a vehicle" restriction, I can still join. As , again, that would be how rules work.

Cite your examples. Cite your rules. You have, again, failed to do anything but cite an opinion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Naw wrote:
Aha, so you argue that as the rule prevents an IC from joining a vehicle, but there is nothing about a unit joining a vehicle, then it must be possible.

I don't agree with that as that point of view is also not supported by the rules. I argue that the infantry do not have permission to be joined with a vehicle. There is no permission to do that. Also Codex AM has examples to support my stance.

I suspect GW will correct the FAQ soon.

Yes, I do argue that. As that is how rules work.

I have permission as an IC to join a unit. I am therefore allowed to join, barring the restrictions. Given there is no "unless the IC is a vehicle" restriction, I can still join. As , again, that would be how rules work.

Cite your examples. Cite your rules. You have, again, failed to do anything but cite an opinion.

It is obviously a mistake by GW as otherwise there would be way too many problems with that interpretation. No other chariot works this way and ICs are specifically forbidden from joining vehicles. To me this falls into the same category as FMC's without Smash and Relentless.

So explain away how you would sort out e.g. the wound/damage allocation, wargear issues etc.

Have I pissed in your morning cereal or why are you always hostile in your messages? Maybe you should take a step back, have a deep breath and come to a realization that this is only a game and these are not life and death discussions.

Ah, so when you say it isn't supported by the rules, that was a lie?

I'm just asking you to follow the tenets, to whit backing up your assertions with something other than a vague claim. So no, it's not hostile to ask you to follow the rules of the forum, and in a debate it isn't hostile to ask the other side to cite their rules. Given you asked me to cite them, and i complied, it is more than a tad hypocritical of you to fail to do so yourself when asked.

So, when you said it wasn't supported by the rules, I'd that your opinion, or do you have a rules based argument to make? If the former please make it explicit that it is solely your opinion, as that way people won't mistakenly try to debate the rules with you.

I did explain why I think it is not supported by the rules, you can then choose not to agree with me. Does it make my interpretation less truthful than yours?

I did not ask you to cite anything, you just felt you needed to. I did not have the rules available, but I also could not remember that permission, because it is not there.

So to recap why I interpret that a chariot is not allowed to join a unit of e.g. infantry:
1) You couldn't join another vehicle even of the same type, including two IC CCB's
2) Units are not allowed to join in the first place and having them be joined to a vehicle is not supported by the rules

So explain away these points. Just because something is not specifically forbidden does not mean that you have a permission to do so.

I have fulfilled my burden.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I notice everyone on the pro joining side has avoided this question because they know what they are arguing is false. Please answer this question or concede. Can you tell me which of the following two options is true in your interpretation: 

1) The Chariot and unit once joined are not a chariot unit and thus assigning hits does not come into effect and the unit becomes immortal as you just assign wounds to the chariot and it doesn't care. 

2) The Chariot and unit are a Chariot unit and thus all models gave all the USRs for chariots including HoW etc. Also should an infantry man be at the front of the unit it becomes immortal as assigning hits works and you simply assign all hits to his non-existent chariot. 

Which of those 2 statements is true?

3) The Chariot and unit are a chariot unit (and an infantry unit), but only the chariot model has unit type "chariot", and therefore it must take the hits regardless of its placement in the unit.

Your statement number 2 is insane. Would you make an entire unit have jump packs just because a jump pack IC joins it? No.
Similarly, (in response to statement 1) would you not allow said Jump IC to move 12", because it is the only model that can do so?

This is remarkably similar to mixed unit type units from last edition.

 Shandara wrote:
It does not become a Chariot unit, just the same as when an Infantry IC joins a unit it doesn't change.

And yes, this does break a lot of the Chariot rules.

Still you could just allocate normally and when you reach the Chariot model in the allocation step switch to the Chariot rules until it is dead...

But that's HIWPI of course.

So I put the chariot at the front of the unit you hit and wound on majority toughness and the chariot takes wounds until it dies which being a vehicle it never does. So your interpretation is that you have an immortal unit correct?

No, I was wrong, you can't allocate normally, thank you for kindly point it out.. I can't find the sentence where I say it becomes immortal though, must've misplaced it.

Basically:
You'd have to deal with each hit separately, discounting either Chariot or the rest of the unit as needed to deal with the divide between AV and Toughness, until either the Chariot or the rest of the unit is gone.

Not unworkable, but probably cumbersome for high volume shooting.

katana100 wrote:
Okay guys you do all realise your arguinh in circles right you have all said the same thing like 6 times round or more. I think it time to agree to disagree and wait for an offcial FAQ and play it how you play it with friends and ask TO how they want it played

I'm not sure we are arguing in circles....The anti joining group has quoted numerous BRB references that show that RAW the Chariot can't join anything. We're currently waiting for a coherent RAW response.

In the meantime, the thread has gone off on RAI and another tangent

Sooooo.....not sure if we will ever get back to that.

Can we state that RAW applies and the CCB cannot join units now?

