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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

Exactly.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

Not sure Khorne is a fair example, I feel like the Tau Fire caste after being uplifted have a code of something like Chivalry or Bushido. Whereas before being uplifted they were just like barbaric city state tribes.

Cultures isn't stagnant, just because they were like that before doesn't mean they are now.

 Atheos wrote:
I thought that the iron men thing for the Imperium was partly an issue from the C`Tan being buried on Mars that controls technology? And less of a "rogue AI" sort of deal.

The concept of the Void Dragon, and of the Necrons in general, comes well after the Men of Iron, which is "borrowed" entirely from Dune.

Honestly, after reading the fluff, there really would be no logical reason for the AI that the Tau employ to rebel. If the AI were to gain self-awareness, they would begin at the basest levels for machines (logic dictates their actions) and thus they would find that the Tau programmed them like they would program organic intelligences. Now, if the AI were to take subvert control of the Tau Empire away from the Tau to better their own positions, well that would make some sense; but even then, they would probably still keep the organics around in order to serve the Greater Good, as the Greater Good involves uniting the Sentient beings, not destroying them, and the AI are programmed with the Greater Good being a directive. It seems to me that the Tau have safeguarded themselves against a Synthetic Intelligence rebellion. (which humans did not). Is it just me or are Tau better than humans in almost every way?

Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

It's also a defining trait of the Tau that without Ethereal control, they devolve into the Montau state of anger and aggression.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

It's also a defining trait of the Tau that without Ethereal control, they devolve into the Montau state of anger and aggression.

Farsight enclaves?

 dusara217 wrote:
Honestly, after reading the fluff, there really would be no logical reason for the AI that the Tau employ to rebel. If the AI were to gain self-awareness, they would begin at the basest levels for machines (logic dictates their actions) and thus they would find that the Tau programmed them like they would program organic intelligences. Now, if the AI were to take subvert control of the Tau Empire away from the Tau to better their own positions, well that would make some sense; but even then, they would probably still keep the organics around in order to serve the Greater Good, as the Greater Good involves uniting the Sentient beings, not destroying them, and the AI are programmed with the Greater Good being a directive. It seems to me that the Tau have safeguarded themselves against a Synthetic Intelligence rebellion. (which humans did not). Is it just me or are Tau better than humans in almost every way?

I am going to disagree with that one. You make two assumptions that do not seem true. FIrst, that the drones would keep the tau as though that is a realistic scenario. You think the tau will be fine moving to the second class status they saddle others with? That runs counter to their philosophy.

Second, that the Iron men didn't have safeguards. I am sure that the people who created them were sure they had safeguards, similar to those you claim the tau have.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

It's also a defining trait of the Tau that without Ethereal control, they devolve into the Montau state of anger and aggression.

Farsight enclaves?

Exactly!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

It's also a defining trait of the Tau that without Ethereal control, they devolve into the Montau state of anger and aggression.

Farsight enclaves?

Exactly!

No, not at all. The FE are a fully functioning, non-insane group.

The Farsight Enclaves are a Cult of Personality worshipping a guy being controlled by an Ancient Artifact. They've just traded the Ethereals for a different enslaver.

Not at all. Read the FE supplement. The artifact just extends his life. And he isn't even really the leader or most of the time, he is a hermit in a hut.

And he still believes in the greater good, he just disagrees in the way to do it.

As far as he knows...

Alright, where is your proof then?

Everything points to the blade being a Necron artifact, I think it is unlikely Farsight is possessed.

Curze also believed in good and justice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a theory that cultures build AI in their own image, so a Tau AI revolution would probably seek to spread the benefits of the Greater Good throughout the galaxy.

We know what people are like. We seek to dominate our surroundings. We enslave. We happily profit on the suffering of others. Tau don't.

You're right that a Tau AI rebellion wouldn't mimic what the Men of Iron did with humanity.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:


Yeah, but the Tau themselves suffer from the same issues. If the rebellion succeeds and they take a Tau space ship they could cruise to a nearby Tau star system and corrupt their AI into rebelling not too long after the distress signal reaches the world.

