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 koooaei wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.

We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.

It's not really "can't command unless you're a Tau", it's you can't command unless you're part of the Fire Caste (or an Ethereal). Kroot and the other races allied with the Tau don't get to command because they aren't part of the Fire Caste. They're fighting with the Tau but they aren't really a direct part of their military; they're Auxiliaries that only have a support role. The Air, Water and Earth Caste don't get to command them either.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.

We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.

It's not really "can't command unless you're a Tau", it's you can't command unless you're part of the Fire Caste (or an Ethereal). Kroot and the other races allied with the Tau don't get to command because they aren't part of the Fire Caste. They're fighting with the Tau but they aren't really a direct part of their military; they're Auxiliaries that only have a support role. The Air, Water and Earth Caste don't get to command them either.

Do the tau choose themselves which caste they want to be and can they change it throughout the lifetime?

Air, Water and Earth Caste aren't even present on the field as infantry so of course they wouldn't be able to command.

And what about the freedom of choice? Any info on this?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally – either directly or, through elected representatives, indirectly – in the proposal, development and establishment of the laws by which their society is run."

If by "democracy" you actually mean "dictatorship" then yes, you'd be correct.

No one elected Calgar.

No one elected ethereals.

Nope. No one elected them.

Of course, the Ethereals ask for guidance from those they "rule."

Do the High Lords of Terra?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
And quoting fluff that supports the notion that elected officials exist in the Imperium...

Tanith overthrew a previous government and instituted a free society. Whether that lasted long or not is irrelevant. It is proof that it has happened and can happen, which matches with what the designers have always said.

Emp, you are a speaker of nonsense and for whatever reason people keep feeding you despite your inability to realistically have a conversation that isn't constantly dancing along the absurd.

Actually, the fluff seems to indicate that Tanith may or may not have held elections. There's no proof. You'd cite a source if you could. The difference between yourself and myself if that I try and cite sources. Books prove what I say, and I point out which books and what pages say it. You just offer wishful thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its possible for citizens to democratically elect their local planetary officers. Sure, they don't have a say in the High Lords elections, but that doesn't take away the fact they can have a local democracy.

Especially since the Imperium doesn't do much at all on the local level. For most people, they have no contact whatsoever with their government beyond planet wide governance. The planetary governor might not even have contact with the Imperium for decades or even centuries at a time.

The Planetary Governor is given total control over his system, he is as free to be a brutal dictator(certainly the most common approach) or to be hands off and literally do almost nothing and leave the daily affairs in the hands of the local government.

Democracies definitely exist within the Imperium on a local level. The Imperium itself is a dictatorship, but that doesn't preclude democracy at the local level.

Name one.

Tanith. The fluff points to them overthrowing the previous government and establishing a new free society. The term Elector, which came later, may be appointed or elected, but it is known that Tanith was a free society at one point.

And again, the designers themselves have said that any concept of society can be reflected in the galaxy. You can ignore and cherry pick, present your interpretation of Tau and Imperial fluff in your own myopic way, but you do so by ignoring the validity of others doing the same or the statements by the people who actually wrote the fluff which conflict with your proclamations.

 koooaei wrote:
And what about the freedom of choice? Any info on this?

Dont forget that each cast are not same but similar spices (ex. air had wings in past) so is lis in Tau's nature not want to change caste , as we are happy that we are humans and not gorilas

Precence of choice is that Tau let kroot eat kroot and let them choice in time that that they do is bad, if in IoM human eat human well its heresy....so BAM that human is dead
and if someone has dangerous opiniouns they "reducation camp" or as in DOW if you think games canon they sterelize them , still NOT kill them

Do the tau choose themselves which caste they want to be and can they change it throughout the lifetime?

In short... no.

They are born into their castes. It is biologically wired into them. Even if an Air Caste individual might actually make a really good diplomat (due to personal talents, inclinations, whatever)... he or she is never given that opportunity. Air Caste are pilots, and will always be pilots.

 Pada wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
And what about the freedom of choice? Any info on this?

Dont forget that each cast are not same but similar spices (ex. air had wings in past) so is lis in Tau's nature not want to change caste , as we are happy that we are humans and not gorilas

Precence of choice is that Tau let kroot eat kroot and let them choice in time that that they do is bad, if in IoM human eat human well its heresy....so BAM that human is dead
and if someone has dangerous opiniouns they "reducation camp" or as in DOW if you think games canon they sterelize them , still NOT kill them

Humans let ogryns, ratlings and other abhumans do their stuff. How's that different? Sterelizing = killing in terms of species evolution. Killing is just a quicker less psychologically painful way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Do the tau choose themselves which caste they want to be and can they change it throughout the lifetime?

In short... no.

So, what was all that 'democracy and freedom' about?

Apparently "Ethereals have expert advisors" is the same as "Ethereals listen to the will of the people" in the Nortonverse.

The Tau Empire is a communist oligarchy.

