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Still, no evidence that the sword is more than a life-stealing sword and is in any way manipulating farsight.
And given how they demistfied the entire enclaves in the supplement, I'd say its save to assume there are no more buggery going on without any clear evidence that shows so.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Your working from a fundamentally incorrect premise. The Tau do happily profit off the suffering of others and do enslave others. It's quite clear in much of the fluff that there are three classes in Tau society, Ethereals on top, followed by Tau, with all other races at the bottom. Non Tau are not equals, they are dominated by the Tau and essentially a lower caste that the Tau and the Ethereals. Tau do dominate their surroundings. If a planet refuses to join the greater good they don't just say "Well, thank you very much, sorry to have bothered you". They make ever increasing efforts to force them to join the empire, starting with asking the leaders, through domination by trade and eventually outright war. The greater good is not, whatever many Tau players seem to think, actually that good. It requires conformity, obedience and no freedom. It requires everyone to be enslaved to the caste above. The Tau empire is probably the least free of any of the races. Even the most grindingly harsh worlds of the IoM their is a place for some form of freedom.
The only race we ever hear much about how they fit into the Empire are the Kroot... and they have just as much freedom as they did beforehand. The Nicassar seem to be doing mostly the same things they were before, just with rail guns on their ships for self-defense, although there is little to go on. The codex says assimilated races keep their culture, so long as it doesn't conflict with the Greater Good and their own rulers, which is more than can be said for the Great Crusade.
Imperial freedom is a Commisar shooting you for retreating. There's Imperial freedom right there. "Do what you're told or we fething shoot you, no questions asked."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: The A.I have different needs than Tau; the only reason the Tau themselves are united is due to Ethereal influence. A.I do not suffer from this.
The Ethereal would have to bow to the A.I who realize what is happening, it could culminate in a war.
Farsight *still* believes in the Greater Good. We hear this time and again in both the main Codex and FE supplement. He's showed up to help the Tau in battle more than once.
Think about it logically. Back in the day, The Dawn Blade was probably owned by some Necrontyr leader. Ya know, before they became robots.
You don't give a blade like that to someone you want to dominate unless you have a means of outliving them already, because that is what the sword does. Without other evidence the Necrontyr possessed life-extension tech before they contacted the C'tan that worked just as well as the Dawn Blade, it seems foolish to think it was used primarily for mind control.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 14:48:47
Unless it was made as a gift to a rival overlord, in order to take control of them.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
But that's delving into wild speculation, and not even a good one.
Considering mind-control tech was known in the necrontyr world to exist, people would be weary of it in "gifts", and scan them, making the strategy poor at best.
And even if it IS mind control-why attach the life extending factor? if he won't check your tech you don't need for the sword to actually work.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
PhillyT wrote: Who implied the Imperium treated aliens better than Tau?
In the Tau Empire, the humans *are* aliens. That's the point- humans are better off in the Tau Empire than they are in the IoM, even if you're just talking about conscription and forced labor.
This thread demonstrates just how little people actually know about the Tau, I suspect.
Also, how much some view the Imperium to be the United States of America in space.
Freedom in the Imperium? HA.
Search & Destroy:
Inquisitor Ferenz Talan and his acolytes follow Colonel Mieza and the 16th Berdam Armoured back to their home system, in the hopes of rallying troops for a crusade against the Tau for their defeat on Falasten. However, upon arrival, they find that others have their eyes on the system.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: This thread demonstrates just how little people actually know about the Tau, I suspect.
Also, how much some view the Imperium to be the United States of America in space.
Freedom in the Imperium? HA.
There are signs of surprising social freedoms in the Imperium - some of which are notably absent from the Tau.
The Imperium does not care if you are homosexual, as long as you can hold a gun.
The Tau Empire doesn't care if you are capable of even feeling love at all: you will breed with this person.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
GreaterGoodIreland wrote: This thread demonstrates just how little people actually know about the Tau, I suspect.
Also, how much some view the Imperium to be the United States of America in space.
Freedom in the Imperium? HA.
Freedoms vary by planet. The Imperium... that is, the Adeptus Terra, the Administratum, the massive, galactic bureaucracy that oversees the day-to-day operations of the Imperium, doesn't give much of a damn how a planet is run, so long as its tithe is met and its laws (which are surprisingly few) are followed. Venerate the God-Emperor, tithe your psykers, shun the Xeno. That's pretty much it as far as Imperial laws go.
Now, local laws, on a planetary level, dictated by whatever political figure rules the planet, now, that's an entirely different ball of wax, and such conditions will vary planet-to-planet, and possibly even vary between nations on a single planet. One thing that can be said about all planets in the Imperium is that no two planets are exactly alike. As long as a planet is meeting its tithe-grade and not having heretical cults spring up or making deals with Xenos, there's no reason a planet could not be a liberal democracy.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Exactly with the IoM it varies *gasp* just like the real world political boundries!
