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IoM is on many planets in medival era, they even do the old shool wich hunts.Tau come and enliht them,its sure a better way of living.
Also Macragge still is under rule of Tera , but is noted that if tera falls macragge is tera no.2 so its logical have a same wat of Lords nad and "eclected govenor"(i dont think that are real political partires there as many woul just named "heresy"
lasty, chaos many times can give for short terms a better hope and change to the citizen
AI revolt can happen in most possible way by problem (or hack) in softwere with can be fixed in a next pach ( remeber that at least the 10% of the Empire would work on that as earth caste)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 19:47:39
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
... and given how many Imperial worlds switched sides during the 2nd and 3rd Sphere Expansions, your claim that human nature would prevent humans from finding peace in the Tau Empire is invalidated by the fluff.
There are any number of government types, representing the scope of human government. It has been stated in the BRB and several other sources and is in keeping with the wide open fluff of GW.
As far as the 2nd and 3rd expansions, in most cases it was a case of having no choice. Some gave up because they didn't have any other choice. But that wasn't the discussion that was being had, it was the claim that humans would prefer living under Tau rulers. Humans aren't going to chose it if they have a choice, which was also illustrated during those expansions.
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
Macragge? IIRC, it has an elected governor and a council of civic representatives.
It remains the firm seat of the Realm of Ultramar, ruled by the Ultramarines Chapter Master who serves as the world's Planetary Governor under the title of Lord Macragge and the Lord of Ultramar.
Macragge *had* a republic until Rowboat Girlyman crushed it.
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
... and given how many Imperial worlds switched sides during the 2nd and 3rd Sphere Expansions, your claim that human nature would prevent humans from finding peace in the Tau Empire is invalidated by the fluff.
There are any number of government types, representing the scope of human government. It has been stated in the BRB and several other sources and is in keeping with the wide open fluff of GW.
Sorry. That's not good enough. Wishful thinking does not make something true.
The 40k literature covers dozens, if not hundreds, of planets. The only suggested name so far is a republic that was overthrown even before its conqueror was part of the Imperium.
Try again, guys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/26 07:54:46
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
Macragge? IIRC, it has an elected governor and a council of civic representatives.
It remains the firm seat of the Realm of Ultramar, ruled by the Ultramarines Chapter Master who serves as the world's Planetary Governor under the title of Lord Macragge and the Lord of Ultramar.
Macragge *had* a republic until Rowboat Girlyman crushed it.
Oh, then it is even better, because you have your democracy but not the corruption, incompetence, and populism because Mr. Leader-o-Perfect is at the helm. Okay, I'm kinda-sorta fine with this.
Emp, you ignore the general fluff of GW yet again to support your own position. They say again and again that all manner of lifestyles exist on the millions of imperial worlds.
If you want a specific example, Tanith. There. Now move onto something more substantive.
There are definitly worlds that act like democracies, but it would be a bit like a state in the US. The rule their own, but they can't do anything that terra has told them not to. A very restricted democracy, and knowing the imperium, probably riddled with corruption, because it has to be grimdark .
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
A world can do whatever it wants as long as it pays its tithe, doesn't deal with Xenos too much, and keeps heretics at bay. It is more like a country on earth than a state since it has full autonomy as long as it doesn't violate a few international laws.
Well, countries can disobey stuff like that with impunity, so not so meuch, but the level of freedom is about there. Maybe something like and EU country.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
PhillyT wrote: The scope of human government spans all forms of government and relative time periods. Huge segments of humanity live equal or better lives than the majority of humans on present day earth.
The idea that being slaves to Aliens would be preferable ignores the basic human condition.
Name one world with a liberal democracy in the 40k Universe. There are untold millions of worlds, surely you can name one.
Macragge? IIRC, it has an elected governor and a council of civic representatives.
It remains the firm seat of the Realm of Ultramar, ruled by the Ultramarines Chapter Master who serves as the world's Planetary Governor under the title of Lord Macragge and the Lord of Ultramar.
Macragge *had* a republic until Rowboat Girlyman crushed it.
Oh, then it is even better, because you have your democracy but not the corruption, incompetence, and populism because Mr. Leader-o-Perfect is at the helm. Okay, I'm kinda-sorta fine with this.