No you have to allocate normally unless you have rules that change that. Please tell me what rules you're suggesting using other than the normal wound pool allocation. Page and paragraph is enough.

If we use normal allocation you allocate wounds to the chariot until it dies. As it has no wounds being a vehicle it will never die no matter what you shoot it with. Hence making the unit immortal.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No you have to allocate normally unless you have rules that change that. Please tell me what rules you're suggesting using other than the normal wound pool allocation. Page and paragraph is enough.

If we use normal allocation you allocate wounds to the chariot until it dies. As it has no wounds being a vehicle it will never die no matter what you shoot it with. Hence making the unit immortal.

Didn't my original post contain HIWPI ? Maybe you missed it, my suggestion was a possible workaround.

Naw wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Vehicles can join units, provided they have the IC rule, since the IC rule doesn't care what kind of unit the IC is.

Sorry, must have missed the page in my rulebook then. Can you give me the pg and a citation?

Naw wrote:I did explain why I think it is not supported by the rules, you can then choose not to agree with me. Does it make my interpretation less truthful than yours?

I did not ask you to cite anything, you just felt you needed to. I did not have the rules available, but I also could not remember that permission, because it is not there.

So to recap why I interpret that a chariot is not allowed to join a unit of e.g. infantry:
1) You couldn't join another vehicle even of the same type, including two IC CCB's
2) Units are not allowed to join in the first place and having them be joined to a vehicle is not supported by the rules

So explain away these points. Just because something is not specifically forbidden does not mean that you have a permission to do so.

I have fulfilled my burden.

1) irrelevant
2) irrelevant, as the IC joins the unit, not the unit joining the IC.

So, given your argument has no rules basis, and I have general permission to join my IC to any unit , with the ONLY restrictions being on the unit being joined, not on the unit type of the IC, your concession on this matter is accepted .

MarkCron, where do you cite from the rules that the CBB can't join anything? Do you have a specific line saying that the CCB can't join anything?

Only IC have the ability to join units.

The CCB is an upgrade option to the Necron Overlord who very clearly has IC. There is no line that takes away IC when he chooses the upgrade. Such a line exists in the Chaos Demon codex, but not in the Necron Codex. This is a critical bit of info since GW is showing here that it chooses to differentiate between the Necron chariot and the Chaos chariot.

When he upgrades to a CCB, he takes on a vehicle profile as part of a dual profile that is the Chariot. There is no incompatibility between his having a vehicle profile and IC. So there is no mechanic taking away IC. IC is still very clearly on the Chariot and invokable. There is no line anywhere that says a vehicle cannot have IC. No such restriction is placed on IC.

Other codexes have instances of Characters with IC taking on Bikes or Jetbikes as upgrade options and therewith changing their unit type from infantry to bike or jetbike. They do not lose IC in the process. So changing unit type or acquiring some new unit profile does not cause IC to be dropped.

The Chariot is a single model. The Overlord does not join the chariot, nor does he embark on the Chariot as a dedicated transport.

The Overlord simply invokes the IC which allows him to join a unit. Per IC rules, he cannot join vehicles or monstrous creatures.

Another IC may not join him as per the restriction on IC that does not allow an IC to join a vehicle.


SO . . . there needs to be a line on a FAQ that takes off IC off the Overlord when he upgrades to the CCB since it is on there and there is nothing preventing it from being invoked.

Please show me some line in a FAQ or some mechanic that takes away IC from the CCB.

 Shandara wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No you have to allocate normally unless you have rules that change that. Please tell me what rules you're suggesting using other than the normal wound pool allocation. Page and paragraph is enough.

If we use normal allocation you allocate wounds to the chariot until it dies. As it has no wounds being a vehicle it will never die no matter what you shoot it with. Hence making the unit immortal.

Didn't my original post contain HIWPI ? Maybe you missed it, my suggestion was a possible workaround.

So you accept that joining doesn't work RaW thank you. Does everyone else on the pro-joining side also concede that their interpretation doesn't work RaW and can we give that idea a rest jow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Col_impact I notice you're avoiding the question that destroys your argument. Your concession is accepted.

I suspect many of the pro joining camp may just be tired of arguing. So yes, I'll concede for them. You win. Three cheers. Hip hip hooray!

I don't have the Dark Angels codex with me, but as I recall, Sammael can either go into jetbike mode or AV14 skimmer mode. Does it say what happens to his IC status when he goes into skimmer mode?

As a skimmer he uses an entirely new profile, which is not an IC

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No you have to allocate normally unless you have rules that change that. Please tell me what rules you're suggesting using other than the normal wound pool allocation. Page and paragraph is enough.

If we use normal allocation you allocate wounds to the chariot until it dies. As it has no wounds being a vehicle it will never die no matter what you shoot it with. Hence making the unit immortal.

Didn't my original post contain HIWPI ? Maybe you missed it, my suggestion was a possible workaround.

So you accept that joining doesn't work RaW thank you. Does everyone else on the pro-joining side also concede that their interpretation doesn't work RaW and can we give that idea a rest jow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Col_impact I notice you're avoiding the question that destroys your argument. Your concession is accepted.

