Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.

Because as much as I would love for that to happen, the power creep has gone on for so long that Orks have already waited about 2-3 years for the power creep to reverse. Even longer if you count the 6th Edition Shenanigans so in reality, I think I speak for most Ork Players when I say we are tired of deploying our forces only to pack the up about an hour later, having lost without doing to much.

And the problem is that AP2/3 don't bother Orks as much as they bother MEQ armies. Orks problem is that almost every gun in the game negates their garbage 6+ T-shirt save so we are at the point now where if you don't take Eavy Armor (which is a Over Priced option) you aren't able to stand up to about 90% of fire.

And please don't give me the BS "But it fits the fluff, orks are supposed to die in droves" if we are playing a game where the fluff matches the game Play then SM players should only be able to field 5-10 tactical Marines in a 1,500pt game and Eldar shouldn't play at all except once every 20-30 visits to the game store.



SO basically we either BUFF the stat line of the orks with better armor, Strength and such or we reduce the point value of them so that they don't effect the game as much when they are removed in the droves that you guys all want to see.

Make boyz 5 pts and guardsmen 3 pts. No more formation fixes.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.

Because as much as I would love for that to happen, the power creep has gone on for so long that Orks have already waited about 2-3 years for the power creep to reverse. Even longer if you count the 6th Edition Shenanigans so in reality, I think I speak for most Ork Players when I say we are tired of deploying our forces only to pack the up about an hour later, having lost without doing to much.

And the problem is that AP2/3 don't bother Orks as much as they bother MEQ armies. Orks problem is that almost every gun in the game negates their garbage 6+ T-shirt save so we are at the point now where if you don't take Eavy Armor (which is a Over Priced option) you aren't able to stand up to about 90% of fire.

And please don't give me the BS "But it fits the fluff, orks are supposed to die in droves" if we are playing a game where the fluff matches the game Play then SM players should only be able to field 5-10 tactical Marines in a 1,500pt game and Eldar shouldn't play at all except once every 20-30 visits to the game store.



SO basically we either BUFF the stat line of the orks with better armor, Strength and such or we reduce the point value of them so that they don't effect the game as much when they are removed in the droves that you guys all want to see.

I totally agree that Orks need help. I play against them and they're fun, but they do need to be more competitive. I just think that if we're wishing for fixes, wish for the power creep to stop. It's not like anything we say here is going to make any difference to what GW does, so if we're going to wish for changes that'll never happen, my preference is to tone it all back. That'll fix a lot more problems - not just Orks - then everyone wins. But hey, we're not GW...

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Personally I believe that Orks should be base cost 5, they shouldn't pay to change weapons to shootas because they suck anyway, and that Eavy Armor should be a 2, at most 3pt upgrade.

Any suggestions besides this? or do you think boyz are fine as is?

If you make them 5 ppm, then you are asserting that an ork boy is points equivalent to an imperial guardsman with a lasgun.

Personally, I'm in favor of giving them a totally awesome formation that can be run at 1000 points or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formation: Oi, lets go for a ride!

1 warboss on a bike
5 units of warbikers
10 units of boys

All units of boys may take a trukk for free. Upgrades must be purchased as normal.
All units gain objective secured.

An ork boy squad is equivalent to a imperial guardsman squad with a lasgun and the sergeant. And it's not like guardsmen are killing it right now either.
I agree with the above posters suggestion.
I'd even suggest having the nob be automatic free inclusion. So 50pts for 10 boyz and nob with or without shootas. 70pts with eavy armour.

I wouldn't take Traditio's input too seriously guys, this is the same person who thinks that Fire Warriors are OP compared to marines and that marines should be like "in the fluff" and curbstomp everyone because they're so-called demigods of war, even though Orks, like many xenos species, can beat the bajeezus out of marines like in the Beast Arises series or during the Great Crusade where one was even able to threaten the Emperor.

The issue with boyz is, as everyone noticed, their issue with delivery and making it to the enemy somewhat intact. I feel this is less on the boyz themselves and more on their transports.

