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Damn. So whiteshield more resistant to Chaos than Rune priests confirmed!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.

That kinda falls flat when it's contradicted by the other parts of the fluff that have people fight Chaos and not get purged. the Gaunt's Ghosts series for example, you have Guardsmen fight Chaos Marines and Daemons and not get purged despite doing so on multiple occasions. In fact knowledge of Chaos seems to be pretty common knowledge in the Imperial Guard. I'm pretty sure Cadia doesn't get completely purged every time a Chaos warband launches a raid. Those are just a couple of examples I pulled off the top of my head.

I think the whole piece of fluff with Armageddon really seems like a relic of older 40k lore that got kept around in later editions despite the contradictions of it..

Yeah that ^ it just makes the GK and Ordo Malleus really come off as cowards.

Gree wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

The survivors of Armageddon were liabilities. Any one of them be corrupted by Chaos knowingly or unknowingly. It's the big part of the Inquisition. They kill millions to save billions.

That kinda falls flat when it's contradicted by the other parts of the fluff that have people fight Chaos and not get purged. the Gaunt's Ghosts series for example, you have Guardsmen fight Chaos Marines and Daemons and not get purged despite doing so on multiple occasions. In fact knowledge of Chaos seems to be pretty common knowledge in the Imperial Guard. I'm pretty sure Cadia doesn't get completely purged every time a Chaos warband launches a raid. Those are just a couple of examples I pulled off the top of my head.

I think the whole piece of fluff with Armageddon really seems like a relic of older 40k lore that got kept around in later editions despite the contradictions of it..

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

As for Cadia, from the Eisenhorn book we know that Chaos Cults spring up on Cadia ALL of the time. There are hundreds of Inquisitors stationed on Cadia who work entirely and only within Cadia to prevent and route out these cults, Armegeddon doesn't get this special treatment.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".

I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.

(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)

It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.

While I agree exterminating all the planets that had contact with Refugees was an Inquistorial power play and was unnecessary, it is also completely unforgivable for the Wolves to move against the Inquisition as they did. The Emperor created the Inquisition because they are a human solution to a human problem (even Xenos and Mallus work on the human understanding and impact), Space Marines are not human. They did not understand the danger they put everyone in by letting those refugees go because in their psycho-indoctrinated minds saw the culling as dishonourable.

A khornate daemonic incursion releases waves of hatred and murderlust, as shown by the masses of cultists Angron managed to snatch up on his way to Armegeddon, worlds fell into his hands simply by the bow wave of emotion his presence evoked. So when he poped up on Armegeddon with his full force, it's a fair bet that the majority or citizens on the planet were touched by Chaotic Influence. You forget influence isn't a physical thing, the population doesn't have to come into contact with Chaos to be send mad by it, they just need to be in the proximity.

As for people knowing about the Horus heresy, it seems knowledge is divided. Everyone knows Horus went bad as people use him as a By-word for the Devil or Lucifer (''Horus take you'') and most people know about Traitor Marines. But they don't know about Daemons and ergo don't know about Daemon Primarchs. Of course Guard fight traitor marines, but guard are also heavily monitored by the Commissariate and priests/preachers therefore they are more resistent (or at least more likely to be routed out) to chaotic influences. It's only when something big comes there way, such as Skarbad, Angron or some such that they are out of their depth and considered compromised.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While I agree exterminating all the planets that had contact with Refugees was an Inquistorial power play and was unnecessary, it is also completely unforgivable for the Wolves to move against the Inquisition as they did. The Emperor created the Inquisition because they are a human solution to a human problem (even Xenos and Mallus work on the human understanding and impact), Space Marines are not human. They did not understand the danger they put everyone in by letting those refugees go because in their psycho-indoctrinated minds saw the culling as dishonourable.

Nah, I have much respect for the Space Wolves for standing up to the Inquisition and actually getting away with it. Those guys are heck of alot more human than many of the "baseline" humans in the Imperium, for which I hold them in high regard. And they had an Inquisitor supporting them as well, so it's not like the Inquisition was even united like that in the novel. I'd also question the whole founding of the Inquisition, given that we have multiple versions of it shrouded in myth.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

A khornate daemonic incursion releases waves of hatred and murderlust, as shown by the masses of cultists Angron managed to snatch up on his way to Armegeddon, worlds fell into his hands simply by the bow wave of emotion his presence evoked. So when he poped up on Armegeddon with his full force, it's a fair bet that the majority or citizens on the planet were touched by Chaotic Influence. You forget influence isn't a physical thing, the population doesn't have to come into contact with Chaos to be send mad by it, they just need to be in the proximity.

