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GAdvance wrote:
A GK is no more surviveable than an average marine, weaker than a fair few actually like sons of Antaeus

Actually, Terminator Armour and psychic abilities would go a long way in mitigating that.

Fluffwise, I'm going with Thousand sons. Let's compare them to grey knights because a lot of people in this thread seem to favor them as the strongest.

Grey knights are strong psykers, but so are Thousand sons. I'd argue them to be even stronger because the rubric of Ahriman augmented every psyker's power (that did not turn into a Rubric) immensely. Even before the Rubric, Thousand sons had some of the most powerful psykers in the imperium, so I think it's safe to assume (non-rubric) thousand sons are vastly more potent than Grey knights as psykers.
In addition to this, Chaos sorcerers in general are not held back by the doctrines of the imperium that binds the use of psychic powers. Some novels illustrate psykers becoming more powerful after turning traitor because living under the rule of the Imperium means repressing your psychic potential to a certain boundry.

Rubric marines are know to tank through shots from the most powerful anti-tank weaponry known to man. They're more durable than the Sons Antaeus. So again it's a safe assumption they're more durable than GK, even if GK sport Terminator armour. And a dead Rubric marine is not by definition dead. Thousand sons can resurrect their fallen rubrics by trapping the souls of their dead into corpses, transforming them into Rubricae again.

Speaking of Terminator armour, Thousand sons don't give a sod about that since their inferno bolts (not to confuse with the Imperial inferno bolts) ignore any mundane armour and destroy the target's soul. And this is just speculation but if their bullets ignore any form of physical armour, wouldn't their bullets penetrate vehicles as well, killing the crew operating it?
Bear in mind that standard terminator armour does not have a force field as would be indicated by the tabletop.

Grey knights are said to have been trained to be the best of the best, but we all know training only gets you so far. Real battlefield experience is just as valuable, if not more so than training. Commander Dante is believed to be the oldest living loyalist space marine, being 1.300 years old. However, some (if not most) Thousand sons should be around 10.000 years old. They have far more experience than regular astartes and even Grey knights. And this assumptions again, but their combat prowess should be up to par with Grey knights. If you can live through the warp for thousands of years, I think you'd be able to live through any training the imperium can throw at you.

Thousand sons are some of the most prominent practitioners of divination, meaning they could foresee the flow of the battle and adapt accordingly. Can you win against an opponent that knows what you're going to do before you're doing it?

There would be two disadvantages for Thousand sonscompared to Grey knights and I'm on the fence for both of them because we have no numerical values to compare. First comes the fact that their 'legion' is a bunch of warbands with a few hundred sorcerers controlling thousands of automatons. This is a disadvantage because in order to greatly reduce the combat effectiveness of the Rubricae, you only need to kill the sorcerer's.
Secondly, it is said that a Sorcerer can easily control a whole squad of them, but it is not specified how big "a whole squad" is.

An average Grey knight is also quite limited in their pyscic power, it's only a very small number of them with the training to do much more than active force weapons and some other combat basic

Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

 Vaktathi wrote:
I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

How about Cult Terminators in general? GOD the last CSM codex was crap...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

How about Cult Terminators in general? GOD the last CSM codex was crap...

The last two really

It's like GW has been going out of its way to not provide what Chaos Players have actually been asking for, despite that it would be a license to print money.

Fluff wise the most powerful space marines are the custodes on terra. The only space marines more powerful then them are the primarchs.

Way far behind them are grey Knights
And grey Knights are like the seal team 6 of basic space marines.

Custodes are not Astartes.

We also don't know their power compared to Grey Knights. I'd assume Custodes possess superior combat skills but they lack the psychic ability. I'd consider them on par with one another, but with different specialities (daemonhunting vs bodyguarding)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

Rainbow Warriors, duh.

GAdvance wrote:
An average Grey knight is also quite limited in their pyscic power, it's only a very small number of them with the training to do much more than active force weapons and some other combat basic

Page 6 of the Codex: "all Grey Knights are trained to bend the powers of the Warp to their will, and each one is a powerful psyker." and "Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

Would appear then that the average Librarian can barely activate their force weapons

Grey Knights all can do the anti-daemon powers, they also choose a specialty within the normal disciplines and train in them.

Hyperion was a pyro-specialist himself.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

"Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

That does not mean that ALL Grey Knights are more powerful than Librarians. More like the Grey Knights as a whole.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

Spoiler:

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

Doesn't that totally ruin the fluff though? Or did they retcon the part where the TSons were just dust in animated suits?

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

Spoiler:

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

Doesn't that totally ruin the fluff though? Or did they retcon the part where the TSons were just dust in animated suits?

I don't think so, could simply be that materialized Chaos comes out as flesh and tissue - That's my take on it, anyway. Makes a lot of the newer designs make more sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Custodes are not Astartes.

We also don't know their power compared to Grey Knights. I'd assume Custodes possess superior combat skills but they lack the psychic ability. I'd consider them on par with one another, but with different specialities (daemonhunting vs bodyguarding)

That's just not true at least according to thier lore. They are not space marines but they are the most powerful legion created by the emperor.
" The Custodes are the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created; they are the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium."

 Skinnereal wrote:

"Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

That does not mean that ALL Grey Knights are more powerful than Librarians. More like the Grey Knights as a whole.

Makes more sense to me to point out that each Grey Knight is X powerful, rather than say "An entire chapter is more powerful than a single individual".

"Even the Chapter Masters of other Chapters cannot match the combat mastery of the Black Templar" - yes. yes I do believe that a single Chapter Master would find it hard to beat out ~1,000 marines.

Forthe record, a gousand sons dreadnought looks like this: http://skaystore.ru/images/detailed/69/Thousons1.jpg?t=1436486787

The most powerful space marine is Jim Raynor and the Raynor's Raiders.

Ken52682 wrote:
The most powerful space marine is Jim Raynor and the Raynor's Raiders.

True that!