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Depends on how you define "bad". There's Ork "bad" and then there's Eldar "bad", but the two are not equally "bad" or even "bad" on the same end of the spectrum.

Well, I used the "bad" in a very relative sense here. Like how being forced to take allies or FW to compete is "bad".

 Psienesis wrote:
Depends on how you define "bad". There's Ork "bad" and then there's Eldar "bad", but the two are not equally "bad" or even "bad" on the same end of the spectrum.

Which is very true, honestly this thing makes me feel like poor bug players with how overcosted their MC's/GMS's tend to be

It is true, I don't like Tau; they are the anti-thesis of the two armies I have and play (Grey Knights & Orks). Where I like to assault, Tau backpedal and keep shooting as they can. They got good answers to both armies and the games against them REALLY test my ability to exploit everything I have available to me to stand a chance.

So what if they have to get in close to HP units to use their good anti-tank. There are very few vehicles that are real threats to them, is it bad that Tau are moderately balanced by having to screen certain units in a display of some tactical skill? Do you WANT to do nothing but shoot, shoot, move & shoot?

The D is not an issue (ironically for once), but this unit is still GOOD! How are people seeing otherwise? Just because we are comparing it to THEE most broken units in the game already?

Again, people aren't complaining about how good it is, but what it does. Tau already has anti-swarm well and truly covered (as I assume you have encountered first hand), what they do not have to any reasonable extent is anti-heavy armour. We saw the big guns and though (hey maybe this things will be good against armour, which would be a welcome fix". But no it's more fething 5-5 spam.

It's not even really good 5/5 spam since FW get objective secure and easy methods to buff, SMS ignore cover and LOS issues, the bomber has less scatter and is harder to hit (but gets less bombing runs and has the chance to never fire again), Drones!, and Piranha are just plain fun.

What really kills me is the very concept.
"Hey, lets make a suit like the Riptide but have it be all missiles. Not the good ones or the mediocre ones, but 5/5 ones like every where else in the book."
"Yeah, and lets give it sms as well!"
"Then lets give it some one shot missiles that are actually pretty good!"
"Guys, why not just give it the good missiles instead of all the crappy ones?"
Then he gets thrown out a window.

It's solid, in a vacuum.. whether or not it's good within its own book has yet to be seen. I think this type of gmc is more of what I'd personally prefer from gw, since they are here to stay regardless.

The more I think about it the more and more I hate the Stormsurge rules.

It's like getting a WW1 French Field Gun during WW2 instead of a Howitzer let alone the Flak 88 that we needed. Then the officers shout up and down its rapid fire capabilities are great at taking down infantry, and then around the corner comes a great big ISU-152.

Boy oh boy is that thing in trouble.

In this case the SS for short (lol) is the Canon de 75 modèle 1897 and a dropped in squad is the tank or a knight.

*sigh*

We calling this the SS or the MLE in honor of its clearly designed by a bunch of idiotic committee members? I prefer Little MLE, but I can see the appeal of calling it our SS walker. Hahah.

I just want to know why we keep getting missiles, ion guns, and pulse weapons when people just want more railguns?

I think it's still too early to access the competitive level of the neo Tau. The new suit seems needed and I don't see any reason to be hating on it.

There are units that are more durable, better anti-horde, better anti-tank, better anti-TEQ, and look better.

Let me put it as plainly as I can. It's like you're playing Tetris and you never seem to get the straight line and keeping getting the L's and bent blocks. Yeah, you can use them. But it's not really what you needed and wanted. And your friend across from you is playing a game where he gets the straight lines one after another.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I just want to know why we keep getting missiles, ion guns, and pulse weapons when people just want more railguns?

You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I just want to know why we keep getting missiles, ion guns, and pulse weapons when people just want more railguns?

You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

Yeah... I dont see how people keep missing this.

Also so far this is the only unit stats that we have seen so far. Maybe things like HYMP get a nerf, maybe our fliers suddenly become really good anti-tank. No reason why the bomber is still a S5 bomb instead of something more armor devastating. After all, I bet they want to sell more of those kits too as they were not exactly flying off the shelf upon release.

I think this units good, bad, redundency, etc. can only be determined once we know more information about what other units have gotten or have lost.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.

Except, it's not overcosted at all at 360 pts, and the Hyper Mega Wave Motion Gun option is totally worth the +25 pts. Especially when it gets to double tap after the first turn.

Hell, if my Chaos Marines could have this bad boy... I would gladly trade 2 Defilers for 1 of these!

Holy gak gmaleron how is this overcosted?

 gmaleron wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.

and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Except, it's not overcosted at all at 360 pts, and the Hyper Mega Wave Motion Gun option is totally worth the +25 pts. Especially when it gets to double tap after the first turn.
Hell, if my Chaos Marines could have this bad boy...

Cant agree with your opinion on the fact the base cost of the model isn't overcosted, especially if comparing it to models or books that have yet to be updated but I am perfectly fine with that gun being 25pts.

 Quickjager wrote:
Holy gak gmaleron how is this overcosted?

Just looking at the base model stats and what it can do to me makes it feel overcosted.

-Firepower: So at most you are dishing out x2 shots a turn that have scatter potential and depending on the weapon you may have to take a turn setting up to get the second shot. Also one of the guns max range is 30 inches which isn't horrible but definitely not the range that Tau are used to.
-Type of firepower: As mentioned the only real gun that has long range anti-armor capability is the S10 AP1 Ordnance weapon which is a 25pt. upgrade (which is acceptable in my eyes) with the other weapon system being only useful against infantry.
-T6 platform, the argument that "we need anti tank to kill it" is invalid since Bolters and even Lasguns have the potential to wound it.

