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 Kavish wrote:
That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.

The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.

The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,

The 6 units of 10 fearless boys blobs are not the biggest threat in the Orkorion it's ghazskulls mini deathstar with its multiple warlord powerklaws blob. The problem is as you said the 6 units of boyz even with str4 on charge and hammer of wraith don't do much especially when they are not objective secured. Orks need some point cost reductions across the board to make the Orkorion and most ork units viable. Right now the only competitve units we have are warbikers and various warbosses, a few specialized units like Mek guns and tankbustas being ok with lootas being good but still costly.

gungo wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.

The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,

The 6 units of 10 fearless boys blobs are not the biggest threat in the Orkorion it's ghazskulls mini deathstar with its multiple warlord powerklaws blob. The problem is as you said the 6 units of boyz even with str4 on charge and hammer of wraith don't do much especially when they are not objective secured. Orks need some point cost reductions across the board to make the Orkorion and most ork units viable. Right now the only competitve units we have are warbikers and various warbosses, a few specialized units like Mek guns and tankbustas being ok with lootas being good but still costly.

A warboss in mega armor = 100pts
A Warboss in Eavy Armor with a PK = 89pts......

Mek Gunz are about the only thing in the entire codex that is priced correctly. And even then they could use a buff of some sort, because realistically when do you see Mek gunz not used as KMKs or Traktor Kannons?

Tankbustas are meh at best, they shine in our codex because we have feth all else that is decent. And Lootas? They would be worth it if they shot D3+1 shots and were able to either increase the strength or rate of fire of their weapons. That teamed with not dying when someone sneezes at them.

I saw a battle report where the ork-curion was used against a white scars battle company. Lost by a small margin and nearly tabled the space marines. Fearless orks are nothing to sniff at. Yes I agree, the codex needs a real update.

 Kavish wrote:
I saw a battle report where the ork-curion was used against a white scars battle company. Lost by a small margin and nearly tabled the space marines. Fearless orks are nothing to sniff at. Yes I agree, the codex needs a real update.

No offense to the white scar player but he must have failed miserably on a lot of important saves. At no point should a white scars player be caught with his pants down by an Orkurion. Hell you can nerf it to a normal list simply by killing Ghaz, or make him irrelevant by killing his transport (probably a BW, but still doable) Then watch as his "Death Star" has to walk around the board 6-12 inches at a time.

Fix mob rule so it's back to the old leadership=number of units.
And bring back ramshackle trukks.

Free shootas and -1 point for 'eavy armour would be nice but i feel it'd be ultimately unnecessary compared to above.

One does not simply kill Ghazghkull. 2++ T5 eternal warrior you know. Yea the white Scars player deployed aggressively. That's a mistake. Against all trucks and battlewagons in an ork-curion you should line up along your table edge to avoid that turn one charge.

 Kavish wrote:
One does not simply kill Ghazghkull. 2++ T5 eternal warrior you know. Yea the white Scars player deployed aggressively. That's a mistake. Against all trucks and battlewagons in an ork-curion you should line up along your table edge to avoid that turn one charge.

And after the initial rush you blow up the trukks because they are easy to destroy and then you can pick off the boyz at will because they will never be able to catch you. And if they come close then just assault them because on bikes you shouldn't worry about boyz (S3 vs T5 = Wounding on 6s)

Orkurion is a joke at best and an insult at worst. GW got tired of the massive number of hate e-mails they were receiving every day in regards to GW screwing the Orks for the entirety of 7th edition so they published a "New and improved" Ork supplement that is just the same garbage with a bit more garbage thrown in to make it look less like garbage.

Here's hoping that 8th edition orks get some kind of buffs. maybe make boyz have 20 base attacks that might be enough to help them out

Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.

Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)

Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.

-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.

-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.

WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.

Cybork Body adds +1 to FNP and a 5++

-Choppa
S User AP- Melee, Shred
-Big Choppa (5pts)
S+2 AP4 Melee, Two-handed, Shred
-Killsaw (25 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Armorbane, Specialist Weapon
-Power Klaw (20 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon

For the most part this is simply giving the orks back what they had back in 6th edition. Specifically the S3 explosions would be probably one of the best buffs for orks...which is kind of pathetic.

A lot of good ideas here. I especially like the "no disordered charge" rule.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get a big blob squad into melee, they win in one round, and are rewarded by becoming sitting ducks for rapid fire and flamers. How about this to help with that issue:

Whenever Orks can make a consolidate move, they can choose to charge instead. The enemy can fire overwatch as normal, and if the Orks make the charge, they are locked in combat, but neither side gets to swing until the next assault phase and the orks do not get any bonuses for charging.

That really ought to be a rule for close combat in general.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That really ought to be a rule for close combat in general.

It used to be...and it was bananas. Remember, if we win but don't sweep, the retreating unit (if it doesn't leave the board) will still have to snap fire, and they can't use flamers. Other units can, but it is up to the orkies to make sure the other units are otherwise occupied, i.e. still in combat.

If you 're counting on a single ork unit to chain-assault and win the game, you're not playing orks as intended...IMHO.

I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.

As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-

And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.

Melevolence wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.

Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)

Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.

-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.

-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.

WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.

Cybork Body adds +1 to FNP and a 5++

-Choppa
S User AP- Melee, Shred
-Big Choppa (5pts)
S+2 AP4 Melee, Two-handed, Shred
-Killsaw (25 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Armorbane, Specialist Weapon
-Power Klaw (20 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon

I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.

As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-

And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.

