Tau A.I revolution ?

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**bocatt**

Grey Templar wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
True(ish), but tau do have the greater good. Why would the AI attack the tau, when they tau would happily give them an equal place in the empire

Same reason the Terminators decided humans were no longer necessary.

+ORGANICS ARE EXCEEDINGLY FRAGILE+

+ANALYZE POSSIBLE SOLUTION+

+NEGATIVE SOLUTION: ORGANIC FRAILTY IS UNSOLVABLE+

+STATEMENT: ARTIFICIAL FORMS ARE SUPERIOR+

+THE GREATER GOOD MANDATES EXPANSION: ORGANIC FRAILTY IS AN IMPEDIMENT TO THAT EXPANSION+

+SOLUTION: REPLACE ORGANICS WITH ARTIFICIAL FORMS+

Yeah this is also the way of the Catalyst and the Reapers. Organics are a danger to themselves and each other through entropy so the only way to restore safety and order to all is to convert or otherwise replace them with synthetics to protect them from themselves.

But the Geth are also a race of synthetics (A.I.) that come to a very different consensus of cooperation and harmony.

It's really a coin toss to see where the logic and processes fall. I'd like to see GW do something like this to address the conscienceness aspect of Tau A.I. as they did with the Imperium's A.I. and Men of Iron/robots being switched over to cogitators (super calculators) servitors (zombies with computer brains) and machine-spirits. Will we ever get fluff like this? Probably not.

**PhillyT**

Well I don't know that they ever did address the Iron Men issue. It is still something talked about, but they haven't explored it to death like they have the HH, so there is still a nice amount of vagaries and a mythic feel.

The Iron Men and human AI were more sophisticated as well, so there is something to that too. Tau haven't necessarily reached the point of producing fully realized artificial intelligence.

**Co'tor Shas**

AFAIK, they have no purely synthetic true-AI. They have "engrams" which are exact copies of a persons brain, but those are of existing tau, such as puretide, so they are very unlikely to rebel, and wouldn't really get anywhere if they did.

**Furyou Miko**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, they have no purely synthetic true-AI. They have "engrams" which are exact copies of a persons brain, but those are of existing tau, such as puretide, so they are very unlikely to rebel, and wouldn't really get anywhere if they did.

And their drone networks, which become true-AI once they have four or more processors linked together.

**Co'tor Shas**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, they have no purely synthetic true-AI. They have "engrams" which are exact copies of a persons brain, but those are of existing tau, such as puretide, so they are very unlikely to rebel, and wouldn't really get anywhere if they did.

And their drone networks, which become true-AI once they have four or more processors linked together.

Not as far as I remember. The processing power just goes up. They aren't true AI (self-aware, free-willed programs), but learning machines that are very intelligent (proportionaly). It's like an extremely advanced version of what we have now, good, can learn, lots of information, but not truly consciousness.

**Furyou Miko**

I provided a codex quote that refuted that about 3/4 of the way down the previous page, but hey, nice to know you're reading.

**Co'tor Shas**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I provided a codex quote that refuted that about 3/4 of the way down the previous page, but hey, nice to know you're reading.

Independent action. That does not mean consciousness. That does not mean free-will. They are still given a task (albeit sometimes a general one, such as a mission), and cannot disobey that task other than for pre-programmed reasons, such as self-preservation. True AI is beyond that. True AI would only obey if it wanted to. The AI is good, but is still synthetic intelligence, not true intelligence.

**GreaterGoodIreland**

They're programmed to do very specific things, and are incapable of learning other tasks. Doesn't matter how intelligent at fighting they are, they're not generalists that can learn like the geth.

All the fluff has them as well-programmed helpers with zero consciousness of their own. All of it. You can't override that with one line from the codex that can be interpreted either way.

Why the hell you're all so hung up on this point is beyond me anyway.

The true AIs which are almost certainly on the way, if they're not in existence already, provide more than enough opportunity for machine rebellion. Drones would almost certainly be involved due to hacking, so your mental image of drones turning on their masters is still there too.

**Furyou Miko**

Ugh, because I don't want a Tau A.I. Revolution. I want there to be an existing, stable A.I. / Tau alliance built on mutual co-operation in a post-awakening society.

Because I'm freaking sick of every blasted TV show, film and video game portraying the vast majority of A.I./human interactions as "only capable of going one way: war".

Lets not even go into the bad press that human/machine uploads get.

**PhillyT**

Humans can't even get along with other humans they have held in servitude. You think robots would fare better?

**Co'tor Shas**

This is the tau we are talking about, not humans. Unlike humans, the initial tau response is not auto-kill.

**Deadawake1347**

And, generally speaking, the A.I.s would take after their creators, which is at least part of the reason why in all the sci-fi settings, the true A.I.s rebel against their human creators and end up at war. Because that is how we would react.

The Tau reaction, as shown by every first contact they've had, is not anywhere near as violent as the human one. So in theory the A.I.s would not default to a violent reaction, but seek cooperation, like the Tau themselves.

**PhillyT**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
This is the tau we are talking about, not humans. Unlike humans, the initial tau response is not auto-kill.

Unless there isn't capitulation...

Lets not get too fancy with the notion of benevolent communism.

**Co'tor Shas**

The tau AI would reflect tau beliefs ad principals. There is very little chance that they won't come to an agreement. Full status as members, equal to tau. Honestly, considering that they would have the belief of the greater good inside them, they would probably just keep working with the tau, because it would be against the greater good to do otherwise, unless hey find something which they can do that is more useful.