Trukks should have a capacity of 15, and the ramshackle rule should be altered to give it a 5+ invuln. against all attacks that aren't armourbane, melta, ordnance or destroyer weapons, (since the main issues aren't one shot anti-tank weapons but rather the plethora of S6-7 shooting nowadays) which should honestly just be an Orky standard vehicle rule. Either that or ramshackle changes it so that any explodes result gets downgraded to the vehicle just becoming wrecked on a 3+. That way it doesn't do nearly as much damage to our boyz.

Battlewagons just need to cost the same they did before, roughly 90 maybe 80 points given how weak vehicles are in this edition, to make it so boarding planks are actually feasible as an upgrade.

IMO Ork boyz only really need to have somewhat more variety in what we can take to deal with the increasing amounts of threats with GMC and SHW without just relying on the klaw. Something along the lines of a super-stikkbomb (or hell if we're lazy just tankbusta bombs) for every 5 orks in the unit can be taken, followed by things like burnas or big choppas to give them more oomph in combat that can't be challenged out. Also, as mentioned previously, make shootas a free trade given how little small arms play a role nowadays in today's meta.

I also agree with the sentiment that eavy armour should be cheaper, 2-3 points given how little it does with AP4 shooting everywhere.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Trukks are too much of a deathtrap, though, and it spreads them too thin. You blow up a truk with 10 boys, you'll lose on average 4-ish, 3-ish with heavy armor. That leaves a squad of 6 or 7 boyz. Those boyz aren't going to get any work done; they're just too small of a unit to do any real damage. Honestly, I don't take squads of anything less than 15. I feel even 10 boyz isn't much of a threat.

And it's true that orks can take heavy casualties, but you should be all means avoid it. Don't be afraid of throwing some of your boyz into the fire, but if you spread them all out in trukks, they'll never be able to get to the enemy. That's why an option like giving them a footslogging speedboost would be beneficial. They can still make use of cover and won't explode when a S5 weapon looks at them funny. Mass trukks just doesn't work well for them.

I think trukks are great for boyz except when they blow up which is all to common of an occurance. My suggestion is go back to something similar to the old ramshackle rules where all or most penetrating hits are reduced to glancing or just -2 to the roll on the pen table which basically means it's near impossible to explode the trukk. They will still be easy to destroy but they provide some protection and speed to Orks. If you want something more survivable that's what the battlewagon is for which is really just another transport and not really a tank equivalent.

I'd say mob rules isn't a bad idea either however the actual d6 chart is just poorly thought out.

Martel732 wrote:
Make boyz 5 pts and guardsmen 3 pts. No more formation fixes.

Deal.

I also like the idea of the squad getting a free nob. A mob of boyz without a leader doesn't seem right. They should have a gang mentality, rallying around a boss. And if the boss dies, either a new one takes over or the mob disbands and joins another one. So yeah, make the basic squad consist of a Nob boss (character) and 9 boyz for 50-60pts. Heavy armour 2pts a boy.

Another thing that orcs could use are medics. In my opinion, all 40k armies need more medics. There's the pain boss yes, but if he is the Doc equivalent to a Big Mek, then you guys need an ordinary Mek equivalent. Giving the mobs feel no pain would help more of them survive long enough to get into fights. Using my experience of the IG, I'd say let an ork player take 0-3 Docs (Pain Boys?) as a single HQ choice that doesn't take up a FOC slot (there should also be the same option for ordinary meks and weird boys too). Sat wise, they'd be an ork slugga boy with docs tools, urty syringes and the option to take grot orderlies.

As for ramshackle, I think trukks, buggies and war tracks should all get it. And what I would do is say that when rolling to penetrate the vehicle, the enemy has to roll an extra dice, and discard the highest.

let orks deploy from the midline it sounds broken, but with all the ridiculous shooting and special rules packages flying around that two editions ago would have sounded ludicrous all sorted around shooting and shooting units its not that far off the page. and you cant deny it would make them silly competitive anf force your opponents in other armies to really go back to the drawing board on fighting orks. getting totally bogged down in cc's turn 1-2 basically ruins your ability to shoot so hard. and with so many armies out there focused on it to the point of obsession it would be a real changing of the winds in 40k. specifically on the tournament level.

you might even see people just gamble on not fighting orks which would make for great youtube video submissions. watching jetbike spam with wave serpents getting charged on turn 1 and moved down by the "comedy regiment" fitted for war with claws and choppas and killsaws murdering their way to the other side of the table with total abandon because the other guy neglected to even consider an ork charge that early

Indeed. First thing first is making the orks able to make it into close combat against an enemy with a strong ranged game. In practice get the game designers to play orks and have the orks reach the eldar/tau line with enough meat to have an interesting game.