Can you provide sources and quotes on worlds just going spontaneously traitor in rebellion?

I don't buy that Armageddon was as corrupted as you claim. If it had, there would have been no Imperial forces on the planet to reinforce when the Wolves got there, much less to fight against the Chaotic hordes.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

As for people knowing about the Horus heresy, it seems knowledge is divided. Everyone knows Horus went bad as people use him as a By-word for the Devil or Lucifer (''Horus take you'') and most people know about Traitor Marines. But they don't know about Daemons and ergo don't know about Daemon Primarchs. Of course Guard fight traitor marines, but guard are also heavily monitored by the Commissariate and priests/preachers therefore they are more resistent (or at least more likely to be routed out) to chaotic influences. It's only when something big comes there way, such as Skarbad, Angron or some such that they are out of their depth and considered compromised.

Nah, it's retcons of older lore. Gaunt, Cain and others know about Daemons and don't get purged. It's just a relic of older fluff where knowing about Chaos was something that got you purged in the Inquisition. It wasn't as present for many years after 2nd edition, but Mat Ward brought it back in 5th edition and it's caused all sorts of continuity snarls with other sources. According to the Grey Knights Codex, Guardsmen who fight Chaos always get killed after the battle to prevent them from being tainted, never mind all the contradictions in various Black Library.

Really it's just a silly piece of fluff that I personally prefer to disregard when writing lore for my own homebrew narrative.

Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.

Instances of worlds going traitor spontaneously are actually rather frequent and it even occurs in the First War for Armegeddon. ''The insidious effects of Chaos were quickly felt as nearly half the Planetary Defence Force went over to the invaders''. Another example is the Lith from Eisenhorn, a Chaotic artifact that that was uncovered and subsequently turned everyone on the planet into it's cult. A further example is Skarbrand who ''Skarbrand would materialize on the Cadian-held Fortress World of Lutoris Epsilon. His berserk rage would go on to infect all he surveys, driving the Guardsmen defending the planet to turn on each other in mad frenzies''.

Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.

Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.

I much prefer Chaos this way, it's insidious and warping. It shouldn't be an enemy you can just fight because Chaos *is* the truth ripping down the lie an Imperial Citizen has lived their entire lives. Every day chaos? A cult, traitor legions or a small scale daemonic incurion you can assume Guard can handle themselves. But the big stuff? Of which Angron certainly qualifies, should shred the minds of unprotected men. Not to mention Angron was continuously building warp shrines to Khorne to saturate the earth with warp power enough to keep him materialized.

Once again, Armegeddon was a hell-scape by the end. The Citizens and Guard deployments were compromised.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.

If I may be blunt? I don't believe what you say and you are very unlikely to change my opinion on this. If you are trying to convince me to change my stance, then you are quite bluntly wasting your time.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.

Why not? It doesn't seem to be any harder than the process of exterminating them and then resettling it. It certainly should be easier than tracking countless different refugees across a galaxy. IT's not like it would be impossible for the Imperium to do either, as the Imperium does suffer major Chaos invasions without completely purging everything. If Angron and the the daemons are gone then the major threat is gone and any investigation can be handled at leisure.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.

I don't consider them to be that remarkable though. Gaunt and Cain aren't more important than an entire planet's worth of people and their soldiers under their common sure as heck aren't. In Gaunt's case that's kinda the point, that he's been passed over promotion before. Those are of course the most immediate examples that spring to mind. Black Library and other lore is rife with Guard engaging Chaos incursions and not getting purged the second the battle is over. Heck, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series they have an entire massive Crusade dedicated to solely fighting a large Chaos-worshiping empire in a Segmentum. We've had examples of planet's under long-term Chaos and daemonic occuption being liberated by Imperial forces and the population is not exterminated to the last man.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

I much prefer Chaos this way, it's insidious and warping. It shouldn't be an enemy you can just fight because Chaos *is* the truth ripping down the lie an Imperial Citizen has lived their entire lives. Every day chaos? A cult, traitor legions or a small scale daemonic incurion you can assume Guard can handle themselves. But the big stuff? Of which Angron certainly qualifies, should shred the minds of unprotected men. Not to mention Angron was continuously building warp shrines to Khorne to saturate the earth with warp power enough to keep him materialized.

