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 Vaktathi wrote:

 Talys wrote:
re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.

As display pieces, as models, a lot of them are great. No argument. Big models have always really been intended as centerpiece showcase items.

However, a large factor of what's driving their popularity is their power and relatively low cost. Yeah, people are gonna love them when they're both awesome looking and incredibly powerful for a relatively small points investment.

Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.

Quite frankly, I like the big models. They are cool. And up until DreamForge's Leviathan (and now, Kingdom Death : Monster), only GW has been doing them.

FW showed that overpricing just doesn't work from a gaming standpoint.

The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.

Dman137 wrote:
I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.

I really hope you're one day smart enough to learn the difference between "know" and "no".

chaos0xomega wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.

I really hope you're one day smart enough to learn the difference between "know" and "no".

Rip Dman.

Lets say a few words for our fellow TFG....

 krodarklorr wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.

I really hope you're one day smart enough to learn the difference between "know" and "no".

Rip Dman.

Lets say a few words for our fellow TFG....

I was considering buying one just to mess with him.

In other news, I expect that this model will be come a vary popular prize at tournaments. Here's hoping Da Boyz GT takes the hint.

I think we need to see it on the table in concert with an army before coming to any conclusions. Nobody's mentioned the effects of formations yet which is usually a big-time consideration. You know they're coming.

Gunlining might not work with the Blastcannon. But then again, most of these new codex releases made their armies play completely differently. 3x of these things in a squadron can get into a central position very quickly, at which point they can anchor and attempt to dominate the board. It's much higher risk but it's going to play a lot better to Maelstrom.

So I think what really matters, can the new Tau play effectively in the midfield? And that remains to be seen.

For the Tau to play at midfield, maybe they need better cover fire to clear the way as they advance? I wonder if the Tau would get anything to help with that.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.

I really hope you're one day smart enough to learn the difference between "know" and "no".

Rip Dman.

Lets say a few words for our fellow TFG....

I was considering buying one just to mess with him.

In other news, I expect that this model will be come a vary popular prize at tournaments. Here's hoping Da Boyz GT takes the hint.

can't wait for DaBoyz

I really hope know one is dumb enough to buy this thing.

Well my local 40k league doesn't allow you to take any non-codex lords of war, so I might get one just to have a lord of war choice. The other Tau players at the store are also getting one, so I can borrow 2 and run 3, and watch people whine. Maybe then they'll open up the playing field.

So you're admitting that you're going to be tfg? I'd never wanna play you at all. And hopefully tournies ban him even though he isn't good. Most tournies allow you guys those two really scrappy lords of war. stick to those. Tau need to remain below. Not joking or trolling, being serious

Remind me again why it would be bad to bring three of those?
Depending on upgrades that's 100 points invested into three models that have to be grouped together and are completely susceptible to everything in the tournament scene already.

And you honestly think Tau need to be below the power curve? Can you give any sane reason why or why there even needs to be a distinction as large as we see now?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So you're admitting that you're going to be tfg? I'd never wanna play you at all. And hopefully tournies ban him even though he isn't good. Most tournies allow you guys those two really scrappy lords of war. stick to those. Tau need to remain below. Not joking or trolling, being serious

What? Why?

I would rather face a unit of 3 of these than a single one.
1,080 points without upgrades in a single unit.

Would rather face this that the super tuna too.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Tau need to remain below. Not joking or trolling, being serious

Troll-o-meter 10/10 for actually saying Tau should be sub-par in a Tau thread.

Tau should be average overall, with superior shooting and inferior assault. That's their design brief.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Troll-o-meter 10/10 for actually saying Tau should be sub-par in a Tau thread.

Tau should be average overall, with superior shooting and inferior assault. That's their design brief.

Agreed. Though in an idealized 40k every army should be average overall.

Don't forget their lack of psyker too, so they fail in 2 phases.

True. Potentially though, Tau special abilities and war gear can fill a similar roll. Such as the buffmander and the ethereal. Although I wouldn't mind if they added a psyker auxiliary, it's not technically necessary.

Correct. They do have decent anti assault which helps, and some sort of psycic defense in the dex would be cool.

Lack of Psyker isn't that bad, as it can be masked by better shooting / statlines / special rules.

For example, Eldar pay up to 100 points for a Farseer giving Guide. But they could just as easily pay a few more points to make everything twin-linked (or BS5) due to magic tech.

Yes, I would pay a lot of points (and cash) for a tau equivalent to a culluxes assassin. like some sort of super predator that hunts psykers, domesticated by the tau.