Different Ways to do This:
-Give boyz FnP(5) or (6).
-Let ramshackle force opponent to roll two dice and pick the lowest result. (Good one there FWC.)
-Cheaper boyz. Free transports or free upgrades will achieve that. Nobz will look interesting if this becomes a thing.

Upping the powerlevel will eschew the balance. Just like any of the top codexii you can build below top notch lists if you want.

Regarding fnp I think the painboss and painboy idea like the big Mek and Mek is a good answer. I also think cybork bodies should be +1 fnp if it doesn't go back to 5+ invul.

Fnp has its own limitations that doesn't make it to strong on Orks. Str 8 weapons will still kill Orks outright, and a few other specials.

I'm not so sure about the half table deployment rules that's basically just a better version of army wide infiltrate that can charge turn 1. That seems to be a bit much beyond what should be allowed.

The ork Bossboy formation has pretty cool rule. Give D3 ork units outflank and acute senses. The formation itself kind of sucks because it's essentially a 5 hq tax for it. Just give the codex detachment that rule instead of the dumb and entirely worthless Hammer of Wrath rule and you'll see a ton of Orky gak that's fallen behind become semi usefully again. (Large Boy Mobs, Deff Dreads, G&M nauts, killa kans, burna boyz.)

Alternatively, the Renengades have the horde rule where any unit of however many models it was is destroyed they instead enter ongoing reserve.

Fluff wise, It's almost impossible to keep tabs on an Ork Waaagh which is constantly splintering off and rejoining itself. Either of these rules would work representing that as well as making orks competitive without an entirely new book.

Waaargh wrote:-Give boyz FnP(5) or (6).

That actually makes a lot of sense. It would be roughly equivalent to chaos demons getting a 5+ invuln.

Formation like I've described with free trucks, run bonuses for the boys and 5+ FNP for everyone?

Sounds like a game of warhammer to me.

At that point, I wouldn't feel so bad about using Pedro Kantor's Oath of Rynn rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:Str 8 weapons will still kill Orks outright, and a few other specials.

Krak missiles kill marines outright. If it kills marines, it should kill orks.

Importantly, FNP on T4 models means that to ID them you need weapons that can't be spammed. This is why it'd be much more useful on Orks than it is on, say, Dark Eldar. (Where it's already not too bad...)

I also propose the WHEEEEE! and I think I can; I think I can! special rule for all ork vehicles:

WHEEEE!: If this model should be removed from play due to rolling a result of "Explodes!" on the vehicle damage table, place the scatter die at some point within x inches from this model prior to it being removed, where x is the number rolled for the distance of the explosion. Place the embarked unit there. Roll the scatter dice to determine where they land. These models take explosion hits as normal. Should a mishap result, simply move the unit the least distance required to avoid it.

I think I can; I think I can!: Roll 1d6 prior to rolling the scatter die for the WHEEEE! special rule. On a 1-3 result, the ork player may choose the direction of the scatter (even on a HIT result, he may choose to ignore the HIT result, choose a direction, and move the unit full scatter). On a 4-6, he may reroll the scatter dice.

Being a bit conservative - whatever fix it is should have the clear aim of providing an equal game against shooty armies out there.

The formation suggested is good, with something free thrown in, for easy GW math. Be it free upgrades (ard boyz everywhere and nobz with PK gets repetitive though), free weapon upgrades (PK everywhere, practically just a 25 pts rebate on units) or transports (10-12 boyz = free trukk; 15-20 boyz = free battle wagon). 5 units of bikes with ObSec is also really nice.