I don't particularly think that Imperial Citizens live a lie either. Rather I subscribe to the whole "Armor of Contempt" that Ravenor puts out. I don't really think Angron had that much influence. Sure you had Chaos cults present, but Chaos cults are present everywhere in the Imperium. I don't think Angron or his monoliths where anywhere near the majority of the population in question. In fact I don't think the Imperium even knew about the Monoliths given that they where present centuries later.

If Armageddon didn't go over en mass then obviously if was still salvageable. It might have been bad, but I'm not especially convinced it's that worse than any of the other warp incursions that happen and the population isn't slaughtered in mass. Otherwise we would see the entire Segmentum Obscuras routinely purged by the Inquisition after every major daemonic incursion.

The whole exterminate if become aware of Choas falls down in pretty much every piece of other fluff than the oldest incarnation of the Grey Knights and the (IMO) awful 5th Ed Grey Knights - especially when you consider Cadia............

Or Vraks for that matter.

Or even their own codex.

Eye of the Storm (976.M35) - A Warp Storm descends on the Rorn System in the wake of the Pallid Prince and his Daemon host. A squad of Grey Knights are trapped by the storm on the Rorn Primarex shipyard, having destroyed the Pallid Prince and his Warp-iron vessel. Unwilling to risk discovery by the citizens of Rorn III, and denied Warp travel by the storm, the Grey Knights set out into the void at sub-light speeds, the Battle-Brothers entering stasis for their millennia-long voyage back to Titan.

Garanhir Rebellion (649.M40) - A World Eaters warband, under the command of the notorious murderer Dhalahk, launches a mass incursion against the world of Garanhir, intent upon spilling the blood of the faithful in an unprecedented act of veneration of the Blood God. Expecting to find Garanhir unprepared for attack and ripe for the slaughter, what the Khornate Berserkers actually encounter as they charge from the assault ramps of their drop craft is a world already claimed by war, the populace armed and led by the famously militant Inquisitor Malphas Kroh and bolstered by a force of Grey Knights Space Marines. Battle is joined without delay, and while the warriors of Dhalahk make a lethal account of themselves, they are ultimately slain, the entire warband cut down by the defenders.

The Cleansing of Acralem (799.M41) - The notorious Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn launches an attack on the world of Acralem, seeking to claim it as a throne world from which he can carve an empire. Acting on an Inquisitional request, the Grey Knights spearhead the Imperium's counter-offensive, and in the final battle the young Kaldor Draigo makes his name by banishing the Daemon Prince.

The Raxos Civil War (841.M41)

In all these instances the Grey Knights are trying to save lives and in one of them explicitly avoid taking the lives of civilians who presumably saw Chaos. Armageddon was an outlier in fluff, made just so the Space Wolves could do something heroic and amazing... again.

It was bad writing that was never corroborated with any of the other fluff.

I think the whole thing with Armageddon comes from the fact that one inquisitor went mad. The inquisition would have most likely declared him a traitor like Cryptman. But the Wilves have disobeyed higher authority and the inquisition could not have tollerated it.

The whole exterminate if become aware of Choas falls down in pretty much every piece of other fluff than the oldest incarnation of the Grey Knights and the (IMO) awful 5th Ed Grey Knights - especially when you consider Cadia............

It's a question of aware of the Chaos Gods and the Daemonic.

Gunning down a few thousand frenzied half-mutant barbarians with ill-maintained autoguns and tattoo-ed on stars is not an issue.

Knowing that the gods they shout prayers to are real, actually reward their followers with immortality if only you abandon the Emperor and serve them, and that the 'daemons' warned about in ecclesiarchy mythology are real, can take physical form and walk on the worlds of the Imperium, and are almost unstoppable by any force of arms available to the Imperium - and that even the half-deified Primarchs can be corrupted.... that's an issue.

Given that all backgrounds official written (from the Chaos Attack rulebook for the Battle For Armageddon expansion which first introduced this war onwards) talk about chaos cults and armed revolts, there was a significant cultist presence. Also, given the 'weird stuff' which had occurred, and the warp storm, and daemonic presence, the Inquisition couldn't rule out Angron and his armies having been specifically summoned there - meaning that the chaos cults active on Armageddon weren't just disaffected terrorists and rebels but might include people who actually knew how daemonology and sorcerous ritual worked.