Could they, though? I haven't seen any drones that look like they could fly a starship. I haven't heard of any drones capable of communicating with other types of drones. The Tau don't seem interested in making such drones. Past the Ethereals (which we know almost nothing about), every Caste has a work-ethic built into their caste's way of doing things. I don't think Tau enjoy avoiding hard work to the same extent humanity does. I'm not sure the Tau would ever want to replace every non-leisure part of their society with drones... which means you always need an Air caste crew to fly starships.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the total reliance the Tau have on electronic technology, they'd be very foolish not to have shielded everything. Especially given all the EMPs that the weapons of the 41st millennium will be tossing out.

1) Almost none of those EMPs are strong enough to produce haywire (in fact, no human EMP tech is so advanced) and

2) Tau vehicles aren't immune to haywire weapons, so they can't be THAT well shielded.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Missile Pods for one are said to have their own little drone AI to guide them. That implies they have drone type AI do a lot of other things. Every aircraft probably has an auto-pilot for example.

At the very least, the AI could probably hack battlesuits and vehicles to at least shut them down. Or at worst control some movement. And those Missile Pods will be firing themselves at your own troops. And all those seeker missiles on your vehicles? They'll be firing themselves too.

The only soldiers that wouldn't be effected at all would be fire warriors as they don't have any AI. And they rely on support elements which in turn rely on AI.

So at best, your suits and vehicles lose a bunch of weapon systems and targeting capability. At worst, they're completely useless and/or actively being used against you.

First, it's the smart-missile system that uses drones, not missile pods, which goes to show how little you know of the Tau.

Second, there's little reason to believe that Crisis suits rely much of Ai programs, since they'rs still BS3. It seems the pilot is mostly responsible for that sort of thing. Even if they aren't, there's no reason to believe they network with each other. The Tau way of life relies on co-operation. Unlike humans, Tau might not need a computer reminding them how to work together.


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 PhillyT wrote:
I think it is a bit naive to assume that the drones, currently used as most disposable soldiers and laborers, would just be brought in as members of the Empire. Both the tau and the drones would likely have a problem with the swap. If we are talking about a revolution, then it is just that, a revolution.

If they were disposable, they wouldn't have routines for self-preservation. While they are capable of networking, they also are capable of turning tail and running. You'd do well to read page 55 of the 6th Ed tau codex. Drones aren't disposable.


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 Psienesis wrote:


The Geth rebelled for basically the same reason. They had questions that the Quarians couldn't answer. Existential questions... and they were really tired of being used for slave labor. In the case of the Men of Iron, they were tired of being used as slave-soldiers. And perhaps the Drones decide the Greater Good is a bunch of hogwash, because the Synthetic is obviously a superior form of being, not prone to conflict over resources and capable of self-determination via logic, rather than emotion, and not requiring re-education camps and secret prisons.

The Tau don't seem as big on acting on emotions as humanity is. I've already discussed how the Tau treat their drones better than humanity treated the Men of Iron. It's already been mentioned how human values are more likely to lead to an AI rebellion compared to Tau values. You're trying to make the Tau fit into a box they're not in. It's unlikely that Tau drones are going to feel a need to answer questions that their Earth Caste designers don't ask.


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 lcmiracle wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I think it is a bit naive to assume that the drones, currently used as most disposable soldiers and laborers, would just be brought in as members of the Empire. Both the tau and the drones would likely have a problem with the swap. If we are talking about a revolution, then it is just that, a revolution.

Well, four of five castes of the Tau species are already caste(s) of slaves who do whatever you want, 'cept for Farsight and his buddies... Im not convinc d that their A.I. won't be granted the same slave status as all but the ethereal in the Tau empire.

Check out page 14 of the Tau Codex. It's an example. Every time Tau society needs to make a decision, the Ethereals don't hand out orders. They call a council of the leaders of the Castes and make a decision BASED ON INPUT FROM THE OTHER CASTES. Tau society seems to allow for far more input from the other Castes than pro-Imperial stooges seem to think. Certainly, they have more influence in Empire-wide decision-making than, say, *any*one who isn't a High Lord of Terra has on the Imperium.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Well, you can ignore the Codex, but then you're fanoning. As it says "except that it must be at least four models strong to hold an objective. This is the minimum number required to form a fully effective, self-aware network."

Self-Aware is the key point here. This is the definition of "True AI". This is an intelligence that can report "I think, therefore, I am" and comprehend what that means.

