Curse of the Wulfen novel - Spoilers (I guess)

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**KingmanHighborn**

Space Wolves lost to the Red Corsairs.

**Brennonjw**

KingmanHighborn wrote:
Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.

Tardy to the party, BUT fear =/= cowardice. Also: welcome to the grimdark that is 40k, where the good get screwed and the morally ambiguous have to make gakky decisions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:

Can we have the name of those times? Because I remember the way it goes in the SW codex is...

1. Ally dies/Impending disaster
2. Space Wolves are on verge of losing
3. More Space Wolves arrive
4. Victory
5. (optional) Space Wolves fight Allies

Grimnar got dicked by Trayzin in Grimnar's own codex supplement

**KingmanHighborn**

Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.

**Brennonjw**

KingmanHighborn wrote:
Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.

I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.

Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.

**Quickjager**

Brennonjw wrote:
KingmanHighborn wrote:
Still the Ends didn't justify the Means, and they acted on fear. Thus...cowards.

Tardy to the party, BUT fear =/= cowardice. Also: welcome to the grimdark that is 40k, where the good get screwed and the morally ambiguous have to make gakky decisions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:

Can we have the name of those times? Because I remember the way it goes in the SW codex is...

1. Ally dies/Impending disaster
2. Space Wolves are on verge of losing
3. More Space Wolves arrive
4. Victory
5. (optional) Space Wolves fight Allies

Grimnar got dicked by Trayzin in Grimnar's own codex supplement

Was that the one where Trayzin was getting a C'tan Shard?

**KingmanHighborn**

Brennonjw wrote:
KingmanHighborn wrote:
Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.

I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.

Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.

No I seriously hate the Grey Knights. And again they didn't save the people, and didn't have to kill them, and killed them off in the most brutal inhumane ways possible. It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.

What I'm trying to nail home is they acted on a 'maybe', with no good proof, no signs of taint, no nothing, they straight up turned genocidal on them because they were afraid they 'might' be tainted but again their fluff is written that they are such goody goody special snowflakes they can't be corrupted by the same events.

And yet you got people downing the Wolves and keep in mind I don't play them, because of their fluff, and the way their stuff is named. It's mind boggling. There is simply no way what the Grey Knights did could of stayed secret either. But again they are such special infallible Mary Sues, that it irks the

out of me.

**Casti**

Well after reading the book, i am happy to see the changling having a bit of fun while standing in the same room as Azrael. Apart from this highlight, it really seemed to me to be a book trying to say how awesome wolves were and how cool and tough they are. The chaos enemies seemed dull and unimaginative which diminishes the efforts and bravery of the wolves. The wolves never seemed in danger at any given time and even came off rather mary sue at times. I guess i have read the book knowing that the wolves, despite having obvious and highly dangerous mutants in their ranks, will still be loyal imperial forces and not excommunicated like other loyal forces of the imperium have been.

What i would like to see is the wolves losing fenris and either going on a penitent crusade or go excommunicated but still loyal to the imperium. What will happenis that the imperial forces will kiss and make up and the wulfen will be quitely ignored cos of plot reasons.

Also bjorn fighting on the astral plane....... Dafudge???

**tneva82**

KingmanHighborn wrote:
It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.

You assume having chaos have their way with them isn't worse fate than death...

...Also you are assuming that it's not going to result in even worse shape for rest of the humanity.

Imperium operates on the assumption that better 1 to suffer than 10,000. They have manpower to spare so they rather waste human life than take chance with worse result. That's the way whole imperium is geared up.

You have problem with grey knights? Take it up with imperium. They do what the imperium wants. This isn't GK only policy. It's policy of the entire imperium. No chances whatsoever with chaos. Better to lose millions than risk it. They can afford to lose the millions.

**Psienesis**

KingmanHighborn wrote:
Brennonjw wrote:
KingmanHighborn wrote:
Actually 'And They Shall Know No Fear;...except in this case, in which they did know fear and acted cowardly on it.

I'm getting the vibe that you're screwing with people, and doing it pretty well all things considered.