Also note that the surviving monoliths (based off the 3rd war campaign maps) were in deep jungle between primus and secundus. We have never known how many monoliths were constructed on the other continent (swiftly overrun) and were subsequently cleansed by the Imperium's quarantined labour forces.

I think the whole thing with Armageddon comes from the fact that one inquisitor went mad. The inquisition would have most likely declared him a traitor like Cryptman. But the Wilves have disobeyed higher authority and the inquisition could not have tollerated it.

Not in the slightest; exterminate guard regiments who have encountered an extremis-level moral threat is pretty much standard Inquisitorial doctrine and has been since the Inquisition and the Grey Knights has been a thing.

The Inquisitor was not mad in the slightest. That's why Grimnar challenged him on that point at their first meeting; he knew exactly what the Inquisition's orders would be and why but insisted he had the right to change it "Because We're Special."

Also, don't forget, people aren't remembering right what the Inquisition was trying to do.

The deal - which, don't forget, Grimnar agreed to - was that the populace of Armageddon would be spared.

The Inquisition did that. The world was quarantined - essentially the current populace were sterilised and put into forced labour as the 'clean-up crew' and restoring its industry then another generation introduced from off-world to pick up where the industrial capacity of the hive world had been left off.

The forces which were to be liquidated were the guardsmen who'd fought on the Styx/Charon line - which given the way Grimnar fought - specifically pushing the battlefield to the west to avoid the civilians seeing it. The very fact that he felt the need to do that, however, then underlines that trying to evacuate those same soldiers under the wolves' fleets, smacks of a bit hypocritical.

And yet Cadia still sits next to the Eye of Terror and has all the same issues with witnessing as do all the many many examples of Guardsmen (and other Imperial factions) fighting and surviving Daemons and then be lauded for it.

Various Astartes Chapters have feuds with Daemons - so its not like that knowledge is secret. There are quire a few examples that the GK's don't kill all the combatants that have fought Daemons.

Gree wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Apologies if you won't except Lexicantum as a source (it's essentially the 40K wikipedia, accurate in the vast majority but not 100%) but I've lost access to my original books for the week.

If I may be blunt? I don't believe what you say and you are very unlikely to change my opinion on this. If you are trying to convince me to change my stance, then you are quite bluntly wasting your time.

Well, don't expect that to be anything other than your headcanon, if you're willing to disbelieve that actual canon sources, with proved references, are false. I now have a very hard time taking anything what you say seriously. Even when someone provide you with evidence, you choose to ignore it. Therefore, I could "choose" to ignore any evidence you cite in the form of Gaunt and Cain (Cain, who is a near-parody like figure in the canon)

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Indeed Armegeddon may not of been as corrupt as this, but it had the possibility and the precedence to be. I can totally understand why an Inquisitor wouldn't take the risk, otherwise he'd have to arrange for every single survivor to be psychically checked for corruption.

Why not? It doesn't seem to be any harder than the process of exterminating them and then resettling it. It certainly should be easier than tracking countless different refugees across a galaxy. IT's not like it would be impossible for the Imperium to do either, as the Imperium does suffer major Chaos invasions without completely purging everything. If Angron and the the daemons are gone then the major threat is gone and any investigation can be handled at leisure.

Leisure until another cult takes over another planet.
Armageddon's status as a vital world in the area is worth a very thorough cleansing, lest it happen all over again. Plus, blowing up a planet is quicker than searching through all the people on that planet individually, or fighting a war to cleanse it of the Chaos cults you let spread.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Gaunt and Cain are undeniably remarkable people. They are also people in high stature who themselves have dealings with the Inquisition, this is a silly argument as they are obviously not to be considered the norm.

I don't consider them to be that remarkable though. Gaunt and Cain aren't more important than an entire planet's worth of people and their soldiers under their common sure as heck aren't. In Gaunt's case that's kinda the point, that he's been passed over promotion before. Those are of course the most immediate examples that spring to mind. Black Library and other lore is rife with Guard engaging Chaos incursions and not getting purged the second the battle is over. Heck, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series they have an entire massive Crusade dedicated to solely fighting a large Chaos-worshiping empire in a Segmentum. We've had examples of planet's under long-term Chaos and daemonic occuption being liberated by Imperial forces and the population is not exterminated to the last man.

