Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
He bombed the federal building in 1995 and the interview with TIME magazine was in 1996 when he stated what I put in my post. He became an "agnostic" according to a book written in 2001. He also took Catholic rites before his execution, for what it's worth.
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
He bombed the federal building in 1995 and the interview with TIME magazine was in 1996 when he stated what I put in my post. He became an "agnostic" according to a book written in 2001. He also took Catholic rites before his execution, for what it's worth.
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
Yeah, but just because he was Christian doesn't mean that the crime was due to his religion! To claim so would be an absurd generalisation.
That evil muslim who'd just been fired and had a criminal record, well there's all the proof you need that it was based on religion.
Think you two need to clarify which definition of "Extremist" your looking for.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Jihadin wrote: Think you two need to clarify which definition of "Extremist" your looking for.
I'm not looking for any definition of "Extremist".
I am looking for a word that fits the definition of "Tendency to associate any crime committed by a Muslim with Islam as a whole" though. Or maybe a word for "the act of only blaming it on religion when it's not someone of your own religion".
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
There is certainly a correlation. I personally don't think that the conversion was the cause of the crime, but rather a simple correlation that the same people who are more likely to commit a violent crime are also vulnerable to conversion. People who are angry with their current situation and want to do something about it.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
There is certainly a correlation. I personally don't think that the conversion was the cause of the crime, but rather a simple correlation that the same people who are more likely to commit a violent crime are also vulnerable to conversion. People who are angry with their current situation and want to do something about it.
You got any evidence for that claim? Cause I can't really think of any where they'd recently converted to Islam.
Grey Templar wrote: You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
I'm gonna have to ask you for a source, because I have to admit, I was scratching my head to name one other than this particular act of violence.
I didn't make the claim, and I can't speak to numbers, but there have been a few converts to Islam popping up in terroristy places doing terroristy things.
Jihadin wrote: Think you two need to clarify which definition of "Extremist" your looking for.
I'm not looking for any definition of "Extremist".
I am looking for a word that fits the definition of "Tendency to associate any crime committed by a Muslim with Islam as a whole" though. Or maybe a word for "the act of only blaming it on religion when it's not someone of your own religion".
Any of those words can apply to follower of Islam but it also can apply to all religion. Since I directed that question to Ratbot and Nuggz maybe you can help them to identify what I think they might be twinkle toeing around the word "militants"
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Are people in this thread so utterly incapable of grasping the elementary concept of correlation=\=causation.
Thank god the U.S. reduced its level of crude oil imports from Norway in that case...
It really is frightening how little justification people need for their own personal bigotry and prejudice.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I didn't make the claim, and I can't speak to numbers, but there have been a few converts to Islam popping up in terroristy places doing terroristy things.
Yeah, but some of those are not exactly 'recent' converts. And I've known people to turn up in terroisty places doing terroisty things without being Muslim.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Kelly502 wrote: Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
1) Yes, actually. I try to learn as much as I can about things before condemning everyone to do with them.
2) a) No, for one because I'm 20, and currently studying at university, and for another because I'm rather weedy, so I'd be better at designing the weapons than firing them.
b) Cool! a classic "You aren't military, you can't comment" argument! I haven't seen one of those in ages!
3) Holy gak! My country is being invaded!? Why isn't anyone on the news talking about it?! Oh god, I need to go back down south to be with my family. I don't want to die alone up here Although up here there's a basement, and I could probably spend my student loan on enough food to hide from all the radical islamic extremi-terror-jihadists that are no doubt crawling through the streets of Sheffield at this very moment, forcing my female friends to wear burkas, and imposing sharia law on toddlers.
4) I think I get it? I mean, there are Muslims in Britain, and I'm not actively protesting against the existence of Islam, and they're obviously all here because they want to slit my throat (in a halal method, of course) because I'm atheist, so I must be a sympathiser.
Azreal13 wrote: Are people in this thread so utterly incapable of grasping the elementary concept of correlation=\=causation.
Thank god the U.S. reduced its level of crude oil imports from Norway in that case...
It really is frightening how little justification people need for their own personal bigotry and prejudice.
Dear god. I had no idea Norway was killing so many people via train! How have the news not reported on this? Big oil is covering up the truth!
Right?
Because there's a statistical relationship between these two things, one must be causing the other! There's no other possible exo,a nation for it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/27 01:58:18
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
His recent conversion was pretty well ruled out as the cause, but you can't deny that there was a connection.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
True. And I never ever said that conversion was a cause. Just maybe an effect of the same cause as what made them commit the evil act.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Kelly502 wrote: Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
First off.
Never rely on your military experience on here and state your more of the "Subject Matter Expert"
Second
You seem to be a first term enlistee who is assigned to the 101st. Stop sounding like one
Third
Never ever ASSUME and you know what I mean
Fourth
Your combat experience only relates to COMBAT
Fifth
My GAWD Azreal...how the heck did your thought process lead to that grapth
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
There's quite a bit of mud (and worse things that look like mud) being slung about this thread already.
One "correction" that I'd make though... The Quran says that Christians and Jews are "of the book" and do not need to be converted, due to worshiping the same god (albeit with a different name). It then later, contradicts that by saying that ALL need to convert to Islam, or else they "deserve to lose their head" This could be literal, it could be figurative. What we do know though, is that Mohammed (the "OG" prophet) fairly routinely spread his religion by the sword.