Well that is your opinion and you are entitle to it. However, if you think giving boyz S4 is game breaking and what have you then I would ask you to go look at Genestealer cultists who are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER then ork boyz and I believe they only cost like 1pt more. So there is the problem. I understand you want a "fair" codex, so do we all. But fair doesn't have to mean weak. If everyone goes around with cheese lists then why shouldn't the orks have their overall power level increased (not cheesey levels) but increased to at least combat this cheese.

SemperMortis wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.

Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)

Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.

-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.

-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.

WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.

Cybork Body adds +1 to FNP and a 5++

-Choppa
S User AP- Melee, Shred
-Big Choppa (5pts)
S+2 AP4 Melee, Two-handed, Shred
-Killsaw (25 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Armorbane, Specialist Weapon
-Power Klaw (20 pts)
Sx2 AP2 Melee, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon

I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.

As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-

And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.

Well that is your opinion and you are entitle to it. However, if you think giving boyz S4 is game breaking and what have you then I would ask you to go look at Genestealer cultists who are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER then ork boyz and I believe they only cost like 1pt more. So there is the problem. I understand you want a "fair" codex, so do we all. But fair doesn't have to mean weak. If everyone goes around with cheese lists then why shouldn't the orks have their overall power level increased (not cheesey levels) but increased to at least combat this cheese.

I never said it was game breaking. What I'm getting at is you can't reasonably give units upgrades and make them cheaper or not change their cost at all. Doing it to one unit doesn't change much, but when you begin to give these free or upgrades that somehow make them cost less to multiple units, you begin to really cause issues with balance. It's exactly how we've gotten to the mess of a game we have today. Bottom line is, the entire game needs to be blown up and redone with the same design choices in mind. But us going and doing the same things as other books isn't solving issues. it's making it worse.

Melevolence wrote:

I never said it was game breaking. What I'm getting at is you can't reasonably give units upgrades and make them cheaper or not change their cost at all. Doing it to one unit doesn't change much, but when you begin to give these free or upgrades that somehow make them cost less to multiple units, you begin to really cause issues with balance. It's exactly how we've gotten to the mess of a game we have today. Bottom line is, the entire game needs to be blown up and redone with the same design choices in mind. But us going and doing the same things as other books isn't solving issues. it's making it worse.

I agree that you shouldn't lower the points cost of a unit AND increase its abilities with free upgrades. But at the same time may I point out the giant crock of fanboy excrement that is the Eldar Codex?

Wraithknights became Jump GMC
Scat Bikes gained the ability to all take heavy weapons
Warp Spiders gained the ability to be invulnerable to shooting because of their movement abilities
Fire Dragons gained AP0
Wraithguard gained D strength weapons
and the list goes on and on and on. Did the points cost go up for these units? not really if at all. Some units actually got cheaper. Who ever wrote the Eldar Codex was clearly a fanboy, whoever QC'd the Eldar Codex was either an idiot or a fellow Eldar Fanboy.

What we are left with is a game where if you play against eldar you would be better off just shaking their hands and congratulating them on picking the most OP army to ever exist in Warhammer 40,000.

Until GW nerfs the hell out of the ENTIRE Eldar codex what you are going to have is people like myself who want army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance to compete against the 3 cheese blend that is the Eldar Codex.

So you don't want to fix things at all? Just make things worse? That sounds like a great idea.

I don't get it. You want us to be flucking eldar?

 JimOnMars wrote:
I don't get it. You want us to be flucking eldar?

I guess you didn't read the entire post then jim. Specifically

Until GW nerfs the hell out of the ENTIRE Eldar codex what you are going to have is people like myself who want army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance to compete against the 3 cheese blend that is the Eldar Codex.

And further specifying this part "Army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance" I didn't say "Buff us to Eldar levels so we always beat everyone and have a 50/50 against eldar."

I just want to show up to a game and not have the feeling im spending more time setting up my models then I am going to spend playing the actual game.

I would love for all the armies to get nerfed down to Ork levels, granted with a lot more synergy. But with few exceptions Codex's never get nerfed, they get buffed. So wishing for balance at the Ork level is like spitting into the wind and then getting mad when you splatter yourself.

That's what I don't get. You are quitting because you can't beat Eldar, but you get a great game against CSM. If we were buffed to the point where we had even a chance against Eldar cheese, CSM wouldn't stand a chance.

No difference, you get 1 good game and 1 bad game. Why quit if a game against Eldar is boring, but then not quit if a game against CSM is boring?

 JimOnMars wrote:
That's what I don't get. You are quitting because you can't beat Eldar, but you get a great game against CSM. If we were buffed to the point where we had even a chance against Eldar cheese, CSM wouldn't stand a chance.

No difference, you get 1 good game and 1 bad game. Why quit if a game against Eldar is boring, but then not quit if a game against CSM is boring?

I only play Orks So I don't complain for CSM players, though I do share their pain.

I think EVERY army that is currently bottom tier should be buffed.

As far as your comment about not being able to beat eldar....well close, its actually Eldar, Tau, most SM lists (Except BA), Necrons. Those are the worst games you can match us against because they have rules that are OP and to difficult to beat with orks most times. On the other hand you also have IG and SoB who are basically built as a codex to Feth orks over, I find those games are very hard to win, but at least I have a chance.

Also, if you read my post about boycotting GW, I am NOT quitting, I am just never going to buy another product directly from GW, im looking for 3rd party sites and using dakka's forum to buy models. I am aware that a lot of that money is going to be used by those people to buy more GW products but at least I am not directly funding them.