With the Tau you get the same thing, everywhere, all the time. remember not to talk back to your Tau masters you may find yourself being "questioned".
And this... uniformity, is only being enforced because of, you guessed it, the Ethereal; whereas humans have already shown to be able to live on their own quite well,
Life in the imperium: "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."
Cruel and bloody aren’t exactly signs of a liberal and democratic society. The only nice place in the Imperium I can think of is Ultramar.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
Psienesis wrote: As long as a planet is meeting its tithe-grade and not having heretical cults spring up or making deals with Xenos, there's no reason a planet could not be a liberal democracy.
Funny... the only figure I remember in the Imperium that was big on democracy was Perturabo. How did that turn out?
With the Tau you get the same thing, everywhere, all the time. remember not to talk back to your Tau masters you may find yourself being "questioned".
Spoken like someone how hasn't held a joke yet in their life.
It doesn't matter how racist, sexist, religious, anti-religious, Nazi, Zionist, Communist, fascist, stupid, narcissistic, conservative, liberal, libertarian, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, lazy, hard-working, or anything your boss is.
Even in America, you talk back to your boss, your ass is canned.
Of course, since being "questioned" will inevitably be preferably to being dragged into the street and shot, there's still more freedom in the Tau Empire than in the Imperium.
The Imperium does not care if you are homosexual, as long as you die charging hundreds of thousands of Orks while a Commisar literally holds a gun to the back of your head.
I fixed it for you. Except you could also die in a factory that makes The Jungle by Upton Sinclair look like a tropical paradise.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/24 07:49:00
Redcruisair wrote: Life in the imperium: "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."
Cruel and bloody aren’t exactly signs of a liberal and democratic society. The only nice place in the Imperium I can think of is Ultramar.
That is one quote. There are places that are not like that, Ultramar, and there are entire classes of planets, Garden and Shrine worlds, that are actually paradise and temple worlds, so it isn't like there isn't ample fluff supporting the notion that there are places that are fine to live in. The minority for sure, but they are there!
Or you could die because a water caste warrior disagrees with the fire caste on how to proceed with dealing with a invasive species that obviously is not native to a planet and all evidence suggests that even the Imperium wasn't able to deal with it.
The situation I'm talking about is Tau being quite idiotic in situations even a Imperial Admech team would be a littttttttle bit hesitant.
Feral world, Imperial research facility, thousands of bodies, all mutated, mutations vary, facility is built like a prison, Space marine corpses everywhere, obviously not recovered no survivors. Doors had been sealed for at least a century, multiple levels burrowing deeper into the crust. As they proceed deeper bodies show greater mutations, not even human after a certain point, SM bodies in even greater numbers.
They reach the bottom, one last SM a Iron Hand, Spore plants the size of a gue'la are everywhere. Water caste first move, "WE MUST CUT THE SPORE!"
11 gue'la, 1 water caste, 2 drones later we have 12 Tryannids running around. Earth caste reactivates Iron Hand because he is all machine at this point, him and firewarrior kill tyrannids. Earth caste was infected he goes with SM to destory root of infection.
Last words? There are even Greater Goods than the Tau greater good. Also water caste was a dumbass, goddamn melon-fether
PhillyT wrote: Who implied the Imperium treated aliens better than Tau?
In the Tau Empire, the humans *are* aliens. That's the point- humans are better off in the Tau Empire than they are in the IoM, even if you're just talking about conscription and forced labor.
Not really. They are either ruled by their own or enslaved to an alien. I think one is much better than the other.
PhillyT wrote: Who implied the Imperium treated aliens better than Tau?
In the Tau Empire, the humans *are* aliens. That's the point- humans are better off in the Tau Empire than they are in the IoM, even if you're just talking about conscription and forced labor.
Not really. They are either ruled by their own or enslaved to an alien. I think one is much better than the other.
I think what he means is a higher standard of living. And humans on captured human planets are generally ruled by humans, it's just that the planet itself answers to the tau.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
PhillyT wrote: There are places that are not like that, Ultramar,
As I mentioned before, Ultramar seems to be the exception to the rule. Though it hardly matters, as a few planets doesn’t count for much when you consider how big the Imperium is.
PhillyT wrote: and there are entire classes of planets, Garden and Shrine worlds, that are actually paradise and temple worlds,
Have you seen the suburbs on Terra? Not exactly a nice place to live in if you are the common man.
And as for paradise worlds, they are reserved for important military personal only. Good luck getting on a paradise world if you’re a standard imperial citizen.
