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Grey Knights may be the best, but they aren't everywhere.

No single force in the Imperium could beat all others. None. So yeah, sure Grey Knights are the best Space Marines. But there are only ~1000 of them. Not sure if the OP is trying to make a point or not, it sounds like they are, but bear in mind that Grey Knights still rely on having Guardsmen to occupy worlds and act as a buffer force, Space Marines to be there more times than the Grey Knights ever were, Adeptus Mechanicus to create munitions and equipment, Inquisition to find these heretical cults and whatnot, Imperial Navy to keep the stars cleanish, Sisters of Battle to root out heretics and guard the Ministorum, Ministorum to keep the Guardsmen placated, so on, so forth.

The Grey Knights need everything else, but the Imperium could still endure without the Grey Knights.

Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Really, unless you ignore the fluff anyway the space marines don't matter at all since there are too few of them to ever matter.

Correct, when you use IRL logic.
Incorrect when you use 40k logic, which has a mind of its own. And we don't need to go in depth into 40k logic in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Really, unless you ignore the fluff anyway the space marines don't matter at all since there are too few of them to ever matter.

Correct, when you use IRL logic.
Incorrect when you use 40k logic, which has a mind of its own. And we don't need to go in depth into 40k logic in this thread.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Which I believe we have conclusively found out. Much to my personal dislike of GK, but they are by technicality, the most powerful.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

That's why there must be billions of them, contrary to the fluff.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Which I believe we have conclusively found out. Much to my personal dislike of GK, but they are by technicality, the most powerful.

Woot!

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

No, a nuke would be a D weapon that always rolls a "6". Terminator armor is actually quite poor.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

No, a nuke would be a D weapon that always rolls a "6". Terminator armor is actually quite poor.

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes. They should have D, but seeing as they currently don't, we can't really say that.
Still sucks though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

That's why there must be billions of them, contrary to the fluff.

Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is.
I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff.
Ignorance is bliss, they do say.

I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

"Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is. "

I can't do that. 1000 marines is physically incapable of doing anything they claim in any of the fluff. They couldn't even take a present day Earth city, I'd wager.

"Deathstrike Missiles are nukes. They should have D, but seeing as they currently don't, we can't really say that. . "

Yeah, I can, because I know what nukes really do. And they do way more than what Deathstrike missiles do in the game.

"I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff. "

Nope. Because it is terrible fiction anyway.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is.
I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff.
Ignorance is bliss, they do say.

GW stuff requires a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief. But... There are times whee even my Disbelief cannot be Suspended:

I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

But that isn't the Dark Angels. That's Dark Angels and successors.
Rules as written, Dark Angels still only number around 1000 marines, as per codex astartes.

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

So how do you greet people?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

So how do you greet people?

I accept physical hand waving, but not intellectual.

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

That's your opinion, which is fine, but holds no place in a fluff argument, regardless of your headcanons or personal beliefs.
I don't like GK either, or 40k's wacked-out scale, but it is the fluff, and the fluff is law.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

That's your opinion, which is fine, but holds no place in a fluff argument, regardless of your headcanons or personal beliefs.
I don't like GK either, or 40k's wacked-out scale, but it is the fluff, and the fluff is law.

If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly. I usually consider tabletop >>> fluff anyway, which makes the marines an ever bigger joke. Eldar would lay waste to a dozen chapters in a week.

Martel732 wrote:
If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly.

If fluff were law, players couldn't build min-maxed armies in the first place!

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly.

If fluff were law, players couldn't build min-maxed armies in the first place!

GW's fluff has always been a joke and will always be a joke. At least in my mind. Where's you fluff when the Eldar are packing dozens of scatterlasers? Nowhere, that's where.

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

The Dark Angels Legion would win, yes. Formally they are not one, however.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

The Dark Angels Legion would win, yes. Formally they are not one, however.

What about the Templars?

We all know that the only reason GW retconned their numbers was so that they could call them codex-adherent. There's probably quite a few large crusades out there, with possible offshoot crusades, too.

No idea, because we do not know how many they are.

I think it's pretty bull to just accept that GK's are the best because the codex says they are just so amazing without actually listing their capabilities, how do they deal with armour... worse than pretty much every chapter, how do they deal with being shot... same as any normal space marine

They are pretty clearly a specialised force for fighting demons that happen to be space marines with a limited but powerful armoury

You list game mechanics. Psycannons and daemonhammers deal with vehicles just fine in the fluff, as do their own armoured support.

There is no bull about it.

Dread knights are pretty awesome against armor too. So is are 9 ap2 Draigo with hammer hand.