Man beheads woman in OK

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**whembly**

motyak wrote:
whembly wrote:

As to what's happening in OK... um, did ya'll check the news?

o.O

Instead of going all Edward Nigma, how about you just link the news source you are talking about? I'd say its more polite that way

Just the various comments on his FB pages and the local news reporters tweets. ie:

Vaughn foods Co-worker who witnessed murder tells #news9 Murder suspect Alton Nolen was shouting Islamic phrases. FBI investigating
— Robin Marsh KWTV-9 (@robinmarsh9) September 26, 2014

There's even a fricking hashtag called #oklahomabeheading:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/oklahomabeheading?src=hash

I thought FB was bad... but, this is giving me "The Forest Whitaker Eye Twitch™"

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.

Yes. We need to not stop here and continue on that line of thinking. If both books are bad, what should we do with them and their influences?

Goliath wrote:
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner for "Let's blame it all on Islam" Bingo!

There is a bingo for that?

RatBot wrote:
Most mainstream Muslims, prominent scholars included, agree that most of the "kill the non-believers!" stuff was in the context of the wars Muhammad fought.

Of course. Only apostates and people trying to convince others out of Islam must be executed.

RatBot wrote:
Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian).

Uh, really?

**Jihadin**

Like they know Arabic to confirm this guy was yelling Islamic phrases from the Koran/Quran

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Maybe he was yelling the English translation?
Picture him yelling that:

The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish. His wealth and gains will not exempt him. He will be plunged in flaming Fire, And his wife, the wood-carrier, Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.

.

**RatBot**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

RatBot wrote:
Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian).

Uh, really?

Yep. There's actually a lot of debate in the Zoroastrian community whether they should allow converts because their numbers are dwindling.

And the requirement may technically not include being ethnically Persian, but you must be born of Zoroastrian parents, or at least a Zoroastrian father, and thus, at least partially Persian, as Zoroastrians were originally Persian.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

RatBot wrote:
And the requirement may technically not include being ethnically Persian, but you must be born of Zoroastrian parents, or at least a Zoroastrian father

Oh. I see. Like Jews, then. I did not knew that.

**Grey Templar**

I believe Judaism allows you to marry in. its also passed down on the maternal side and not the father's IIRC.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yeah, it is the mother.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

So between 1985 and 1996, a substantial gap of eleven years, we don't know when he lost touch with his faith. You can make assumptions, but those are assumptions with little to no evidence. We don't know if he lost his religion years before the bombing, or minutes after. That is why I have asked for a link to the interview, to clarify this matter.

It's funny you say that the assumptions everyone else is making aren't correct, but the assumptions you are making are, most likely because you are the one assuming them. We have the same evidence that you, however you just ignore it, so whatever buddy. The TIME magazine link is dead so you have to go by what the article you quoted says, which for the third time is: he "lost touch with the Church," however he still "maintains his core beliefs" in 1996.

It doesn't take expert level reading comprehension or deductive powers to figure that out.

Leaving that aside for the time being the Oklahoma bombing was a secular act of violence motivated by a political grievance (legitimate or otherwise). I don't believe that religion has been established as a factor in the attack in the OP, at present it appears to be an act of workplace violence.

We have established this, but that doesn't change the fact that you distorted the truth to fit your preconceived notions.

**Dreadclaw69**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:

So between 1985 and 1996, a substantial gap of eleven years, we don't know when he lost touch with his faith. You can make assumptions, but those are assumptions with little to no evidence. We don't know if he lost his religion years before the bombing, or minutes after. That is why I have asked for a link to the interview, to clarify this matter.
It's funny you say that the assumptions everyone else is making aren't correct, but the assumptions you are making are, most likely because you are the one assuming them. We have the same evidence that you, however you just ignore it, so whatever buddy. The TIME magazine link is dead so you have to go by what the article you quoted says, which for the third time is: he "lost touch with the Church," however he still "maintains his core beliefs" in 1996.

It doesn't take expert level reading comprehension or deductive powers to figure that out.

"Whatever" - the last quip of the ignorant

I haven't ignored anything. I've posted it several times because people have either ignored what was posted or have picked and chose their quotes (more on this topic in a moment)

In his interview in 1996 he admits that he lost his faith. That does not mean that in 1996 he lost his faith. It may have lapsed some time before that. That is what I have been attempting to clarify. If you can provide me some actual evidence I'll gladly review my stance, until then it is still unclear as to when his faith lapsed.
Your selective quoting does you a dis-service, especially when you omit statements such as "he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up" " which calls into question whether or not he was practicing his religion.

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Leaving that aside for the time being the Oklahoma bombing was a secular act of violence motivated by a political grievance (legitimate or otherwise). I don't believe that religion has been established as a factor in the attack in the OP, at present it appears to be an act of workplace violence.
We have established this, but that doesn't change the fact that you distorted the truth to fit your preconceived notions.