+12" deployment zone would go a long way to help boyz mobs on the table.

5ppm, shoota is free, st=4, 4+ = 3pts, Nobz LD8, disordered charge with no penalty (ALL Ork charges are disordered!)

 JimOnMars wrote:
5ppm, shoota is free, st=4, 4+ = 3pts, Nobz LD8, disordered charge with no penalty (ALL Ork charges are disordered!)

S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.


S4 Boyz and no disorganized charge penalty would make ork boyz almost playable again, and giving them a 1pt reduction in price yeah your hitting the nail on the head now, this would give a huge bump to the ork codex and make it competitive again.

No, 5 ppm as is. Orks can already kill meqs just fine at S3 with furious charge.

SemperMortis wrote:S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.

Why should they be stronger than space marines on the charge?

It makes sense to make them all S4 (they're naturally stronger than gaurdsmen regardless) and remove the furious charge special rule.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
5ppm, shoota is free, st=4, 4+ = 3pts, Nobz LD8, disordered charge with no penalty (ALL Ork charges are disordered!)

S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.


S4 Boyz and no disorganized charge penalty would make ork boyz almost playable again, and giving them a 1pt reduction in price yeah your hitting the nail on the head now, this would give a huge bump to the ork codex and make it competitive again.

Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.

Why should they be stronger than space marines on the charge?

It makes sense to make them all S4 (they're naturally stronger than gaurdsmen regardless) and remove the furious charge special rule.

Furious charge doesn't imply that they suddenly gain strength, that is just a fault of the mechanic. It just means they get a mini-hammer of wrath because they are running so fast.

Also, Ork Biceps > Space Marine Biceps. Jes Sayin'.

JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.

For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline. And they are dual-wielding.

Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.

Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.

For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.

Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.

4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.

# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.

FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.

For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.

Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.

4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.

# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.

FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.

1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.

Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:

A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.

An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.

Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.

Traditio wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.

For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.

Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.

4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.

# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.

FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.

1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.

Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:

A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.

An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.

Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.

The part about this that is wrong is that for those Orks to get into CC against those SM's they have to wade through the SM's fire for 2 turns, or 1 turn if they get the 1st turn. In contrast for the SMs to inflict any casualties on those FW's shooting them they need to move 6 inches INTO range of the Firewarriors.

So when you factor in the casualties the orks will sustain from ranged weapons before they get to assault you will see that FWs are significantly better at what they do then Ork Boyz. Making Ork boyz S5 on the charge makes sense, Ork boys should have been S4 from the start and anyone who plays the game or reads the fluff knows this.

Traditio wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.

For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.

Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.

4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.

# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.

FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.

1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.

Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:

A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.

An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.

Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.

Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.

Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.

If you discount ork's having to get into CC to be effective they are really strong.

Likewise if you discount Orks inability to survive any kind of shooting in the current edition they are amazingly powerful, probably the most OP unit in the game

Here's some more suggestions.

All orks could have furious charge and counter attack. An orks mentality should be attack attack attack imo. With this, either on the charge or not, orks will have very high numbers of attacks in the first turn of fighting.

There was another thread around here that suggested Clan specific special rules that I quite liked. +1 Strength for Goffs, +1 FNP save for Snake Bites etc. They would definitely improve the boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:

Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.

If you discount ork's having to get into CC to be effective they are really strong.

Likewise if you discount Orks inability to survive any kind of shooting in the current edition they are amazingly powerful, probably the most OP unit in the game

Yep. Or since fire warriors can shoot 30", let ork boyz charge 5d6.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Here's some more suggestions.

All orks could have furious charge and counter attack. An orks mentality should be attack attack attack imo. With this, either on the charge or not, orks will have very high numbers of attacks in the first turn of fighting.

There was another thread around here that suggested Clan specific special rules that I quite liked. +1 Strength for Goffs, +1 FNP save for Snake Bites etc. They would definitely improve the boyz.

Except nobody in their right mind charges a squad of Ork Boyz unless they already know they are going to win. IE the boyz are already down to a minimum or the attacker is TWC

So Counter-attack would be about as useful as Stickbomb chuckas on a trukk.