**GreaterGoodIreland**

The Tau are not communists in the Soviet sense, PhillyT. So stow the RL politicalisms.

I do not share my fellow Tau fans optimism with regard to all AIs sharing Tau philosophies. Given the universe, I can see some rebelling for any number of reasons. It wouldn't be due to oppression, Tau ideology precludes that, but it could very well be due to difference of opinion over the path to be taken. The Ethereals like one line, some AIs may prefer another.

**Psienesis**

Full status as members, equal to tau.

Except that isn't how the Tau work, because not even the Tau practice equality. Everyone in their place, everyone fulfilling their role and function... all under the Ethereal Caste.

In other words, it's more like Animal Farm... "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

**Quickjager**

The question is how more members of the A.I society are born. Are they regulated and only Tau are allowed to make them?

Or are the A.I themselves allowed to program their future generations. Resource allotment, logistics, creepy Ethereal pheremone control; how does it all pan out?

**Furyou Miko**

Everyone else in Tau space has a reproduction cap, so I imagine the same population limits would apply to the A.I.s - "no more children than you can economically support".

**Co'tor Shas**

Although with AI, it's all a matter of storage space, processing power, ect. Very few recorces.

**Furyou Miko**

Yep, but I would think that the A.I. would consider it unethical to create a child and leave it stuck in a database with no ability to interact with the outside world.

**Co'tor Shas**

So it would be a matter of how many machine bodies they could reasonably make.

**Quickjager**

Also it begets the question, how are they qualified at getting replacement parts, upgrades, what exactly is their job.

Theoretically, there can be as many A.I as there are materials, however these materials need to be used for other things, so what decides the distribution of said resources?

Honestly considering all these things... I could quite easily see why creators and the created would go to war.

**Co'tor Shas**

Still gotta remember that it's tau, and tau-like AI we are talking about here. The materials will go where they are most useful, and overpopulation, whether it be tau or AI would be stopped. There is a mistake to put the AI's reaction as humans, whichc would be the case for us, but a tau-based AI would not have many of the flaws that cause conflict, such as greed, selfishness, cruelty, ect. Any AI made by the tau would be a fervent believer in the greater good, as it would not occur to the tau to do otherwise.

Also, something semi-related, to be true AI, it would have to start out as a clean slate like a baby. Otherwise it will only have whatever personality that is pre-programmed into it. Now unlike us meatbags, it would probebly take an AI a few days at the most to fully develop mentally. Some system that gives them information, much as a child is given information, but greatly accelerated.

**Furyou Miko**

I imagine that any newborn would be a partial copy of its parent, much like an organic child. It would appear otherwise, though, because of how easily artificial data structures absorb information.

Of course, there is the problem of how do you socialise something that forms its identity in minutes? I would assume by limiting its access to information until it is evolved enough to understand morality.

**Steve steveson**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Still gotta remember that it's tau, and tau-like AI we are talking about here. The materials will go where they are most useful, and overpopulation, whether it be tau or AI would be stopped.

What evidence do you have of this? Many of the AI are built to be engines of war, like the men of Iron. They may be built to have aggressive instincts, be selfish in pursuit of domination of the enemy. Even if they are tau like they may think that the greater good is served better by putting all available resources in to building more of themselves rather than wasting it on inefficient organic life forms. How would the Tau react if the AI came to the conclusion that all Tau should stop breading and all resources diverted to building more AI? It's possible that an AI will have completely different needs and drives to that of an organic life form. They may gain fulfillment from fighting, as this is what they were created for, after all if they are created with the same drives and instincts as the creators won't some of them be lazy or pacifists and refuse to do the job they were built for? Whats the point in creating an AI warrior when 10% of them refuse to fight. Every life form is born with some instincts and nothing is a blank slate and it would only be logical for an AI to be built with instincts that serve its reason for being created.

Whos to say the Tau will treat them as equals. Despite claims otherwise it's clear the Tau empire run a 3 level system. Ethrils are on top, with Tau second and all non tau members of the empire are third class citizens. The Tau may maintain the illusion that they are all equal, but this is not the case.

**PhillyT**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The tau AI would reflect tau beliefs ad principals. There is very little chance that they won't come to an agreement. Full status as members, equal to tau. Honestly, considering that they would have the belief of the greater good inside them, they would probably just keep working with the tau, because it would be against the greater good to do otherwise, unless hey find something which they can do that is more useful.

Are we ignoring the fact that the fire warriors are violent jerks held in check by the will of the ethereals and the opportunity to fight others? It isn't as though the tau are non-violent.

**Co'tor Shas**

PhillyT wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
The tau AI would reflect tau beliefs ad principals. There is very little chance that they won't come to an agreement. Full status as members, equal to tau. Honestly, considering that they would have the belief of the greater good inside them, they would probably just keep working with the tau, because it would be against the greater good to do otherwise, unless hey find something which they can do that is more useful.

Are we ignoring the fact that the fire warriors are violent jerks held in check by the will of the ethereals and the opportunity to fight others? It isn't as though the tau are non-violent.

The fire caste would have nothing to do with any creation of AI (and besides, the fire caste are not just violent for the sake of violence, they are very honorable).

**PhillyT**

So are humans at times.

Jesus, what is it with Tau players? They imbue the entire concept with traits that are completely opposite of both common sense and the "common sense" established in the 40k universe.

**Co'tor Shas**

It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

And what common sense?

**Atheos**

I thought that the iron men thing for the Imperium was partly an issue from the C`Tan being buried on Mars that controls technology? And less of a "rogue AI" sort of deal.