What a lot of people seem to forget, mostly because of the USSR, is that communism is not a system of government. Communism is a system of economy. It defines the fair and equitable dispersal of resources, not power. That's one of the reasons it failed in Russia: The leaders of the new Soviet State didn't have a suitable method of decision making in place that didn't just end up reverting to oligarchy.

In communism, you can't have a representative democracy, because there can't be anyone in a position of power. The main reason communism never works is that it's physically impossible to co-ordinate on a macro scale. Individuals raised in a capitalist society are sociologically incapable of adapting to a communist model - they will always decide that decisions must be made on a macro scale, and they will then decide that you have to have a few people making decisions for everyone, and with that, they decide there should be benefits to being the person making the decision.

Really, with communism, it's a matter of greed and power-lust, things that tau appear to lack a lot of now. They tau are one of the few civilizations that it would seemingly work.

Maybe. I'm not a hundred percent convinced that the Tau really do live in a communist society. It seems much more like the illusion of communism that is a perfected capitalist state - the proletariat all work hard for the greater good, receiving their due in return, while the bourgeoisie (The Ethereals) do very little work, and just lounge around giving orders. Sure, they give orders designed to better the Tau people as a whole, but ultimately they still retain a unilateral power over their subjects, even if they do admit that one of the professions available to the proletariat is "specialist advisor to the Ethereal council".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sure, they [Ethereals] give orders designed to better the Tau people as a whole

LOL, if we take the Shadowsun novels at face value, then not even this .

Shadowsun doesn't really have the perspective required to make that kind of judgement though, which is another point against the idea that the Tau are democratic.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Maybe. I'm not a hundred percent convinced that the Tau really do live in a communist society. It seems much more like the illusion of communism that is a perfected capitalist state - the proletariat all work hard for the greater good, receiving their due in return, while the bourgeoisie (The Ethereals) do very little work, and just lounge around giving orders. Sure, they give orders designed to better the Tau people as a whole, but ultimately they still retain a unilateral power over their subjects, even if they do admit that one of the professions available to the proletariat is "specialist advisor to the Ethereal council".

I think that touches on it, but there is something else going on with the Ethereals. They feel more like the role the Emperor took than just lazy money grubbers. I think they are legitimately shepherding the Tau for someone.

So, what was all that 'democracy and freedom' about?

I am not the person to ask that question of, because I don't think there's much freedom and democracy in Tau society.

In general, there's a lot of "creep factor" built into the Ethereals, from possibility of mind-control via technology, via pheromone, or another as-yet-undiscovered agency. The vibe that I get from the Tau is akin to Orwell's "Animal Farm".

 koooaei wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.

We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.

Shapers command Kroot. Strainleaders command Vespid. Human officers command gue'vesa.

Lots of aliens have command positions in the Empire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:


Tanith. The fluff points to them overthrowing the previous government and establishing a new free society. The term Elector, which came later, may be appointed or elected, but it is known that Tanith was a free society at one point.

And again, the designers themselves have said that any concept of society can be reflected in the galaxy. You can ignore and cherry pick, present your interpretation of Tau and Imperial fluff in your own myopic way, but you do so by ignoring the validity of others doing the same or the statements by the people who actually wrote the fluff which conflict with your proclamations.

Source?

But do humans command tau?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.

We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.

Shapers command Kroot. Strainleaders command Vespid. Human officers command gue'vesa.

Lots of aliens have command positions in the Empire.

That's exactly what we're talking about. Static caste system. Your freedom is severely limited by your racial origins. It's like when black people can boss only over black people, yellow people over yellow and white over white but also are supreme commanders to all the black and yellow cause they're concerned they know what's best for all. And it's called racism.

Unlike humans, tau can't even govern their own empire. Ethereals do that. And it's not exactly clear who this guyz are and what are their origins.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau aren't racist they obviously see that the other races need shepherding into whats realizing what's good for them is good for the Tau and whats good for the Tau is great for the Ethereals.

We're talking about inability to command unless you're born as tau. Static caste system.

Shapers command Kroot. Strainleaders command Vespid. Human officers command gue'vesa.

Lots of aliens have command positions in the Empire.

That's exactly what we're talking about. Static caste system. Your freedom is severely limited by your racial origins. It's like when black people can boss only over black people, yellow people over yellow and white over white but also are supreme commanders to all the black and yellow cause they're concerned they know what's best for all. And it's called racism.

Just as a reminder, the baseline we compare Tau and how they treat aliens to is the IoM genociding everything.

Tau don't seem to see their auxiliaries as expendable. This is in contrast to the IoM, which sees all human life as expendable. Do the Tau value human life more than the IoM? Undoubtably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


Unlike humans, tau can't even govern their own empire. Ethereals do that.

The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

In this regard, the Imperium is much more free and less racist than tau.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

An orgyn or a ratling can't become a High Lord or even a normal human... which is a more accurate comparison. At this point, I don't think there's proof that the different castes can interbreed anymore.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

An orgyn or a ratling can't become a High Lord or even a normal human... which is a more accurate comparison. At this point, I don't think there's proof that the different castes can interbreed anymore.