Making the decision to end the lives that you just risked yours to save, all so that you can potentially save an exponentially larger number of lives is far from cowardly.

No I seriously hate the Grey Knights. And again they didn't save the people, and didn't have to kill them, and killed them off in the most brutal inhumane ways possible. It would of been better to die fighting Chaos, then ripped from your home, sterilized and dumped out into a forced labor camp to be worked and starved to death.

What I'm trying to nail home is they acted on a 'maybe', with no good proof, no signs of taint, no nothing, they straight up turned genocidal on them because they were afraid they 'might' be tainted but again their fluff is written that they are such goody goody special snowflakes they can't be corrupted by the same events.

And yet you got people downing the Wolves and keep in mind I don't play them, because of their fluff, and the way their stuff is named. It's mind boggling. There is simply no way what the Grey Knights did could of stayed secret either. But again they are such special infallible Mary Sues, that it irks the out of me.

Welcome to 40K. Acting on a "maybe" is how you survive.

Some pertinent 40k quotes/Imperial Thoughts For the Day:

"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
"There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small."
"Mercy is the sin of the foolish."
"We are at War with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of Inquisitors in the service of Our Emperor. Praise His name for in our resolve we only reflect his purpose of will."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Gree wrote:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

That's not fair, Armageddon was a hell scape. Angron, a friggin' Daemon Primarch ripped his way into reality there as well as his entire cadre of personal Bloodthirsters. That's way worse than anything Gaunt has seen as far as I have read (haven't read all of them). The fact the Primarches became Daemons isn't public knowledge, the fact the Grey Knights are real isn't public knowledge and the world just in general got torn to pieces by an overwhelming amount of Khornate Hatred. Armageddon was a special case and the Wolves were foolish to do what they did. The Inquisition tried to burn out the cancer before it spread, that's there job.

Gaunt was just an example. (Although in his case he actually spent extensive time on a Chaos-tainted world and even he didn't. get purged) The Cain series has knowledge of Horus and his heresy among regular Guardsmen. Mont'ka has Cadian regiments who have experience fighting Traitor Marines. Various other novels have Guard or non-Astartes characters encounter Chaos, evidently enough that Chaos is known as the "Archenemy".

I suppose one can put forth taking out people who had direct contact with Angron, but anything beyond that strikes me as unnecessary and contradictory to the other lore we are told. I don't buy that all the other people of Armageddon where necessarily beyond saving, or that they even had that much direct contact with Angron himself, who It seems to have been directly confronted by the Grey Knights and the Wolves. The damage to Armageddon evidently wasn't bad enough to resettle the planet. The Inquisition proceeding to hunt down and kill anyone across the galaxy anyone who even had the remotest connection to anyone from Armageddon, exterminating the populations of planets that the Wolves where evacuating refugees too. I would be much bemused if it turned out that the Inquisition ended up killing more Imperial citizens than Angron's hordes ever managed.

(I also think the Grey Knights being secret is pretty stupid as well, but that's beside the point)

It seems to me like the Inquisition jumped the gun on this in an overzealous reaction to things. I mean, don't we even have an entire novel about this? The Emperor's Gift, and it basically boils down to a single arrogant and power-hungry Inquisitor aggravating the situation, with even the Grey Knights under his command feeling ashamed at their actions against the Wolves, calling it the "Months of Shame". It ends with the Inquisition being the ones forced to back off from Fenris and slink away.

That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.

Except for those times when they loose entire battle companies. But we dont count those. But yes, the fluff usually has them loosing guys to monsters and vastly more powerful aliens not your average human-ish opponent.

And you know what happens when they lose (it's spelled "lose". You loose an arrow, you lose a battle.) those battle companies? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The continuity of the Chapter is not affected whatsoever. It loses no worlds, no holdings, no ground, no battles, no impact on the galaxy at large in any way, shape or form. Despite suffering "great casualties" to its Great Companies and its naval assets in the battle against the Grey Knights, the Space Wolves are not negatively impacted by these losses. Ever. At all. Not even slightly inconvenienced.

