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No game mechanics please.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Ultramarines. They are the greatest of all Astartes.

Old school Thousand Sons. All the advantages of every other space marine, plus as much psyker juice as they could handle.

Fluffwise 40K grey knights aren't even all that good at dealing with daemons, but they're the best of what's available.

I was never talking about rules, i mean organisationally they cannot fight armour

The chapter simply doesn't carry weapons for dealing with armoured forces en masse, they have enough to deal with them in a limited way but a daemonhammer only goes so far

Psycannons don't kill Leman Russes in the fluff do they?

GAdvance wrote:
I was never talking about rules, i mean organisationally they cannot fight armour

The chapter simply doesn't carry weapons for dealing with armoured forces en masse, they have enough to deal with them in a limited way but a daemonhammer only goes so far

Psycannons don't kill Leman Russes in the fluff do they?

Of course they do. As do daemon hammers in fluff, and dread Knights, oh and melta bombs too. Oh an their psychic vortex of doom. List goes on.

Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

Always thought it'd be cooler if Psychic powers were Fantasy-grade powerful. Right now, they are a lot weaker than most weapons...

Some are amazing. Force, sanctuary, invisibility, prescience, iron arm.

 heshman wrote:
Old school Thousand Sons. All the advantages of every other space marine, plus as much psyker juice as they could handle.

This if we speak per marine. But in 40K and by chapter maybe Dark Angels. Because they command their successors too and are superb keeping secrets.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Some are amazing. Force, sanctuary, invisibility, prescience, iron arm.

True - But more destructive stuff. Something like the Comet of Cassandra or the Purple Sun of Xerecexerex or whatever.

I agree, that would be awesome. Tone down on silly buffs like Invisibility, make Psykers expensive, and give them fireworks to play with.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

Nnnnoooooooo.

No.

Not all psykers are the same; and even telekines are rarely powerful enough to throw around tanks (though I say rarely, they're still probably more common than Space Marines and certainly more common than Librarians). Many psykers have other specialties, such as pyrokines, biomancers, diviners, etc. It varies based upon the soul of the psyker in question. The only thing common to all psykers would be daemon contracts / daemon summoning, because daemons are non-discriminatory soulsuckers.

One interesting idea would be to use the idea from FFG about different levels of caution-- fettered, unfettered, and push. The former has no risks, but you can generally only cast basic powers; the second has basic risk, and you can cast most powers. The latter, Push, is very risky, but allows you to cast your most powerful poewrs, and even your weaker ones become more powerful.

I'd swing forwards Black Templar. Because In all I have read they always take on ridiculous challenges, like absolutely zero chance challenges and generally do a pretty damn good job.

Or Iron Fist, they aren't very susceptible to pskers since they are half machine and because of their reinforced body's I would think they would fair extremely well again a regular marine.

Echo0455 wrote:
I'd swing forwards Black Templar. Because In all I have read they always take on ridiculous challenges, like absolutely zero chance challenges and generally do a pretty damn good job.

Or Iron Fist, they aren't very susceptible to pskers since they are half machine and because of their reinforced body's I would think they would fair extremely well again a regular marine.

I'd assume that the reason BT usually win challanges with sure a low success rate is mainly plot armour. Or the challenge wasn't that hard anyway.

Iron Hands (I think this was who you were referring to) are slightly more durable than a standard marine, yes, but any standard power armoured astartes will struggle against a Grey Knight due to the vastly different loadout Grey Knights receive as standard.

Regular Marine:


vs

Grey Knight:


Not really a fair fight, but hey, it is a typical Grey Knight's wargear.

Psychic ability is wargear now?

And Terminator Armour is standard?

The average grey knights physic ability is actually pretty heavily curtailed so they are more easily controllable as well, i really don't buy that they are so clearly individually superior to all other astartes in all situations, and they DO clearly lack the weapons for large scale combats that other chapters have as standard

BT's are a good bet though, they have higher numbers a wide variety of worlds applicants so stronger marines and very dangerous training methods more so than usual, they are a little... one track though, they aren't exactly smart

I am assuming fluff.

1. Grey Knights or Space Wolves: feats are equal
2. Iron Hands: mentioned that their bionics increase their strength threefold, are more durable, etc.
3. Minotaurs: Dedicated Space Marine killers, have as many relics as a Founding Chapter.
4. Salamanders: Artisans of wargear, when you got two people of equal strength the gear you have matters.

-Blood Angels don't make top 5 because of the Black Rage, too much of a liability.
-Ultramarines are Jack-of-all-trades and besides Titus are supposedly by the codex. This can be exploited.
-Dark Angels if we count their links to the successors would be amazing, but then Ultramarines would be better still.
-Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, don't have enough feats to rank properly. Rather we have individuals from those codices that are focused on.

Custodes... aren't really Space Marines, they're better, and there are 10,000 of them.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

I mean, yeah, they have a lot of them, but their standard equipment is still Aegis Power Armour.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

I mean, yeah, they have a lot of them, but their standard equipment is still Aegis Power Armour.

Nope. The Terminators are the backbone of the army, with PA troops used as specialists or when extra mobility is required. It is explained in their codex entry.

GK can outfit everyone in Terminator armor. In fact, originally (RT/2E/early 3E) they didn't have power armor units at all.

Holy hell... And to think I played Grey Knights once.

The second you finish Initiation as a Grey Knight you get a suit of Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, and Force weapon. You have to get approval from the Justicar or whomever is in charge of the operation to wear Power Armor.

I wish I could put Purifiers in Termie armor,would be awesome..

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes.

They're tomahawks at best.

On Topic: CSM are best SM.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes.

They're tomahawks at best.

Well, they can be given a number of different warheads, conventional, vortex, chemical, etc.

I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

 Melissia wrote:
non-discriminatory soulsuckers.

At last, a goal that Bankers can reasonably be expected to aspire to!

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

Draigowing. The GK probably have more suits of Termie armour than the BT are reputed to have marines.

GAdvance wrote:

BT's are a good bet though, they have higher numbers a wide variety of worlds applicants so stronger marines and very dangerous training methods more so than usual, they are a little... one track though, they aren't exactly smart

They're smart, but they sometimes go waaay to far with the whole crusading/honour schtick. They do seem to have the skill to match it though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

Yeah. It's sorta still current fluff that crusades keep picking up new recruitment worlds, and the crusades probably all have orders that if they lose contact with the other crusades, they are to assume they are the only remaining Templars, and to bring their numbers back up to 1000+.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

Fluff wise how many humans does it take to really kill a space marine? not to mention a GK? the crusaders are just gonna be a pain in the ass at most and delay the inevitable. and they might be resistant to psykers but cleansing flame is still cleansing flame.

A GK is no more surviveable than an average marine, weaker than a fair few actually like sons of Antaeus