I am having trouble understanding what you are asking. Is english your native tongue? Can someone clarify what FlingItNow is asking?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) irrelevant
2) irrelevant, as the IC joins the unit, not the unit joining the IC.

Neither point was irrelevant, you'll need to try harder.

I have general permission to join my IC to any unit , with the ONLY restrictions being on the unit being joined, not on the unit type of the IC

So it is perfectly legal according to you to have CCB and another IC join together? Interesting way to read the rules.

your concession on this matter is accepted .

OMG, did I lose?? Now you just made me sad.

 jy2 wrote:
I don't have the Dark Angels codex with me, but as I recall, Sammael can either go into jetbike mode or AV14 skimmer mode. Does it say what happens to his IC status when he goes into skimmer mode?

It's a different case because of the Jetbike being a dedicated transport and the Chariot now "fusing" two profiles into one single model.

Naw wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) irrelevant
2) irrelevant, as the IC joins the unit, not the unit joining the IC.

Neither point was irrelevant, you'll need to try harder.

Erm, nope. Neither was relevant to the situation. Or are you now making up ANOTHER rule, that a unit joins an IC and not the other way around?

So, given you want me to "try harder " at answering your not-germane situation....

1) I'm not trying to join another vehicle, I'm trying to join a non vehicle unit. There is a specific restriction on an IC joining a vehicle unit - given you consider it relevant, can you cite a rule stating it has relevance? It would help your argument.
2) the rules on page 166 state the IC joins the unit. Not the other way around. Again, if you believe that a unit joins an IC, cite some rules.

REally, cite some rules. So far just your assertions, proven wrong or irrelevant....

naw wrote:

I have general permission to join my IC to any unit , with the ONLY restrictions being on the unit being joined, not on the unit type of the IC

So it is perfectly legal according to you to have CCB and another IC join together? Interesting way to read the rules.

Yes, if the CBC joins the IC unit. Again, this is allowed in the general allowance for joining units. It is also a correct way of reading the rules, and, for once, it would be good for you to actually provide some, for the first time...

naw wrote:

your concession on this matter is accepted .

OMG, did I lose?? Now you just made me sad.

Yay, sarcasm, helpful. Found any rules to back up your argument,as per the tenets, or will you just hand wave away, again?

After catching up on the thread...

This can all be summed up as those that see the absence of the Daemon's FAQ/Erratta missing from the Necron FAQ as just an oversight vs those that view it as intentional and precedence/parallel instances should never be applied in any ruling of any sort.


No matter what camp you fall into, this probably will never be resolved before the post is locked or the next batch of FAQs come out.

I am having trouble understanding what you are asking. Is english your native tongue? Can someone clarify what FlingItNow is asking?

Yes English is my first language. Is it yours? I notice you're not from England. Perhaps that is why you are struggling with such a simple question. I'll try again.

If you join the CCB to a unit you have a new unit containing say Warriors and a CCB. Are you with me at this point?

Is that unit a "Chariot unit" as laid out in the rulebook? Yes or no?

 Unholyllama wrote:
After catching up on the thread...

This can all be summed up as those that see the absence of the Daemon's FAQ/Erratta missing from the Necron FAQ as just an oversight vs those that view it as intentional and precedence/parallel instances should never be applied in any ruling of any sort.


No matter what camp you fall into, this probably will never be resolved before the post is locked or the next batch of FAQs come out.

The issue has been resolved pages ago. Mods want it to be kept open, so get your free +1s as long as you can

RAW: A CCB can join a unit as the Overlord keeps its IC USR and its rules explicitely state that the CCB and the Overlord are always considered to be one model.

RAI / HYWPI suggestion: The CCB cannot join units.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I am having trouble understanding what you are asking. Is english your native tongue? Can someone clarify what FlingItNow is asking?

Yes English is my first language. Is it yours? I notice you're not from England. Perhaps that is why you are struggling with such a simple question. I'll try again.

If you join the CCB to a unit you have a new unit containing say Warriors and a CCB. Are you with me at this point?

Is that unit a "Chariot unit" as laid out in the rulebook? Yes or no?

That's not how it's laid out in the rulebook. The CCB is a Chariot that is an Independent Character and it can join the unit of Warriors and become part of the unit of Warriors. It also has the power to leave as an IC by moving away, etc. and at that point in time becomes a Chariot unit again. It's always a Chariot. It's all there in the section on Independent Character. Basically, just apply the IC rules as they are in the rulebook.

If there is some point you are trying to make, just make your point.



Regarding English . . . so there is nothing wrong with this sentence?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Col_impact do when the CCB joins a unit is that unit then a chariot unit? Yes or no.

Are you going to answer the question??? Yes or no is the unit of Warriors + CCB a chariot unit?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Are you going to answer the question??? Yes or no is the unit of Warriors + CCB a chariot unit?

No as I said, the Independent Character (which would be the CCB in this instance) becomes part of the unit of warriors. Just look at the Independent Character rule and apply it.