**Claas**

So will this all end with Cypher saving the day and killing the Changeling, then the Dark Angels, Fallen, Space Wolves and Wulfen all join together for a group hug?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yes. Except for the Fallen, they still get the torture chamber.

**Gree**

Psienesis wrote:

That is because it is the Space Wolves. Who never lose. Ever. You think Ward's hard-on for the Ultramarines was bad? GW has had a raging boner for the Space Wolves since the Chapter was named. Plot Armor? Theirs is kilometers thick.

Space Wolves plot armor doesn't tend to bother me as much as the Ultramarines do. The Space Wolves doing incredible stuff tends to come across as awesome and cool while the Ultramarines always come across as forced shilling. I find something very appealing in a chapter that can actually stand up to the Inquisition and send them packing. ( This ties into my disdain of the Inquisition in general and their abuse of power.) Rather than coming across as forced it feels very natural to me. It was pretty satisfying to have Grimnar one-shot the Grey Knight Grand Master who treacherously broke the truce and smashing in the face of the Inquisitor who ordered it all.

I would however, agree that the Emperor's Gift favored the Wolves far more than the supposed protagonists of the novel. Even Hyperion himself basically agrees with that.

**Psienesis**

It isn't an abuse of power when your mandate from the God-Emperor of Mankind says "Do whatever it takes. You answer to noone but me."

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yeah, some people have a dislike for the Inquisition because they do grimdark things, in a grimdark settings. And, I guess, also because the marines cannot bully them around, and some marines players don't like this…

**Gree**

Psienesis wrote:
It isn't an abuse of power when your mandate from the God-Emperor of Mankind says "Do whatever it takes. You answer to noone but me."

I don't really believe that either. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't believe the God-Emperor would have approved the Inquisition in their current form. Nor does every Inquisitor use their power selflessly. We have examples of Inquisitors being corrupted or utilized their powers for less than noble purposes. For example Golesh Heldane or Remeius Stele. So yes, I very much consider that an abuse of power.

That and I don't recall the Emperor making any sort of official proclamation forming the Inquisition. Besides the Emperor telling Malcador to gather ''men of character'' right before he went into battle against Horus. Or has Black Library retconned this? Otherwise I'm largely find with dismissing the Inquisition's authority as largely self-proclaimed.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And, I guess, also because the marines cannot bully them around, and some marines players don't like this…

Very much the opposite actually. That and I have an inherent distrust for organizations who claim to wield absolute authority. Both in fiction and in real life.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Gree wrote:
Very much the opposite actually.

The opposite? Does it mean you actually like that the marines cannot bully the Inquisition?

**Gree**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Gree wrote:
Very much the opposite actually.

The opposite? Does it mean you actually like that the marines cannot bully the Inquisition?

No, I believe that the Inquisition are the one who tend to do the bullying. I apologize if my post was unclear.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Well, yeah, the Inquisition can bully the Marines rather than the other way around. I feel it's nice for a change.

**Gree**

To clarify I don't believe the Marines bully the Inquisition at all. Unless I'm missing some long-standing history of the Inquisition being forced to submit to the whims of the Astartes.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yes. I know. And I said that this is why many Marines players do not like the Inquisition.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Actually that's the reason Marine players LOVE the Inquisition. They're regular human beings of different backgrounds, and go on dangerous missions to root out the evil that might be there.

**dusara217**

Let's look at the facts...
1.) Chaos can corrupt people when they so much as look at it (source: Fear to Tread)
2.) Chaotic Auras are known to cause people to instantaneously turn their coats (at least the Auras of the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are)
3.) Chaos taint spreads like a virus
4.) The Inquisition knows this
5.) The Inquisition has infinite authority to do whatever it takes to stop chaos taint from spreading

I don't understand the Inquisition hate. How is it bad to kill 10 million people if 10 billion more get to live because of it? How is it bad to kill those same 10 billion if 10 trillion more get to live for it? Perspective, people. Use it.