As we see.

Also, they are actually are remarkable, in the very fact we know of them. How many Commissars like them do we know? And how many don't we know? We only hear about the notable ones, the ones with plot armour. If we had a book of the life of a typical Commissar, executions would be far more frequent in the book, and we'd be very lucky to get a sequel. A third book would be near miraculous. They may not be so important in the universe, but they are still notable figures in a literary sense.

My view?
The Inquisitor was overzealous. That much is correct. But at least he had some basis: Chaos is unbelievably corrupting, far more than any of us here could estimate.
The wolves? They caused the loss of life, if only their blind pride could see that they would cause far more damage to the Imperium than a "better safe than sorry" purge. They overstepped their mark, and should have suffered by going against the will of the Emperor's chosen, the Grey Knights and Inquisition. But, because of plot armour, they get away with it. Wolves should have been crippled by the Imperium and made to go on a Penitence Crusade. THAT would have made them more badass and respected by me - not only have they realised their wrongs and been humbled by it, but they could have also survived a Penitence Crusade against Chaos (for extra irony, against World Eaters or Khorne Daemons)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Well, don't expect that to be anything other than your headcanon, if you're willing to disbelieve that actual canon sources, with proved references, are false. I now have a very hard time taking anything what you say seriously. Even when someone provide you with evidence, you choose to ignore it. Therefore, I could "choose" to ignore any evidence you cite in the form of Gaunt and Cain (Cain, who is a near-parody like figure in the canon)

Good for you then. I wasn't really trying to convince anybody of some particular argument. I was just stating my view of things. So yeah, I was stating my headcanon. One of 40k's lore defining features was the vast variety of contradictory fluff and lore, which was essentially my point, that the Armageddon fluff doesn't mesh well with the examples from Gaunt and Cain. So yeah, I am completely fine with ignoring lore I don't like and I'm completely fine with people ignoring lore they don't like. It happens all the time. Half the people on this board prefer to ignore the existence of Mat Ward for example.

I don't consider me warning him to be unreasonable. Such is the internet. People are stubborn. Posters on this forum will rarely change their opinion. I'm sure both me and him are busy people with their own lives who don't want to be stuck in an argument ad nauseum. I think it only fair to warn someone that they are rather bluntly wasting their time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Leisure until another cult takes over another planet.
Armageddon's status as a vital world in the area is worth a very thorough cleansing, lest it happen all over again. Plus, blowing up a planet is quicker than searching through all the people on that planet individually, or fighting a war to cleanse it of the Chaos cults you let spread.

Preventing said cult is kinda why Inquisitorial investigations exist in the first place.

And no, their not blowing up the planet. Their essentially committing genocide, something that quickly extended to many other planets and systems across the galaxy, something that by scale alone would have been more resource extensive than looking through the population, which almost by definition the Inquisition should have practice with.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, they are actually are remarkable, in the very fact we know of them. How many Commissars like them do we know? And how many don't we know? We only hear about the notable ones, the ones with plot armour. If we had a book of the life of a typical Commissar, executions would be far more frequent in the book, and we'd be very lucky to get a sequel. A third book would be near miraculous. They may not be so important in the universe, but they are still notable figures in a literary sense.

Gaunt and Cain are not the example of a typical Commissar, but it's hard to believe that either of them are worth more than a planet. Then we also have the example of their fighting men under their command who do fight Daemons and Chaos Marines without being executed. It also doesn't really ignore the massive anti-Chaos crusade fighting to liberate worlds in the Sabbat worlds that where under Chaos or daemonic domination.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

My view?
The Inquisitor was overzealous. That much is correct. But at least he had some basis: Chaos is unbelievably corrupting, far more than any of us here could estimate.
The wolves? They caused the loss of life, if only their blind pride could see that they would cause far more damage to the Imperium than a "better safe than sorry" purge. They overstepped their mark, and should have suffered by going against the will of the Emperor's chosen, the Grey Knights and Inquisition. But, because of plot armour, they get away with it. Wolves should have been crippled by the Imperium and made to go on a Penitence Crusade. THAT would have made them more badass and respected by me - not only have they realised their wrongs and been humbled by it, but they could have also survived a Penitence Crusade against Chaos (for extra irony, against World Eaters or Khorne Daemons)

If that's your opinion, then you are welcome to it.