Not saying it like "boo hoo its horribly overcosted" and im not even saying the unit sucks, I would have to say its an okay unit but I feel that base cost it should have been more around 325-335pts. which is still more expensive then a base Wraithinkight. And yes I will use the Wraithknight as an example over anything in the CSM book due to the fact that it is a much more recent book and a much better example to base potential future/current releases on.

The last guy had the Eldar spend 2x the points to have a fair chance at dropping the Tau suit after 2 rounds of shooting by a 3-part combo force.

Now, you're doing the same thing in that wall of self-gratifying fantasy. Just how many points did you spend to make that scenario happen?

Because if it takes 3 units at twice the points cost working in perfect synergy to defeat this thing, you know what? That means it's good. Period.

And points for points, this thing is clearly better than a pair of Chaos Defilers. Any CSM player would be willing to pay a good 5-10% extra points tax in order to take a single squadron of these things.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The last guy had the Eldar spend 2x the points to have a fair chance at dropping the Tau suit after 2 rounds of shooting by a 3-part combo force.
Now, you're doing the same thing in that wall of self-gratifying fantasy. Just how many points did you spend to make that scenario happen?
Because if it takes 3 units at twice the points cost working in perfect synergy to defeat this thing, you know what? That means it's good. Period.
And points for points, this thing is clearly better than a pair of Chaos Defilers. Any CSM player would be willing to pay a good 5-10% extra points tax in order to take a single squadron of these things.

Self gratifying fantasy my ass, all I stated is that you trying to justify its points cost based on the point costs of another and older (and generally recognized poor book) is a very poor example to base your logic on. And what are you talking about I have never mentioned taking multiple units with twice the points cost to defeat this thing so I fail to see what you are getting at? Elaborate or I am afraid you are in the wrong argument or just babbling incoherently.

Wow, is someone a little cranky? Maybe chill a bit, and read the rest of the thread before you get so wound up?

Like, I dunno, maybe the post RIGHT BEFORE YOURS that quoted me?

 ionusx wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.

and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.

Or the other silly example I responded to:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.

This does not indicate a problem with the tau.

It highlights a problem with the Eldar.

Eldar who spent 295 + 100 + 270 points to drop a 360-point model in one turn?

I fail to see any problem with the Eldar if they're basically spending 2x the points to kill that Tau suit.

Because I got news for you - not every reply after you is for you.

:eyeroll:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wow, is someone a little cranky? Maybe chill a bit, and read the rest of the thread before you get so wound up?

Im perfectly fine thank you, not mad at all pardon me for pointing out your flawed logic and comments? When directing something in regards to what I am saying I generally don't include other peoples arguments, especially if they are unrelated to the points I am trying to make. maybe split up your conversations properly and not try to lump it all into on giant congealed mess?

I'm reading the gun swap is only 15 points.

@gmwhatever - I just so hard my nose hurts. It's not about you, OK. Go away.
____

@Wren - I'm not even sure the 15 vs 25 matters at this point. People are just nitpicking so hard at it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@gmwhatever - I just so hard my nose hurts. It's not about you, OK. Go away.
____

@Wren - I'm not even sure the 15 vs 25 matters at this point. People are just nitpicking so hard at it.

Then don't quote me and accuse me of being cranky? Maybe I wouldn't confuse you talking about me then, my bad for misunderstanding but keep it mature.

Too early to access whether or not it's overcosted. Have to wait and see what everything else costs.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Too early to access whether or not it's overcosted. Have to wait and see what everything else costs.

Fair assessment, especially if they increase the price of the Support Systems.

 ionusx wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You mean, like the option to swap the cannon into a 72" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance gun?

For 25 points making something that already seems a little overcosted even more expensive at 385pts. before support systems are even added in. Also you only are able to get the x2 shots after the first turn since it needs to take a turn anchoring in. Not at all saying that it isn't a good unit just that it is a little overcosted, especially on a T6 platform.

and anchors mean it cant run away from a fail leadership in cc (it can get sweeping advanced by black knights ouchy). for those wondering its a bit of a perfect storm but you set up the knights to charge, you deepstrike in the darkshroud, you charge and laugh as his overwatch is wasted shooting at air (because he wont kill a single one; period) they get into CC, he swings his s6 ap- smack and then gets corvus hammered into the pavement and will pretty much auto-lose combat statistically. and then its G to da G as he gets swept aside by bikes and their silly initiative, all you need to do is make damn sure he fails leadership (and you can cause interromancy is a thing). as stated its a bit of a perfect storm but losing 380+ point model to some relatively cheap black knights with a librarian would suck SOOOOO bad.

Except that being a GC, he's Fearless and isn't running away from combat to be swept - Interromancy or no.

Oh, and punctuation, grammer and sentence structure is a thing, too.

I think hes ballanced, but seeing that 3+ Save.. dear god. TMCs are going to get a 4+ save in the next update arent they..

Curious to see how much the model is actually going to cost. At the current rumor point it puts him at around 250 AU which is crazy. (Knights being 155 AU.)

I totally believe the rumor about his cost. Doesn't Skarbrand cost about the same?