"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally – either directly or, through elected representatives, indirectly – in the proposal, development and establishment of the laws by which their society is run."
If by "democracy" you actually mean "dictatorship" then yes, you'd be correct.
No one elected Calgar.
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PhillyT wrote: Emp, you ignore the general fluff of GW yet again to support your own position. They say again and again that all manner of lifestyles exist on the millions of imperial worlds.
If you want a specific example, Tanith. There. Now move onto something more substantive.
From the wiki
The capital city of Tanith -- surrounded by a giant wall, presumably to keep the nalwood trees from moving into the city -- is Tanith Magna. The world is governed by an Elector, and the main governmental building appears to be the Assembly (although Rawne mentions a place called the Elector's Palace when hypnotised on Monthax). It is unclear as to whether or not the Elector is elected as the title sounds, or if it is an inherited position like a king. Tanith is split up into counties, not unlike Ireland (Counties Pryze and Cuhulic are mentioned). Each city on Tanith has a Militia, from which a number of members of the Tanith First and Only were drafted into the Imperial Guard. Tanith's native wildlife include larisel, small animals hunted by woodsmen -- presumably for food -- and shoggy; small amphibian creatures with bulging eyes that dwell by woodland pools in Tanith's forests.
Try again. GW's fluff doesn't include any actual democracies, just a vague hint that in the untold mollions of worlds, there might be one or two. MIGHT.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/26 19:27:54
If by "democracy" you actually mean "dictatorship" then yes, you'd be correct.
No one elected Calgar.
Try again. GW's fluff doesn't include any actual democracies, just a vague hint that in the untold mollions of worlds, there might be one or two. MIGHT.
NO Big E elected him also it CANT be a democracy, a real one at least (in papers it might be hundrens) i mean : ok lets a have heresy frindly political pary partysipate in elections? In IoM most thinks are Heresy
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its possible for citizens to democratically elect their local planetary officers. Sure, they don't have a say in the High Lords elections, but that doesn't take away the fact they can have a local democracy.
Especially since the Imperium doesn't do much at all on the local level. For most people, they have no contact whatsoever with their government beyond planet wide governance. The planetary governor might not even have contact with the Imperium for decades or even centuries at a time.
The Planetary Governor is given total control over his system, he is as free to be a brutal dictator(certainly the most common approach) or to be hands off and literally do almost nothing and leave the daily affairs in the hands of the local government.
Democracies definitely exist within the Imperium on a local level. The Imperium itself is a dictatorship, but that doesn't preclude democracy at the local level.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
And quoting fluff that supports the notion that elected officials exist in the Imperium...
Tanith overthrew a previous government and instituted a free society. Whether that lasted long or not is irrelevant. It is proof that it has happened and can happen, which matches with what the designers have always said.
Emp, you are a speaker of nonsense and for whatever reason people keep feeding you despite your inability to realistically have a conversation that isn't constantly dancing along the absurd.
"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally – either directly or, through elected representatives, indirectly – in the proposal, development and establishment of the laws by which their society is run."
If by "democracy" you actually mean "dictatorship" then yes, you'd be correct.
No one elected Calgar.
No one elected ethereals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 04:38:02
"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally – either directly or, through elected representatives, indirectly – in the proposal, development and establishment of the laws by which their society is run."
If by "democracy" you actually mean "dictatorship" then yes, you'd be correct.
No one elected Calgar.
No one elected ethereals.
Nope. No one elected them.
Of course, the Ethereals ask for guidance from those they "rule."
Do the High Lords of Terra?
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PhillyT wrote: And quoting fluff that supports the notion that elected officials exist in the Imperium...
Tanith overthrew a previous government and instituted a free society. Whether that lasted long or not is irrelevant. It is proof that it has happened and can happen, which matches with what the designers have always said.
Emp, you are a speaker of nonsense and for whatever reason people keep feeding you despite your inability to realistically have a conversation that isn't constantly dancing along the absurd.
Actually, the fluff seems to indicate that Tanith may or may not have held elections. There's no proof. You'd cite a source if you could. The difference between yourself and myself if that I try and cite sources. Books prove what I say, and I point out which books and what pages say it. You just offer wishful thinking.