Suffice to say I do not agree and thus I am fine with dismissing the whole Armageddon business as a silly relic of outdated lore.

Suffice to say I do not agree and thus I am fine with dismissing the whole Armageddon business as a silly relic of outdated lore.

I think it works as

1) An inquisitor making a decision based on certain worries- once made he won't go back on it
2) He is using it as a way to try and back the Wolves into defying the Imperium so they cna be slapped down
3) Its 40k sometimes people do horrible things for dubious reasons or because they think its for the best - hey it happens in our world too........

@Gree

For the record, I think you may have jumped over my initial point. I proposed Armegeddon as a special case scenario based on the fact Angron was present. Correct me if I am wrong, but this was the largest confrontation between a Daemon Primarch and the loyalists since the heresy (I'm of the opinion this was greater then Magnus materialising on Fenris for a little while) and that to make marks this as a stand
out occurrence. No one here is suggesting Regiments get exterminated for fighting chaos, what we are suggesting is that Angron and the hell he unleashed upon Armegeddon was FAR above a Guardsmen's payscale mentally to be expected to remain uncompromised. Armegeddon was a special case scenario that warranted (or at least partially condoned) the Inquisitors actions where a lesser Daemoninc incursion would not.

I might not be able to change your opinion on that, but it's worth reiterating my initial point in case I blabbled over it and you missed it.

I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.

They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!

They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.

Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.

They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!

They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.

Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.

Only, to fight against a daemon primarch is to invite corruption and taint. Sure, they fought well, but you don't survive an encounter with such a powerful entity to escape unaffected. They *could* be trained, but here is a high chance that they are pretty tainted by the encounter. And the Inquisition already HAS a dedicated daemon hunter cadre - the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. Why risk the taint when you already have men perfectly capable, and untaintable (as we know).

Here's my way of looking at it: You have a man with an incredibly infectious disease. He survives the disease, and it doesn't kill him. However, he becomes a host for it's body, and behaviour will warp and change the more he lives. He is identical to your case of Armageddon. He's survived, but is forever a risk to himself and those around him, majorly so. It is no longer in his control, and thus one must be killed to save thousands.

And the Grek Knights ARE the shining light. Of purity. And those tainted by the presence are not pure. The Grey Knights don't do things for the good of Humans, they do it for the good of the Imperium, and thus HUMANITY. And their action is not born out of fear at all. Suppose, a man with a massive nuclear device lodged in his body. The device could go off any second. The device cannot be deactivated or disarmed unless you kill the man it is inside. That bomb might wipe the surface of the world clean or could just be a dud. You are a Grey Knight. What do you do? Are you a coward for saving the planet? Do you want to take the risk that the bomb is only a dud?


What the GK did is not cowardly - brutal, yes, but the Imperium continues due to such brutal and preventive measures.

#LightIsNotGood

Very much so. The Chambers Militant of the Inquisition are the 'Do What Needs To Be Done' people. They are most definitely not 'The Good Guys'.

To be fair, some of the gak the Deathwatch gets asked to do is even worse.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'd think the fact mortal human men and women held their own against a daemonic Primarch should of earned them respect. At minimum they should of been incorporated as a fighting force into the Inquisition because they held on against Khornate daemons, the best hand to hand combat specialists daemon kind has, with supped up flashlights and knives.

They certainly shouldn't of gotten spayed and neutered, and force worked to death on a dirtball far from the home they FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL FOR!

They shouldn't have been hunted down like animals by Grey Knights who were SUPPOSED TO THE SHINING LIGHT against daemonkind.

Instead the Grey Knights CAVED into FEAR of what MIGHT be taint, with NO PROOF. They are for lack of any better words, COWARDS. They are cowards. Pure and simple.

Only, to fight against a daemon primarch is to invite corruption and taint. Sure, they fought well, but you don't survive an encounter with such a powerful entity to escape unaffected. They *could* be trained, but here is a high chance that they are pretty tainted by the encounter. And the Inquisition already HAS a dedicated daemon hunter cadre - the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. Why risk the taint when you already have men perfectly capable, and untaintable (as we know).