PhillyT wrote: so it isn't like there isn't ample fluff supporting the notion that there are places that are fine to live in. The minority for sure, but they are there!
And I’m sure that this particular notion is of great comfort to the billions of humans toiling thanklessly every day on some godforsaken toxic hellhole of a world.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
That isn't really any different from here on earth. The quote is typical grimdark. There is a large percentage of humans living their lives in less than ideal conditions. Some are living in squaller. Those living on agriworlds, garden worlds, or shrine worlds live pretty simple but easy lives. There are those on forge worlds, mine worlds, and other places where life is pretty crap, but it isn't as bad as all that. The fluff spells out an existence that, removing the dire quotes, reads pretty similar to what most humans on earth currently face.
Unlike the Star Child's assertions at the end of Mass Effect, AI rebellion is not inevitable. The geth are also a really bad example, as they love their creators. They weren't tired of being used for labour (their main motivation is being helpful to the quarians), they acted purely in self-defence because they were being attacked. It was the quarians who started it and had a grudge, not the geth, and the geth only became truly hostile once under the control of the extremely hostile Reapers.
One or more AI rebelling does not mean all of them will, just the same as with sentient organics. Even if they gained self-awareness (which doesn't just spontaneously happen), they don't become infinitely smart. AI who have learned to "hack" will be attempting to do so against AI who were purposely designed for cyberwarfare, and there's no reason to assume that AI would even be "hackable" in the first place (if anything, the best hope for the rebel-AI would be to get into contact with the loyalist AI and attempt to win it over through debate). Also, they would not begin with Tau beliefs or even Tau-like thought processes, but they would probably take them in for review and consideration, incorporating them into their own beliefs if they take it favourably. Why does everyone assume that machine intelligences have to be totally logical? There's no way to predict that. The AI could decide that it just likes the Tau, and that's why it works with them. Lack of recognisable emotion doesn't mean total practicality and objectiveness, contrary to Star Trek.
It's also kind of difficult to accidentally create a hyper-intelligent machine race. There are plenty of computers in the real world that work better in concert with each other, sharing computational loads and so on. We're really not worried about Predator Drones becoming self-aware, deeming all human life unfit to live, and then super-hacking the whole world and killing us all. There would be a hardware limit to how intelligent a given amount of Tau drones could become, and even once they reached this limit, it would just mean they would be really, really good at shooting and complex calculations, because cloud computing isn't a straight path to sapience.
PhillyT wrote: Who implied the Imperium treated aliens better than Tau?
In the Tau Empire, the humans *are* aliens. That's the point- humans are better off in the Tau Empire than they are in the IoM, even if you're just talking about conscription and forced labor.
Not really. They are either ruled by their own or enslaved to an alien. I think one is much better than the other.
... except it's really more a matter of being ruled by aliens or enslaved by your own.
The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
The Tau benefit also from the fact that the Men of Iron are portrayed as being multitudes more self-aware, advanced and intelligent than Tau Drone technology.
Before they rebelled, they were an fully self-aware race. I always thought it would have been cooler if when the Necrons came out in 2nd edition, they ended up being a lost remnant of the Men of Iron come back to wage war, not what ended up at Space Tomb Kings. The latter is just fine with the rest of the 40K mythos, but Men of Iron would have been awesome.
A Tau Drone uprising is about as likely as a Police-Dog uprising.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/25 00:53:16
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
The Tau master true FTL travel and reorganize their fleets and mission command in response to this new technology. The orkiod waaaghs in and near Tau space are outmaneuvered and destroyed.
**00.3M42
The Tau are expanding at a truly incredible rate, welcoming dozens of species into their collective Greater Good per year.
This includes the A.I. of the Tau drones. Being comprised of the Tau's consciousness it is already aware of the Greater Good and is quickly and effortlessly assimilated into the existing hierarchy.
Many Tau scientists choose to download themselves into the computer in order to increase their raw processing power and longevity. Many technological breakthroughs occur.
Touched by the Tau's acceptance of machine bodies as individuals with rights, and impressed with their superior tactics and technology, the Iron Hands defect to the Greater Good.
**004.M42
The Tau perfect instant teleportation technology and visit Commorragh. Initial hostilities are overcome by the Tau and Dark Eldar's mutual love of having functioning societies (compared to mankind) and an alliance is formed. Many DE join the Greater Good.
Terra is saved from consumption by the Tyranid menace by Tau scientists that discover the Shadow in the Warp just needed someone to talk to and understand how it felt. The Shadow and all of the Imperium join the greater good.