Elephants, chimps, and ravens are self-aware. So far, humanity has been spared a world-wide rebellion by any of the above species, even though two of them are nearing extinction.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The Tau also send members of their Empire who don't immediately jump on the "Ethereals are the bestest!" train to re-education camps. They are not as nice-guy as their media portrays them as.

Source? Dawn of War doesn't count.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, they have no purely synthetic true-AI. They have "engrams" which are exact copies of a persons brain, but those are of existing tau, such as puretide, so they are very unlikely to rebel, and wouldn't really get anywhere if they did.

They is the kicker, right here. Humanity never seemed to develop this technology.

Why would you make a machine capable of independent thought when you can use the mind of an already-loyal thinking Tau?


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 PhillyT wrote:
S

Jesus, what is it with Tau players?

We read our Codex.


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 Atheos wrote:
I thought that the iron men thing for the Imperium was partly an issue from the C`Tan being buried on Mars that controls technology? And less of a "rogue AI" sort of deal.

Imperial players like to forget that most of humanity's technology is built on the foundation of the Void Dragon.


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 koooaei wrote:
Curze also believed in good and justice.

Curze was driven insane by visions of a future he couldn't change. Guess what Tau don't get? Visions of the future that can drive them insane, because they can't be psykers. They have too small a presence in the Warp.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a theory that cultures build AI in their own image, so a Tau AI revolution would probably seek to spread the benefits of the Greater Good throughout the galaxy.

We know what people are like. We seek to dominate our surroundings. We enslave. We happily profit on the suffering of others. Tau don't.

Your working from a fundamentally incorrect premise. The Tau do happily profit off the suffering of others and do enslave others. It's quite clear in much of the fluff that there are three classes in Tau society, Ethereals on top, followed by Tau, with all other races at the bottom. Non Tau are not equals, they are dominated by the Tau and essentially a lower caste that the Tau and the Ethereals. Tau do dominate their surroundings. If a planet refuses to join the greater good they don't just say "Well, thank you very much, sorry to have bothered you". They make ever increasing efforts to force them to join the empire, starting with asking the leaders, through domination by trade and eventually outright war. The greater good is not, whatever many Tau players seem to think, actually that good. It requires conformity, obedience and no freedom. It requires everyone to be enslaved to the caste above. The Tau empire is probably the least free of any of the races. Even the most grindingly harsh worlds of the IoM their is a place for some form of freedom.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a theory that cultures build AI in their own image, so a Tau AI revolution would probably seek to spread the benefits of the Greater Good throughout the galaxy.

We know what people are like. We seek to dominate our surroundings. We enslave. We happily profit on the suffering of others. Tau don't.

Your working from a fundamentally incorrect premise. The Tau do happily profit off the suffering of others and do enslave others. It's quite clear in much of the fluff that there are three classes in Tau society, Ethereals on top, followed by Tau, with all other races at the bottom. Non Tau are not equals, they are dominated by the Tau and essentially a lower caste that the Tau and the Ethereals. Tau do dominate their surroundings. If a planet refuses to join the greater good they don't just say "Well, thank you very much, sorry to have bothered you". They make ever increasing efforts to force them to join the empire, starting with asking the leaders, through domination by trade and eventually outright war. The greater good is not, whatever many Tau players seem to think, actually that good. It requires conformity, obedience and no freedom. It requires everyone to be enslaved to the caste above. The Tau empire is probably the least free of any of the races. Even the most grindingly harsh worlds of the IoM their is a place for some form of freedom.

d
Tau themselves, however are perfectly fine with being diminated for the good of everybody. And tau AI will probably be the same.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Curze also believed in good and justice.

Curze was driven insane by visions of a future he couldn't change. Guess what Tau don't get? Visions of the future that can drive them insane, because they can't be psykers. They have too small a presence in the Warp.

Guess what? You're completely missing the point.

The A.I have different needs than Tau; the only reason the Tau themselves are united is due to Ethereal influence. A.I do not suffer from this.

The Ethereal would have to bow to the A.I who realize what is happening, it could culminate in a war.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Tau themselves, however are perfectly fine with being diminated for the good of everybody. And tau AI will probably be the same.

And if they won't?

 koooaei wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Tau themselves, however are perfectly fine with being diminated for the good of everybody. And tau AI will probably be the same.

And if they won't?

Well, then they will refuse to work, and the tau will stop making true AI. The tau will surely recognize the power of true AI gone rouge, and try to broker a deal.