Here's my way of looking at it: You have a man with an incredibly infectious disease. He survives the disease, and it doesn't kill him. However, he becomes a host for it's body, and behaviour will warp and change the more he lives. He is identical to your case of Armageddon. He's survived, but is forever a risk to himself and those around him, majorly so. It is no longer in his control, and thus one must be killed to save thousands.

And the Grek Knights ARE the shining light. Of purity. And those tainted by the presence are not pure. The Grey Knights don't do things for the good of Humans, they do it for the good of the Imperium, and thus HUMANITY. And their action is not born out of fear at all. Suppose, a man with a massive nuclear device lodged in his body. The device could go off any second. The device cannot be deactivated or disarmed unless you kill the man it is inside. That bomb might wipe the surface of the world clean or could just be a dud. You are a Grey Knight. What do you do? Are you a coward for saving the planet? Do you want to take the risk that the bomb is only a dud?


What the GK did is not cowardly - brutal, yes, but the Imperium continues due to such brutal and preventive measures.

No it was cowardly, they had a fear that the people might be tainted, not even proven, or detected, which Inquisitors and trained psykers can root out. Which separates this from a disease. And it certainly wasn't good for humanity to destroy all those planets and resources and manpower the Imperium needs just because of a fear.

The bomb allegory only works if you say he 'might' have a bomb, he 'might' not in his body, but when we scan for it, or do any sort of search there is no evidence of it. Even then 'those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither' (granted freedom in 40 is an alien concept but the point of acting on what ifs and maybes holds true)

EVEN THEN, forced sterilization, ripped from their homes, stripped of everything they owned and shoved into what is basically an Auschwitz on a planetary scale, for people that fought so hard, I feel is cowardly. It's even worse when you realize that if the Grey Knights had it their way, all the credit for winning the war, would of gone to them and them alone. Despite not really doing anything to help while the Wolves and humans did all the real fighting.

That is nice you feel that way, but they felt a different way on what is necessary.

Also all the fluff tells us that you cannot detect the taint of chaos until it either manifests or is unnaturally powerful.

There was a GK book (I forgot which, it was pretty short) where a GK Librarian was having trouble telling whether a Inquisitor was carrying a Chaos relic. All they had to go on was that the Emperor's Tarot stated that a disaster was to occur in that location. Lo and behold the Inquisitor was carrying it. Then on the ship they could not locate the lab a Nurgle plague was coming from. If a Librarian of the Grey Knights was having trouble detecting a strong taint of Chaos, I imagine everyone else is going to have a even worse time processing millions upon millions.

Also this line of yours.

" It's even worse when you realize that if the Grey Knights had it their way, all the credit for winning the war, would of gone to them and them alone. Despite not really doing anything to help while the Wolves and humans did all the real fighting."

BS. They are a secret, there is no glory besides the tolling of the Bell of Lost Souls for their passage. Also the Wolves felt differently in that the Knights were needed. Take it up with them.

Armageddon was a outlier in fluff. No one takes it seriously.

They seek glory for themselves, and one source will have them a big secret and another go "Yeah Grey Knights!" when they arrive.

Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.

I get annoyed when people down the Wolves, and their sometimes over the top silliness, but then act like the GK are the best thing since sliced bread. Their fluff is god awful, by far and above the worst of all the asartes, At least if you are knee dead in it with a wolf, you don't have to worry him capping you in the back of the head the moment the day is won.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
They seek glory for themselves, and one source will have them a big secret and another go "Yeah Grey Knights!" when they arrive.

Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.

I get annoyed when people down the Wolves, and their sometimes over the top silliness, but then act like the GK are the best thing since sliced bread. Their fluff is god awful, by far and above the worst of all the asartes, At least if you are knee dead in it with a wolf, you don't have to worry him capping you in the back of the head the moment the day is won.

Thats a cool opinion you have on the furry marines. I mean at least the Space Wolves don't go around doing the most inane things and get away with it right?

Gree wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".

I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.

(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)

It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.

That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.

 Psienesis wrote:

Gree wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".

I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.

(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)

It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.

That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.

Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Gree wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".

I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.

(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)

It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.

That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.

Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.

Can we have the name of those times? Because I remember the way it goes in the SW codex is...

1. Ally dies/Impending disaster
2. Space Wolves are on verge of losing
3. More Space Wolves arrive
4. Victory
5. (optional) Space Wolves fight Allies