I have provided facts and sources. You have provided nothing of the sort. I have distorted nothing, I absolutely resent your baseless accusations. In no way was the Oklahoma bombing motivated by religious dogma. To claim otherwise would be to ignore all evidence that exists.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
"Whatever" - the last quip of the ignorant

I haven't ignored anything. I've posted it several times because people have either ignored what was posted or have picked and chose their quotes (more on this topic in a moment)

No, you just have zero reading comprehension abilities. More on that later.

In his interview in 1996 he admits that he lost his faith. That does not mean that in 1996 he lost his faith. It may have lapsed some time before that. That is what I have been attempting to clarify. If you can provide me some actual evidence I'll gladly review my stance, until then it is still unclear as to when his faith lapsed.
Your selective quoting does you a dis-service, especially when you omit statements such as "he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up" " which calls into question whether or not he was practicing his religion.

No one, not even me, is claiming that he as a die-hard follower of Catholicism at the time of the bombing. One more time, read slow so it makes sense: no one is labeled him a die-hard follower of Catholicism. But again, that doesn't mean he was without religious thoughts, seeing how in the blurb you provided he even says he believes in God. You are the one making the ridiculous and baseless claim that he was faithless when he bombed the federal building... of which you have provided zero evidence of. To contrary, you're "evidence" actually has him claiming to believe in God (which is kinda hard for an agnostic to do, by the way). Great reading skills, yet again!

I have provided facts and sources. You have provided nothing of the sort. I have distorted nothing, I absolutely resent your baseless accusations. In no way was the Oklahoma bombing motivated by religious dogma. To claim otherwise would be to ignore all evidence that exists.

Look pal, NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT. I took the liberty of quoting all of the times I clearly claimed that the bombing had nothing to do with religion. Enjoy:

So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.

We have established this (PS- this was me agreeing with you that the bombing was not religiously motivated)

One more bit of information, for posterity's sake: McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform pre-requiem Mass music on the eve of his execution. He requested a Catholic chaplain.

**Dreadclaw69**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No, you just have zero reading comprehension abilities. More on that later.

So your first resort is ad hominem? This promises to be a wholly worthwhile response you have prepared

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No one, not even me, is claiming that he as a die-hard follower of Catholicism at the time of the bombing. One more time, read slow so it makes sense: no one is labeled him a die-hard follower of Catholicism. But again, that doesn't mean he was without religious thoughts, seeing how in the blurb you provided he even says he believes in God.

You mean no-one other than d-usa who attempted to identify him as a "white Christian right-wing military veteran extremist", and who also wondered why "whites, Christians, right-wingers, and military veterans are not painted with the same brush as the idiot who set off the bomb". Otherwise you're going to have to explain the significance of this because it doesn't seem to correspond with anything that I have actually said, and seems to refute arguments that I have not made
Lets looks at that entire passage one last time;

McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[83] but may have voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[84] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]

1985 - confirmed a Catholic
1986 - no confirmed religious belief
1987 - no confirmed religious belief
1988 - no confirmed religious belief
1989 - no confirmed religious belief
1990 - no confirmed religious belief
1991 - no confirmed religious belief
1992 - no confirmed religious belief
1993 - no confirmed religious belief
1994 - no confirmed religious belief
1995 - no confirmed religious belief
1996 - in an interview professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."
1997 - no confirmed religious belief
1998 - no confirmed religious belief
1999 - no confirmed religious belief
2000 - no confirmed religious belief
2001 - stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion
2002 - stated that he was agnostic but had a Catholic sacrament
Religious thoughts or not, it is immaterial because they were not a motivating factor

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
You are the one making the ridiculous and baseless claim that he was faithless when he bombed the federal building... of which you have provided zero evidence of.

Saying that he was not motivated by religious belief =/= faithless. I have repeatedly asked for clarification, you have provided none, resorted to ad hominems, and attempting to argue by attrition simply restating your argument and ignoring any counter argument

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
To contrary, you're "evidence" actually has him claiming to believe in God (which is kinda hard for an agnostic to do, by the way). Great reading skills, yet again!

I could respond in kind to your repeated ad hominems about reading comprehension by pointing out the incorrect use of "you're" but I won't drag this conversation down to your level of mud slinging.
So you want to say that he had religious thoughts at the time of the attack, but that he couldn't because he was agnostic. Should I point out the contradiction in that?