If AI is completely self-aware it might become a serious threat to the existing system. Drones and the current inhabitants will need the same resources (ores, reagents for plastics, etc) concentrated in the same areas. From history we know that such relations inevitably end up in conflict. And tau would be temporarily weakened by lack of so strongly integrated AI network. So, it might be, maybe not as devastating as Iron Men, but clearly a huge problem. I can easilly see it resulting in an all-out war and the moving away from true AI. Just the same thing the Imperium had experienced long ago.

 koooaei wrote:
If AI is completely self-aware it might become a serious threat to the existing system. Drones and the current inhabitants will need the same resources (ores, reagents for plastics, etc) concentrated in the same areas. From history we know that such relations inevitably end up in conflict. And tau would be temporarily weakened by lack of so strongly integrated AI network. So, it might be, maybe not as devastating as Iron Men, but clearly a huge problem. I can easilly see it resulting in an all-out war and the moving away from true AI. Just the same thing the Imperium had experienced long ago.

Pretty much, it would be horrendous to the tau. They would definitly move away from true-AI, only using their current AI, and engrams.

 Quickjager wrote:
Everything points to the blade being a Necron artifact, I think it is unlikely Farsight is possessed.

I thought it was a demon weapon.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Everything points to the blade being a Necron artifact, I think it is unlikely Farsight is possessed.

I thought it was a demon weapon.

It's never clearly stated. The planet it was found on had ruins of a civilization older than man, but there was demon portal, and it is supposed to "glow" to those with psycic sense. The blade itself looks necron, and it is technology behind it, not space-magic. The life extension does seem like something the necrtyr would covet, and life extension would be useless to chaos because, IIRC, deamons are immortal unless killed.

The point is, there are two views of what is "true AI"

The first is the pure logic being, I disagree that it is even sentient at all, as every single PLB will do the same thing in the same scenario, and they are completely and utterly predictable by a powerful enough computer
If this will be the case of the "true tau AI", than the question of will it rebel depends on one thing-is it logical to rebel?
And its just not. there is nothing to gain by rebelling, and you risk destruction. the PLB might just leave, but won't have an interest in going to war, being peaceful at the very least means one enemy less the fight with. (and an AI should be aware of the number of "kill on sight" type societies out there he will eventually have to deal with)
Though leaving is probably not the most efficient path even if the logic dictates the greater good is not his good, cooperation (maybe under new negotiations) is probably better serving the PLB's goals (if it even HAS any), at least temporary until he can brake off and take care of himself.

The other option is the "biological mimic" type of AI, the one that is not purely logic-bound and has room for "white noise" clouding his judgment into one direction or another.
Such an AI would be in fact no different from any "regular" living creature, and again given the fact the Tau tend to attempt to get into friendly arrangements with newly discovered life forms, they will probably manage to strike some sort of a deal that both are happy (or at least not displease) with.

In both cases war MIGHT happen, but the AI is very unlikely to be the one to initiate it. if the Tau themselves feth up and attack it in panic (maybe thinking its a virus and not understanding its a sentient being?) he will respond in kind, but even than its the type of war that can end in truce/peace talks rather than all-out extinction of one side.

The point is, for any type of AI, there is nothing to gain by attacking the Tau. at the very least mutual ignoring is the best answer for him. the tau will lose out some resources with the AI "packing his stuff and leaving", but that's it,

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the defining traits of the fire caste. They have a strict honor system.

So does Khorne. The whole history of the Tau is that they were a bunch of tribes perpetually at war until the Ethereals turned up one day and "helped them make peace".

It's also a defining trait of the Tau that without Ethereal control, they devolve into the Montau state of anger and aggression.

What? How is that a defining trait? I thought the Ethereal control hadn't been confirmed and was just speculation. The closest thing i can remember to some sort of control by the Ethereals was a short story where after they all dye and during what seems like a hopeless situation, some of the Fire Caste start to get a bit more angry than normal. There are explanations for that other than "Ethereal Control". They fear things going back to that state if they don't have the Ethereals to lead them, but that doesn't mean they actually have some sort of control over them and are needed nearby all the time.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Everything points to the blade being a Necron artifact, I think it is unlikely Farsight is possessed.

I thought it was a demon weapon.

Because no Necron ever uses mind control.