The way you word it makes it sound like 100 points for guide is the only thing you get out of a Farseer.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Talys wrote:
re- the arms race... a lot of people bemoan it as something that they dislike. Yet clearly, this is what fans are asking for, based on both their buying patterns (people buy the big, powerful models), AND what people vote as their favorite models. If you look at the 2014 readers' choices, they were almost all giant, powerful creatures that were also sophisticated, super-premium models.

As display pieces, as models, a lot of them are great. No argument. Big models have always really been intended as centerpiece showcase items.

However, a large factor of what's driving their popularity is their power and relatively low cost. Yeah, people are gonna love them when they're both awesome looking and incredibly powerful for a relatively small points investment.

Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.

Quite frankly, I like the big models. They are cool. And up until DreamForge's Leviathan (and now, Kingdom Death : Monster), only GW has been doing them.

FW showed that overpricing just doesn't work from a gaming standpoint.

The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.

That was exactly my point...these big models are coming out at very low points costs relative to their abilities. Cutting the Baneblade's base price in half would put it at !~260pts, only about 50-60pts above a kitted Leman Russ variant. A Banehammer cut in half would cost less than what a Pask-Punisher would cost.

Most of the pricing of GC's and SH's in recent years was GW, not FW, and this includes still-vastly overcosted units like Scythed Heirodules.

And Baneblade-chassis vehicles typically aren't near 600pts, some are as cheap as 410pts. A couple might be a smidge overcosted, primarily the original Baneblade (since for some reason they *raised* it's cost), but as a whole they're relatively sanely costed.

Nobody thought they were overcosted until *very* recently. They matched a trio of Russ tanks generally fairly well in capability, resiliency, and price. It wasn't until we started getting things like Wraithknights at sub-300pts that people started to think Baneblades equivalent tanks were overcosted.

Vehicles in the current game are far, far overpriced for what they bring to the table.

Strength 10 ordnance large blast firing twice I think will be really useful for Tau when fighting against armored columns, especially things like tons of Rhinos (like with the Battle Company) or tons of chimeras and the like. All the of the battle reports I've seen of the SM battle company being played I saw a bunch of rhinos all clustered together in the middle of the table. I imagine with the right markerlight support, you could probably get 3 rhinos under that pie plate, and with S10 AP1 it wouldn't be hard to fish for an explodes result. Since he's a Gargantuan creature and fire at different targets, he might could fire off those missiles at the squads inside.

Sure, its no knight titan killer like the fluff says it is, but it can still be useful.

What would a tau suit that was a titan killer be armed with?

I'm just thinking that if it was actually capable of ending a wraithknight in one turn it would be "the new wraithknight".

If a GC with 10 strength 10 ignore cover api shot cannon dropped it would be absolutely devastating to everything. Basically, you can't put enough firepower to kill a wraithknight on a model or it would murder the lesser races even worse.

A twin-linked heavy railgun would work well. It's ranged D, but is direct fire, s it's pretty much dedicated anti-SH.

Not having psychic is huge if the opponent is major on it. Grey Knights, daemons, eldar. Tau really need nerfed harder. Their points increased. They need to represent on the board how small and insignificant they really are. Our new punching bag.

So you're not here to contribute anything to the conversation?

Didn't I just state how missing psychic against heavy psychic can be game changing? That's called... Contributing..

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Big models have existed for quite some time, the IG Baneblade has been around for 8 years now, but we aren't seeing them flying off shelves or being included in lists with the frequency of things like Knights or Wraithknights because they're largely sanely costed.

The Baneblade chassis is criminally overpriced. This thing costs 360 points, and a Wraithknight costs 295 pts. An Imperial Knight costs 350 points. A Baneblade costs something like 600 points, roughly twice as much as the Tau or Eldar counterpart. Cut all Baneblade points in half, to where it's comparable to this Tau suit, and squadron them like this Tau suit, and I guarantee that you will see them fly off the shelves.

That was exactly my point...these big models are coming out at very low points costs relative to their abilities.

Cutting the Baneblade's base price in half would put it at !~260pts, only about 50-60pts above a kitted Leman Russ variant. A Banehammer cut in half would cost less than what a Pask-Punisher would cost.

And Baneblade-chassis vehicles typically aren't near 600pts, some are as cheap as 410pts. A couple might be a smidge overcosted, primarily the original Baneblade (since for some reason they *raised* it's cost), but as a whole they're relatively sanely costed.

Nobody thought they were overcosted until *very* recently. They matched a trio of Russ tanks generally fairly well in capability, resiliency, and price. It wasn't until we started getting things like Wraithknights at sub-300pts that people started to think Baneblades equivalent tanks were overcosted.

Sorry, all, wall-o-text incoming...