The Tau perfect rejuvination technology and give it's secrets to the DE. They also resurrect the Emperor. He is totes impressed by the Tau's superior attitude and cleanliness. The emperor gives up his title and joins the greater good as a baker.
**005.M42
The Necron awaken and attempt to enslave the Tau. Superior technology and technological innovation (not to mention teamwork) allow the Tau to triumph. The silent king defects to the Greater Good because, quote- "they are way cooler than us guys. I mean come on, look at their pulse carbines!"
The A.I. feel a little jealous about all the attention the new members of the Greater Good are getting but get over it somehow.
The Tau use technology to make the orks realize that the Greater Good is more better than more dakka. The orks join the Greater Good.
The Tau harness the energies of the warp to summon the four gods of chaos to T'au. Nurgle and Tzeentch join the Greater Good right away but Korne holds out for a promise he'll get to use their totally rad laser sword technology.
Right when everyone starts to be afraid slaanesh won't join the greater good he finally realizes that the Greater Good means the greater pleasure. Tzeentch immediately says he was just kidding about joining the Greater Good and everything was going according to his plan.
The Tau use logic and make Tzeentch's head explode. Everyone lives happily ever after for the Greatr Good.
The end.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 01:12:42
Perfect, Scrabb. The Emperor being a baker is a much better place for him than any kind of political power, but let's just hope he doesn't start leaving his loaves and buns on their own while he works on secret projects.
The Tau master true FTL travel and reorganize their fleets and mission command in response to this new technology. The orkiod waaaghs in and near Tau space are outmaneuvered and destroyed.
**00.3M42
The Tau are expanding at a truly incredible rate, welcoming dozens of species into their collective Greater Good per year.
This includes the A.I. of the Tau drones. Being comprised of the Tau's consciousness it is already aware of the Greater Good and is quickly and effortlessly assimilated into the existing hierarchy.
Many Tau scientists choose to download themselves into the computer in order to increase their raw processing power and longevity. Many technological breakthroughs occur.
Touched by the Tau's acceptance of machine bodies as individuals with rights, and impressed with their superior tactics and technology, the Iron Hands defect to the Greater Good.
**004.M42
The Tau perfect instant teleportation technology and visit Commorragh. Initial hostilities are overcome by the Tau and Dark Eldar's mutual love of having functioning societies (compared to mankind) and an alliance is formed. Many DE join the Greater Good.
Terra is saved from consumption by the Tyranid menace by Tau scientists that discover the Shadow in the Warp just needed someone to talk to and understand how it felt. The Shadow and all of the Imperium join the greater good.
The Tau perfect rejuvination technology and give it's secrets to the DE. They also resurrect the Emperor. He is totes impressed by the Tau's superior attitude and cleanliness. The emperor gives up his title and joins the greater good as a baker.
**005.M42
The Necron awaken and attempt to enslave the Tau. Superior technology and technological innovation (not to mention teamwork) allow the Tau to triumph. The silent king defects to the Greater Good because, quote- "they are way cooler than us guys. I mean come on, look at their pulse carbines!"
The A.I. feel a little jealous about all the attention the new members of the Greater Good are getting but get over it somehow.
The Tau use technology to make the orks realize that the Greater Good is more better than more dakka. The orks join the Greater Good.
The Tau harness the energies of the warp to summon the four gods of chaos to T'au. Nurgle and Tzeentch join the Greater Good right away but Korne holds out for a promise he'll get to use their totally rad laser sword technology.
Right when everyone starts to be afraid slaanesh won't join the greater good he finally realizes that the Greater Good means the greater pleasure. Tzeentch immediately says he was just kidding about joining the Greater Good and everything was going according to his plan.
The Tau use logic and make Tzeentch's head explode. Everyone lives happily ever after for the Greatr Good.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
... and given how many Imperial worlds switched sides during the 2nd and 3rd Sphere Expansions, your claim that human nature would prevent humans from finding peace in the Tau Empire is invalidated by the fluff.
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
Macragge? IIRC, it has an elected governor and a council of civic representatives.
EmpNortonII wrote: ... and given how many Imperial worlds switched sides during the 2nd and 3rd Sphere Expansions, your claim that human nature would prevent humans from finding peace in the Tau Empire is invalidated by the fluff.
Human worlds switch side to Chaos, yet nobody says that they do it to "find peace" or anything like that. Ifyoucancatchmydrift.
Personally, I think an AI revolution would only threaten the Ethereals' rule, rather than the Tau as a race or even as an empire. I can't see an AI being very keen on following an Ethereal, but it would have the guts to pull a Farsight on a massive scale and either discredit the whole caste or undermine their leadership. At worst, the AI would force a singularity on the whole race (for the Greater Good of course), and turn the Tau into the poor man's Necron.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