Yes, the Bible has some pretty spectacularly genocidal and violent bits in it... But if you notice, outside of Revelation, they're pretty much ALL in the Old Testament. As in the "Jewish part" of the book (as it is, I don't know the name that the Jewish community uses for the entire work, but the first few books are the Torah... or Talmud?? maybe one is the whole thing, and one just the first few books of Law). Once Jesus comes along, he tries to make things much more flower power, love everyone and get along, man... Which of course, gets perverted throughout history going forward.
We do know that this guy was recently fired, and he was pissed, and apparently he blamed one person in particular (the woman he beheaded). Now, as a theory, perhaps if he had been let go while still not following any religion, or as a Christian, or Jew, or Jehovah's Witness, or Mormon, or even Buddhist, he would have gone Postal and killed this woman... But in this case, the only real difference being that the beheading part was religiously motivated, while the actual act of the killing/going Postal in the former work place was an extreme reaction that would have happened anyhow.
I guess basically what I'm saying is that there's a possibility that this could/would have happened regardless, it's just that certain actions as a variable were affected by other variables.
His recent conversion was pretty well ruled out as the cause, but you can't deny that there was a connection.
Reported conversion; since the guy hasn't actually been named, we don't know.
Also, I wouldn't really call 'over a year ago' particularly recent.
Also Also, he attacked a cat and a flowerbed as well, and I'm fairly sure the passage that always gets thrown around at this point refers to beheading unbelievers, not roses.
Oklahoma beheader: “O ye Muslims make sure you give your children the knowledge of Islam”
Robert Spencer Sep 26, 2014 at 9:45pm converts to Islam, Jihad in the U.S., mosques 6 Comments
Jah'KeemYisrael3The Oklahoma beheader’s Muslim name is Jah’Keem Yisrael. His Facebook page (thanks to Pamela Geller) is all about Islam. It is not only full of Qur’anic and moral exhortations, but also several pictures of Yisrael at a local mosque. Watch for mosque officials to say they hardly knew him and to complain about “Islamophobia” and “backlash.”
In Jah’Keem Yisrael we once again have a convert to Islam who became quite devout and became violent. In the wake of the murder he committed today, watch for more assurances that the murder had nothing to do with the religion that exhorts believers in its holy book, “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks.”
In case the Facebook page gets taken down, Pamela Geller has a great deal of it here.
Also Also, he attacked a cat and a flowerbed as well, and I'm fairly sure the passage that always gets thrown around at this point refers to beheading unbelievers, not roses.
But.... everyone knows that cats are LaVeyan Satanists!!!... ohh and those roses?? totally hindu and DEFINITELY needing a "convertin"
(yes, I am being sarcastic here... except about the cats... seriously, feth cats )
Yep, basically that dude was crazy, and until there are more facts about him, I will keep that opinion.
My GAWD Azreal...how the heck did your thought process lead to that graph
I was looking for something to illustrate the absurdity of assuming that a correlation must mean a cause, had a quick Google and the web is full of stupid examples of extraordinary statistical relationships.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ensis Ferrae wrote: There's quite a bit of mud (and worse things that look like mud) being slung about this thread already.
One "correction" that I'd make though... The Quran says that Christians and Jews are "of the book" and do not need to be converted, due to worshiping the same god (albeit with a different name). It then later, contradicts that by saying that ALL need to convert to Islam, or else they "deserve to lose their head" This could be literal, it could be figurative. What we do know though, is that Mohammed (the "OG" prophet) fairly routinely spread his religion by the sword.
Just to point out, in context, the Quran was sort of a "living document" and was "revealed" (that is to say, written; I don't believe any book is divinely inspired as that would require me to believe in the divine) over time. Many of the sections in which Muslims are enjoined to kill Christians and Jews occurs in the context of the fact that Muhammad and the Muslims had basically been told to pound bricks by the Pagans of Mecca, so he went to the Christians and Jews, figuring they'd listen to him, and they told him to pound bricks, too, and eventually, the non-Muslims in general got sick of Muhammad and his troublemaking (as they saw it), so they fought against the Muslims. So, in the context of the fact that the early Muslims were essentially in a state of war with their non-Muslim neighbors, it says "Kill them where you find them" or something to that effect.
Most mainstream Muslims, prominent scholars included, agree that most of the "kill the non-believers!" stuff was in the context of the wars Muhammad fought. The whole "conversion by swordpoint" was not an actual thing. In fact, people were often discouraged from converting to Islam during the early days of the post-Muhammad Caliphate, for two major reasons: 1.) The Middle Eastern tradition of ethnicity=religion, ie, Jews and Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian). and 2.) If everyone in the Islamic Empire was Muslim, there'd be no one to tax.
Basically, context matters. If it didn't, this:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
might look bad.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/27 02:34:38
Although up here there's a basement, and I could probably spend my student loan on enough food to hide from all the radical islamic extremi-terror-jihadists that are no doubt crawling through the streets of Sheffield at this very moment, forcing my female friends to wear burkas, and imposing sharia law on toddlers.
)