The big units are generally not unfairly costed - they are fairly designed and competitively costed. The only problem is that you're bringing a rusty fork (an overpriced Guard Codex) to the battle, not a shiny new sword (i.e. Decurion, Craftworld, Knights, Marines) - that's your fault for not surfing the meta.

Fairly priced, the BB variants should come in around 300-350 points (roughly half of 600), with 2 sponsons or AV14 side included.

And the Leman Russ? Hold on a sec. In the Leman Russ thread, didn't some random goofball state that the majority of Russ variants are overcosted?

the LRBT and Demolisher are basically too expensive as single weapon platforms and non-functional with other weapons, the Vanquisher is actually amusingly bad at being an anti-tank unit with the way vehicle kill works now, the Executioner is simply far too likely to kill itself (over a 6 turn game a plasma equipped tank will kill itself on average without the enemy having to do anything), and the FW Annihilator faces the same problem the Vanquisher does.

Pretending for a moment that quote is accurate *and* the poster actually knows something about the Imperial Guard, *and* that he has some reasonable clue what Leman Russ tank variants ought to cost for how they perform in the current meta. If so, the LRBT should be more like 125 pts, and 140 for the Demolisher, instead of the overpriced 150 & 170. With the Leman Russ baseline corrected, a Baneblade should be priced like a Leman Russ + a Demolisher combined, as that is the best match for what it is. So again, in the 350 pts range, just like all of the other big toys.

As for how much one pays for Paskquisher? Don't care. He shouldn't even exist as an option in any Codex, so yes, price him to the moon, but don't use him as any sort of rational reference point when we talk balance.


Finally, that 600 pt Baneblade cost is more correct than not.

According to Army Builder, I have the Baneblade (Apoc 6E) at 575 pts when fitted with 2 sponsons, 625 with 4 sponsons. Only under Escalation is the BB at 525 points with 2 sponsons, but it's back up at 625 with 4 sponsons. Near as I can tell, GW pegs the Baneblade at 600-ish points, and has done so pretty consistently since the first FW models came out over a decade ago. Over 8+ years, the BB has been a modeling / collector mainstay, but never competitive, because it's always been 600-ish points when fitted properly (and 4 sponsons is always the correct fit for a Baneblade). The recent sanity in pricing things like the IK and WK has only highlighted how badly-priced the BB has been.

The Transport 40 Stormlord? 530 pts with 2 sponsons; 580 fitted properly with 4 sponsons. As a semi-mobile bunker it's not bad, but again, 600-ish points.

Sure, the Shadowsword can be as little as 505-ish points (A6 / Esc), but it's not anywhere close to pulling its weight when compared with a 720-pt Warhound Titan with a max Turbolaser fit. And the "free" option for Targeters vs Lascannon? Ugh.

But what do you get for 410 pts? Banehammer. For which you sitll need to pay +50 pts for the sponsons, making the real price 460 pts, not 410. Firepower is barely equal to a pair of regular Russes, but it adds Transport 25? Sorry, no.


And the counterpoint to any/all of them? The Imperial Knight.

For 375 pts, you get a basic Knight Paladin, with a double-shot Battlecannon *and* a S(D) CCW. For +50 pts, upgrade the CCW for an Avenger Gatling Cannon. And/or tack on secondary weapon systems, which are generally good for points.


It's not the Wraithknight that obsoleted the Baneblade, but the Imperial Knights cannibalizing their own. This Tau thing weighing in at 360-400 pts only reinforces the price / power point that these kinds of things should sit at. And even if the WK were points bumped to 350 pts, it wouldn't change how bad the Baneblade family is.


tl;dr

1. Baneblade is overpriced, should cost 300-350 pts base, 350-400 with 4 sponsons.
2. Leman Russ is overpriced, should cost 125-150 pts base, 150-180 full kit.
3. Tau Knight is fairly priced.
4. Wraithknight is not really a problem.
5. Imperial Knight is fairly priced.

I want my Baneblades to be playable, competitive Codex:IG entries, just like this suit will be for the Tau. Thank you.

 vercingatorix wrote:
What would a tau suit that was a titan killer be armed with?

I'm just thinking that if it was actually capable of ending a wraithknight in one turn it would be "the new wraithknight".

If a GC with 10 strength 10 ignore cover api shot cannon dropped it would be absolutely devastating to everything. Basically, you can't put enough firepower to kill a wraithknight on a model or it would murder the lesser races even worse.

No need to kill a WK in 1 turn, but in 2.
2 Super-heavy Railguns, each with 1 shot SD and a SD large blast option with gets hot. Not 4d6 S5 stuff that will never hurt a super-heavy.