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Look pal, NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT. I took the liberty of quoting all of the times I clearly claimed that the bombing had nothing to do with religion. Enjoy:

So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
We have established this (PS- this was me agreeing with you that the bombing was not religiously motivated)

Your reading comprehension skills should have allowed you to realize that my restating my point was a direct refuting of your baseless claim (which you managed to omit and still have not substantiated) that I somehow "distorted the truth"

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
One more bit of information, for posterity's sake: McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform pre-requiem Mass music on the eve of his execution. He requested a Catholic chaplain.

So he was confirmed a Catholic, lapsed at some point as yet undetermined, was unsure of the existence of God, maintained some core beliefs, and asked for a Chaplain. So your point is that at various stages of is life he picked and chose what small parts of a faith he once adhered to to suit himself?

**motyak**

Let's move on from the McVeigh, it's dragging the thread a bit off topic.

**whembly**

Here's a bizarre coincident for ya:
Fired Oklahoma City nursing home worker threatened beheading, police say

**Raven911**

Grey Templar wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
I'm afraid points may only be awarded if the gun is accompanied by the line "Get off my lawn."

Not necessarily true. If the weapon is confirmed to be a shotgun, then "Get off my lawn" is indeed mandatory.

Otherwise, there are many other acceptable lines. Including but not limited to "Ya feeling lucky? Punk?" and "You have 30 seconds to comply!"

"Get off my lawn" was used with a M1 Garand, not a shotgun. with a shotgun usually sliding the pump is all the conversation that is needed.

**Peter Wiggin**

The fact that there is any hand wringing or questioning whether or not this is a terrorististic action is mind boggling, speaking only to what I've seen on other forums and social media. IDGAF who you are, if you saw somebody's head off with a knife you are seeking to inspire fear and/or intimidate anyone viewing or hearing of the activity. That is why cartels send bags of heads to public places. Its why ISIS jihadi's disseminate video's of it. Its why the guillotine was used for public executions in France.

As for the talk of religion, ALL Abrahamic faiths are inherently bloodthirsty and conquest oriented. Its perfectly fine to say that islam, christianity, or/and judaism is/are violent & dangerous ideologies because they ARE. The historical record supports this nicely, as does modernity. As to this particular case, if one tries to negate the overall context of the method of slaying, the timing with world events, and the extremist sentiments dude expressed you'd need to TRY not to see a connection with radical Abrahamic ideology.

**Frazzled**

Evidently he was fired for ranting about stoning for women being an appropriate punishment.

**Dreadclaw69**

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/28/us/oklahoma-beheading/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(CNN) -- A man accused of beheading a woman in Oklahoma will be charged Monday, authorities said.

Charges against Alton Alexander Nolen will include first-degree murder and assault with a deadly weapon, according to Jeremy Lewis, spokesman for the Moore police department.

Nolen, a recent convert to Islam, allegedly attacked a woman Thursday at a Vaughan Foods processing plant, soon after he learned he'd lost his job there.

Police said he walked into the front office and attacked one of the first people he encountered, Colleen Hufford, 54. He severed her head with a knife and then attacked 43-year-old Traci Johnson. Johnson is in stable condition at a nearby hospital for treatment of "numerous wounds," according to police.

Mark Vaughan, the company CEO and a reserve deputy with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office, confronted and twice shot Nolen, authorities said.

Nolen, 30, was interviewed by investigators on Friday. Police have not revealed what he said.

Suspect's Facebook page focused on Islam
Nolen's Facebook page uses the name Jah'Keem Yisrael. The cover photo appears to be of fighters holding weapons. The postings include numerous all-caps messages about Islam and quotations from the Quran.

There's no reference to job dissatisfaction, and no indication he planned an attack.

Some postings are political, such as one that runs with an image of the Joker, from "Batman" comics: "AMERICA SO CALL HELPS IRAQ (WHICH NOT)- WELL WHY CANT U HELP THE GAZA CITIZENS AGAINST ISRAEL LOL..I UPLOAD THIS PIK BECAUSE AMERICA AND ISRAEL ARE WICKED. WAKE UP MUSLIMS!!!"

CNN confirmed with Moore police that the Facebook page and the images belong to Nolen.

No terrorism link found
Nolen had tried to convert co-workers to Islam, officials said.

U.S. law enforcement officials said there are no indications linking Thursday's attack to terrorism. In the Middle East, ISIS, which calls itself the Islamic State, has drawn world attention with videotaped beheadings.

In a Facebook video posted by Megan Nolan, two women who say they are Nolan's mother and sister apologize for his actions.

"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."

The woman who identifies herself as Nolan's sister says he's never been a violent person.
"For something like this to have happened, we're all still in shock right now," she says. "We're praying for both of the victims' families, and I ask that everyone keep us in their prayers."

The Oklahoma Conference of Churches issued a statement Saturday urging "all Oklahomans and people everywhere not to equate Mr. (Nolen's) actions with the beliefs and practices of the Islamic Community in Oklahoma."