**Dark**

dusara217 wrote:
Let's look at the facts...
1.) Chaos can corrupt people when they so much as look at it (source: Fear to Tread)
2.) Chaotic Auras are known to cause people to instantaneously turn their coats (at least the Auras of the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are)
3.) Chaos taint spreads like a virus
4.) The Inquisition knows this
5.) The Inquisition has infinite authority to do whatever it takes to stop chaos taint from spreading

I don't understand the Inquisition hate. How is it bad to kill 10 million people if 10 billion more get to live because of it? How is it bad to kill those same 10 billion if 10 trillion more get to live for it? Perspective, people. Use it.

Probably the hate comes from being sympathetic. What you say, by all means, makes sense and is logical, but we humans are illogical, and are prone to put ourselves in situations and think "ok, if this happened to me or the ones I love it wouldn't be so cool."

It's kinda hard to see how being castrated and sent to die of exhaustion on forced labor camps for the greater good of humanity canbe accepted by an average person

**KingmanHighborn**

^ this. Especially when 'facts 1-3' are highly disputable.

**Casti**

the average joe citzen is screwed regardless of their "choices" of gods, regime and caffeinated beverage.

The fluff has chaos as being the insidious corrupting force, not sure how you believe that facts 1-3 are disputable, frankly everything in this universe is disputable if you want it to be.

The inquisition doesnt care about the average joe, they worry about worlds and sectors. They operate on prevention being better than the cure, better to kill 1 million soldiers than have those soldiers go and corrupt more soldiers, cities, worlds or even sectors. Cleansing more worlds of the chaos taint would be more costly than those soldiers killed.

Grimnar was a blind fool to think otherwise. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, letting those soldiers go from armaggedon was a mistake.

Bringing it back on topic, the Dark Angels and their allies are correct in asuming that the wulfen are dangerous mutants and that the Space Puppies are corrupt. By the broad definition of corruption use in the setting by the imperium and inquisition, the wulfen are corrupted mutants and should be killed and at very least the wolves sent on a penitent crusade and lose controlling rights of the fenris system.

Leniency is something that the imperium cannot afford.

**Dark**

Casti wrote:

Bringing it back on topic, the Dark Angels and their allies are correct in asuming that the wulfen are dangerous mutants and that the Space Puppies are corrupt. By the broad definition of corruption use in the setting by the imperium and inquisition, the wulfen are corrupted mutants and should be killed and at very least the wolves sent on a penitent crusade and lose controlling rights of the fenris system.

Leniency is something that the imperium cannot afford.

The thing is how visible things are.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but teeeechnically, Wulfen and Death Company are similar in danger; depending on the fluff Death Company are worse since in some occasions Wulfen revert to "normal" (as normal as an Astartes can be); the problem with Wulfen is that they have visible symptoms whereas the others are only noticeable because of their paint job.

Now, I cannot call the Inquisition "hypocrites" because of this even as a Space Wolves fan, same as I cannot call the same the Vlka because of Rune Priests) mostly because there's one magical word called context. It's easy for us to pass judgement on what happens in the setting with our XX/XXI century mentality and a whole knowledge of cause and effect, while the characters know very little, have a limited scope and even a different morality.

That last point I make is the cause why I get so amused when I read vitriolic posts from people in favour of A and against B (and vice versa); it's almost as silly as when a bunch of people insult and beat the crap of the other bunch because they believe their football team should have a match. At least on the forum only feelings can be hurt, and none can die of injuries :p

**dusara217**

Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...

**Furyou Miko**

dusara217 wrote:
Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...

'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...

**pm713**

If I remember some of the lore right Wulfen end up being more resistant to Chaos. There's also the whole thing where being in the Warp doesn't guarantee you'll immediately get corrupted.

**Dark**

Furyou Miko wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Neither Wulfen nor Death Company are strains of Chaos taint. Therefore, neither are a threat. Of course, I'm speaking from the omniscient outsider's POV so...

'cept that the 13th company Wulfen have been lost in the warp for ten thousand years...

Only not all of them are Wulfen (Vulbeye and the priests ain't, may be more), and becoming wulfen is more of a chemical condition with the Canis Helix than chaos corruption, disregard what people within the 40K universe may know or believe