Luckily, humans are ruled by humans and tau are ruled by some guyz with unknown origins that probably use pheromones.
While the catch about ogryns and ratlings is correct, it doesn't make tausystem better anyhow.

There is also the fact the human IoM has been at war for tens of thousands of years against other species; you know their hand.

Whereas the Tau are new to the galaxy but within the same time frame they have developed a system that inherently restricts those instantly for the rest of their life. A wartime dictatorship sucks but makes sense; a dictatorship even in times of peace is a loss all-around except for those on top.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

An orgyn or a ratling can't become a High Lord or even a normal human... which is a more accurate comparison. At this point, I don't think there's proof that the different castes can interbreed anymore.

Luckily, humans are ruled by humans and tau are ruled by some guyz with unknown origins that probably use pheromones.
While the catch about ogryns and ratlings is correct, it doesn't make tausystem better anyhow.

It makes it better than the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is also the fact the human IoM has been at war for tens of thousands of years against other species; you know their hand.

Whereas the Tau are new to the galaxy but within the same time frame they have developed a system that inherently restricts those instantly for the rest of their life. A wartime dictatorship sucks but makes sense; a dictatorship even in times of peace is a loss all-around except for those on top.

Being at war for tens of thousands of years is an impressive feat when you've only existed for ten thousand years.

Tell me, how exactly has the Imperium been at war longer than it has existed?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

An orgyn or a ratling can't become a High Lord or even a normal human... which is a more accurate comparison. At this point, I don't think there's proof that the different castes can interbreed anymore.

Luckily, humans are ruled by humans and tau are ruled by some guyz with unknown origins that probably use pheromones.
While the catch about ogryns and ratlings is correct, it doesn't make tausystem better anyhow.

It makes it better than the Imperium.

How?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Being at war for tens of thousands of years is an impressive feat when you've only existed for ten thousand years.

Tell me, how exactly has the Imperium been at war longer than it has existed?

Well if were gonna nitpick, the IoM has been around (if records are to be believed) 10,0xx-10,200 years... so I'm still right. However prior to that the DAoT was also punctuated with humans fighting other species as they began their expansion of the galaxy, following the isolation of the Sol system and the subsequent collapse of human society as places were isolated and daemon invasions were prominent. I believe it would be safe to say that the vast majority of human society existed under a military doctrine as expansion was most important, following the subsequent colonizing and infrastructure I don't believe the times of the 15k and 40k would be much more different beyond the fact the forces of chaos are more prominent and therefore more grimdark.

It makes sense that given the delay of communications given the expanding distances, you would use a system that allows a degree of versatility to each region of space, lest the world fall to ruin because of a crawling bureaucracy.

Technically the Empire of Man is somewhere around 25,000 years old. It has been known as the Imperium for around 10,000 years but the term is interchangeable with the earlier Empire.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Ethereals are, in fact, Tau.

There's no clear information on their origins and where exactly they came from. Anywayz, a regular tau can't become ethereal and thus can't rule no matter how smart, powerful or skillful he is. A regular human can become a high lord of terra.

An orgyn or a ratling can't become a High Lord or even a normal human... which is a more accurate comparison. At this point, I don't think there's proof that the different castes can interbreed anymore.

Luckily, humans are ruled by humans and tau are ruled by some guyz with unknown origins that probably use pheromones.
While the catch about ogryns and ratlings is correct, it doesn't make tausystem better anyhow.

It makes it better than the Imperium.

Any human can become a high lord of Terra, as long as they are capable. A Ratling or Ogryn could, assuming they gained enough power and influence. Now, there are many reasons why they may never be able to gain that power, from anti abhuman racism preventing them from amassing power, to shear stupidity, but there is no reason why they could not in theory.

For the Tau there is three clear classes, Ethereals at the top, followed by the Tau, followed by everyone else. Someone from a lower tier can never command someone from a higher tier. A Human could rise to authority over other humans, but never over any Tau, but a Tau or Ethereal can command humans, or vespid, or kroot or anyone else non tau. The Imperium is a far more democratic and meritocratic society than the Tau empire. A Human could never rise to command even a squad of fire warriors, no matter how good he may be, and a Tau could never rise to a place of true power, or at least a Tau that is not of the Ethereal class (Depending on your view of the Ethereals).

Said Human would have to be extremely lucky, but I suppose, were the Emperor to smile upon that human, they would be able to rise from the lowest sink in the Under-Hive, attract the eye of an Inquisitor, be taken into his/her retinue, prove themselves and be made Interrogator, gain the Rosette and become an Inquisitor in their own right, do all the politicking within the Inquisition, as well as the work of the Inquisition, and eventually rise to the rank of Grand Master of the Inquisition, which sits as a High Lord of Terra.

It would be insanely rare for such a thing to happen but it is, indeed, possible.