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Grey Templar wrote: Its possible for citizens to democratically elect their local planetary officers. Sure, they don't have a say in the High Lords elections, but that doesn't take away the fact they can have a local democracy.
Especially since the Imperium doesn't do much at all on the local level. For most people, they have no contact whatsoever with their government beyond planet wide governance. The planetary governor might not even have contact with the Imperium for decades or even centuries at a time.
The Planetary Governor is given total control over his system, he is as free to be a brutal dictator(certainly the most common approach) or to be hands off and literally do almost nothing and leave the daily affairs in the hands of the local government.
Democracies definitely exist within the Imperium on a local level. The Imperium itself is a dictatorship, but that doesn't preclude democracy at the local level.
Name one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/27 05:27:47
A crowd of scouts and tactical marines: OK, let's vote...73 out of 102 votes goes to Calgar go and try to headbutt the swarmlord to be a hero and stuff.
Calgar: Darn...
A crowd of scouts and tactical marines: OK, let's vote...73 out of 102 votes goes to Calgar go and try to headbutt the swarmlord to be a hero and stuff.
Calgar: Darn...
The circumstances of birth determine who and what you are in the Imperium.
Not true.
Supreme commander of Cadia was a no-name orphant.
Name even one kroot, human or vespid that commands tau fire caste.
Spoiler:
BTW, you're a somewhat fine demagogue Precicely following the main rules. Ignoring statements that clearly contradict your point that are impossible to deny. Need a bit more practice to be decent though. Need to work on the evasion techniques.
Name one Fire Caste who commands Kroot, humans, or Vespid... excepting the Supreme Commander of all forces. You know, the Tau equivalent to the Lord Commandant Miltant commanding the Imperial Guard.
Creed only became Supreme Commander after Abaddon killed everyone else better suited to the job. I'm not sure "The Imperium promotes orphans when their other options are dead" is an inspiring, egalitarian message.
Creed only became Supreme Commander after Abaddon killed everyone else better suited to the job. I'm not sure "The Imperium promotes orphans when their other options are dead" is an inspiring, egalitarian message.
Creed only became Supreme Commander after Abaddon killed everyone else better suited to the job. I'm not sure "The Imperium promotes orphans when their other options are dead" is an inspiring, egalitarian message.
You're making things up.
Wrong.
In 999.M41, Creed was raised to the rank of Lord Castellan after a successful plot to assassinate the Cadian Governor Primus and Lord Castellan, Marus Porelska, and much of his High Command was carried out at the Battle of Tyrok Fields during the 13th Black Crusade by the traitorous Volscani Cataphract regiments of the Imperial Guard.
Creed only became Supreme Commander after Abaddon killed everyone else better suited to the job. I'm not sure "The Imperium promotes orphans when their other options are dead" is an inspiring, egalitarian message.
You're making things up.
Wrong.
In 999.M41, Creed was raised to the rank of Lord Castellan after a successful plot to assassinate the Cadian Governor Primus and Lord Castellan, Marus Porelska, and much of his High Command was carried out at the Battle of Tyrok Fields during the 13th Black Crusade by the traitorous Volscani Cataphract regiments of the Imperial Guard.
There were plenty of other noble competitors. Yet, Creed was chosen as the most suited - not by the right of birth but his abilities. Thus, you're making things up.
And how will you comment on tau racism?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/27 08:20:54
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.
Quickjager wrote: Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.
We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.
koooaei wrote: So?.. Your statement needs a logical conclusion.
The circumstances of birth determine who and what you are in the Imperium.
A human born in the Tau Empire is more capable of self-determination.
Actually, even the Tau has problems with self-determination and self-improvement because of the Greater Good philosophy actively discourages anything "self-". In the last few Tau novels, Shadowsun of all people jumps from identity crisis to identity crisis because of this. Oh, and she also loses a battle because she can't get a break for her own thoughts.
( remeber that at least the 10% of the Empire would work on that as earth caste)
14000 points 
Precicely following the main rules. Ignoring statements that clearly contradict your point that are impossible to deny. Need a bit more practice to be decent though. Need to work on the evasion techniques.