"The Islamic Community of Oklahoma has consistently condemned all violence -- most especially acts of violence ostensibly carried out in the name of Islam," the statement said. "Along with our Muslim brothers and sisters we affirm that true Islam is, in fact, a religion of peace and that those inflicting violence in the name of Islam are perverting Islam for their own ends."

National Muslim organizations have made similar statements as ISIS' brutality has come to light.

A 2011 Pew Research poll found that one in five Muslim-Americans believes there is either a great deal or fair amount of support for extremism in the Muslim-American community.

Nearly half said Muslim leaders in the United States had not done enough to speak out against extremism, while a third said Muslim leaders had done enough.

Eighty-one percent said suicide bombings and other violence against civilians to defend Islam are never justified.

Officer: I 'would have killed him'
Nolen was incarcerated until March 2013 for possession of a controlled substance, escaping confinement and resisting an officer.

CNN affiliate KOKI reported Nolen was arrested in 2006 when an officer saw him throw a bag of crack cocaine and a bag of marijuana out of a vehicle window as the officer pulled him over for traffic violations.

Nolen was put on probation, KOKI reported. In 2010, a state trooper stopped Nolen for an expired tag and discovered he had outstanding warrants, KOKI reported.

The trooper, Betsy Randolph, told CNN on Saturday that Nolen started struggling after she put a handcuff on one wrist. Nolen ran and was arrested after a 12-hour manhunt.

"He kept looking over his shoulder because he knew I wanted to shoot him, but obviously I couldn't shoot him in the back," Randolph told CNN. "If there had been any way to know the things he is alleged to have done a few days ago I would have killed him when I had a chance."

A spokesman for Gov. Mary Fallin, Alex Weintz, noted the governor had blocked Nolen from receiving parole in 2012.

Weintz said Saturday: "The suspect came up for parole in 2012 and the governor denied his parole. She reviewed his file and didn't think that he was a good candidate for early parole."

I think someone should have a talk with Trooper Randolph and see if there are some issues that she might want to address.

**Ouze**

Yeah, usually cops are pretty good about pretending they don't want to shoot someone who at the time posed no threat of death or injury to someone.

It's OK, buddy. More fish in the sea, I'm sure you'll get to shoot some fleeing suspect eventually!

Also, not to be a pendantic jerk, but it's Trooper Randolph, not Trooper Nolen - Nolen is the beheading suspect.

**Medium of Death**

Somebody probably needs to have a word with Nolen too. He's clearly got some issues...

**Dreadclaw69**

Ouze wrote:
Also, not to be a pendantic jerk, but it's Trooper Randolph, not Trooper Nolen - Nolen is the beheading suspect.

No offence taken, I was in the wrong. Post updated with correct information

**Ensis Ferrae**

"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."

That is just so rich... Clearly this lady is delusional. How many witnesses were there? I'm sure the workplace has some security cameras around. Clearly "Mother" is wrong about who her kid is.

**Kanluwen**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."

That is just so rich... Clearly this lady is delusional. How many witnesses were there? I'm sure the workplace has some security cameras around. Clearly "Mother" is wrong about who her kid is.

Calling the lady delusional for not wanting to remember her son as someone who beheaded a coworker is a bit much, don't you think?

**Ensis Ferrae**

Kanluwen wrote:

Calling the lady delusional for not wanting to remember her son as someone who beheaded a coworker is a bit much, don't you think?

As has been pointed out... the dude had a pretty serious record... Assaulting people, multiple times, escape from detention facilities, drug charges?? Yeah, this is not a "good kid" or does mom not know about that stuff?

I can understand the sentiment IF this had been his first ever incident with the law, but it isnt... In fact, he's apparently been in prison multiple times (or at least for an extended time)

**Asherian Command**

Well then.

That is quite a story.

**the shrouded lord**

how did he cut someone's head off with a KNIFE. also, the ceo is a hero.

**Ensis Ferrae**

the shrouded lord wrote:
how did he cut someone's head off with a KNIFE. also, the ceo is a hero.

From the article, I think the plant is a meat processing plant, and has a lot of really big, really sharp knives... The OP article talked about the knife he used being similar to/same as what was used there normally. It also made it sound like this was a fairly lengthy process, with a lot of rough hacks after he'd stabbed her a fair few times.

**Ouze**

the shrouded lord wrote:
how did he cut someone's head off with a KNIFE.

Since he was a meatpacker, I think the answer is "practice".

**the shrouded lord**

That... explains it. he needs to be shot through the hands and left to rot in a pit. a concrete pit.

**Medium of Death**

Jihadi John seems to be making short work of journalists with a knife. I don't think it would be difficult as such, it's just the concept is so monstrous and disturbing to most people that you wouldn't think it possible. I certainly wouldn't have the stomach for it.