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SemperMortis wrote:The part about this that is wrong is that for those Orks to get into CC against those SM's they have to wade through the SM's fire for 2 turns, or 1 turn if they get the 1st turn. In contrast for the SMs to inflict any casualties on those FW's shooting them they need to move 6 inches INTO range of the Firewarriors.

So when you factor in the casualties the orks will sustain from ranged weapons before they get to assault you will see that FWs are significantly better at what they do then Ork Boyz. Making Ork boyz S5 on the charge makes sense, Ork boys should have been S4 from the start and anyone who plays the game or reads the fluff knows this.

1. I fully agree that ork boys should be base S4. Again, I think it's pretty daft to think that ork muscles = imperial guard muscles. I mean, it's kind of a joke, isn't it? About how Orks think that the humies are fragile and tiny?

2. I generally agree with the rest of your assessment.

However, these are basically the problems that I'm having:

1. Ork boys cost 1 more point than an imperial guardsman. By right, ork boys should be 1/5th better than an average guardman. They should be a little less than half as good as a space marine. Thus the reason I'm averse to ramping them up too much (aside, of course, from formations).

2. The gist of the ork complaint that I'm getting is: "We take a lot of casualties trying to get into close combat, and we're a close combat army."

Yes, that's true. But it omits a key word: "We're a close combat horde army."

It's a really fine line. As it stands, you get mowed down trying to cross the field, especially against tau and eldar.

But if you ramp up ork mobility too much, then all of a sudden, there's the distinct possibility that my marines end up getting tabled turn 2 or 3 by an overwhelming ork hord.

Ramp up ork mobility too much, and you face the prospect of orks tabling pretty much any shooting army that doesn't rely on superheavies on turn 2 or 3.

Same problem with making orks too durable.

How do you toe that line between making orks terrible and making orks OP? I suppose that's the flip side of asking how you toe the line between making tau terrible and making tau OP.

Personally, I think that free trukks approaches the line, even if it doesn't quite step on it.

I personally agree with Base s4, and rage instead of furious charge. Also counter-attack. Would certainly make Ork boys scary for any mid-tier army, which is fine since most of us would like to see the top tier brought down to about mid tier.

The problems with giving orks free trukks are:

1: Trukkz are Garbage, suicide boxes that generally incapacitate any Mob stupid enough to get in it. EXAMPLE: When (Not if) the trukk explodes it causes about 50% Casualties from the explosion and the follow on Mob rule tests. So now they are useless in CC because they won't survive and might not even be able to hide the Nob/PK.

2: Giving free trukks away is forcing you to make your "HORDE" Army into a MSU troops army that relies completely on AV10 vehicles, in an edition where vehicles in general are under powered Gak.

3: Giving Ork boyz trukkz for free doesn't alleviate the key problem, a lack of durability.


You contradict yourself in your assessment by saying that they are a HORDE army and your answer to their problems is to make them into an MSU army. Trukk boyz haven't been competitive in any real way for a long time. MSU boyz aren't good because again they have no durability so they get gunned down, fail leadership and either get swept in CC or lose D6 boyz to mob rule further reducing their CC ability.

When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.

Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.

TRUKKZ ARE NEVER THE ANSWER, unless they are full of deff dredz, then MORE TRUKKZ!

SemperMortis wrote:
Except nobody in their right mind charges a squad of Ork Boyz unless they already know they are going to win. IE the boyz are already down to a minimum or the attacker is TWC

So Counter-attack would be about as useful as Stickbomb chuckas on a trukk.

Actually, that's the best way to beat orks- deny their charge. If you charge orks, you deny them their +1 str and attack, and you get at minimum an extra attack for the charge. I hate being charged as orks, because I know I have a damn good chance of losing, even to a barebones maines squad. It's a funny secret that a lot of veteran players know about. Orks love to charge, but they hate being charged. That's why making them S4 all the time and giving them counter attack would be fantastic.

SemperMortis wrote:When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.

This isn't just an ork problem. Eldar and Tau are OP in general. The goal, in my view, should be to give orks equal footing to a space marine battle company (of the non OP variety), not to make them as OP as the most OP codices in the game. Those codices should be nerfed.

Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.

Two points:

1. Giving them furious charge, while upgrading them to S4, would step on the toes of marines. Why should a boy have a chance to wound a wraithknight when my genetically altered super soldier demigod can't?

2. Again, there's still the matter of points costs. At the end of the day, a gaurdsman costs 5 ppm and is equipped with a lasgun, 5+ armor and a solid statline of 3s.

Yes, ork boys should be better. But they still only cost 6 ppm.

...

...

Did you like my WHEEE! and I think I can; I think I can proposal for trukks?

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.

This isn't just an ork problem. Eldar and Tau are OP in general. The goal, in my view, should be to give orks equal footing to a space marine battle company (of the non OP variety), not to make them as OP as the most OP codices in the game. Those codices should be nerfed.

Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.

Two points:

1. Giving them furious charge, while upgrading them to S4, would step on the toes of marines. Why should a boy have a chance to wound a wraithknight when my genetically altered super soldier demigod can't?

2. Again, there's still the matter of points costs. At the end of the day, a gaurdsman costs 5 ppm and is equipped with a lasgun, 5+ armor and a solid statline of 3s.

Yes, ork boys should be better. But they still only cost 6 ppm.

Did you like my WHEEE! and I think I can; I think I can proposal for trukks?

No, anything to do with trukks I hate. I have played far to many games where my trukks just explode because my opponent looked at them funny.. Boyz durability is a problem. Trukks durability is a HUGE problem. Everything about this current edition and codex made Trukkz weaker.

you can now hit models inside trukkz with flamers
models now suffer S4 hits instead of S3
Trukkz lost Ramshackle rule and got a stupid 6+ instead.

No thank you, I would rather footslog 15boyz then take 10 in a trukk.

Yeah.

No, I agree. Trukks do need a bit more love from GW.

I mean, it's unfortunate that trukks are so bad, because they're just so awesome aesthetically/fluff-wise.

"Hey, look, maw, a bunch of hillbil...orks are riding in with their shotgu...shootas and choppas in their pick up trucks!"

Orks: "Yeeeeeeha....WAAAAAAGH!"

It's so incredibly blue collar!

In the current meta - give all Orks (not gretchin) free FnP, which stacks with cybork and/or doks. Standard armour should be +5 save. Maybe revert to previous edition's Mob rules.

Ideally, I would prefer to see the current meta toned down - superheavies should be restricted to games at 3k points or higher, revamp power levels of armies, remove OP formations. Formations should give benefits and drawbacks, not free benefits with no drawbacks.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents.

I really think rending on big shootas and rokkit launcha would be a small start in this meta's direction.

I think a unique way to help boyz might be giving them a method for taking casulties from the back against any weapon that ignores their best save.

Trukks need to not blow up ever

Traditio wrote:

They suck and they need to suck individually because you can get a bunch of them for a relatively small number of points per model. That's the trade off. You're not playing marines, eldar or necrons.The answer isn't to make boys stronger. The answer is to let you bring more stuff so that, even if you sustain heavy losses, you still have the numbers to win.

Like the Russians.

I disagree. That is what the Imperial Guard and Tyranids are for. Orks should be more intimidating opponents, able to easily shrug off hits that would kill a man, and absolutely devastating if they manage to get in close combat. They should still be a horde army of course, and individual Ork boyz should be no threat to the likes of a Space Marine or Eldar Aspect Warrior, but the fluff definitely justifies them as being stronger than they are now.

Also, your comment about Russians is really offensive and ignorant. Please bother to educate yourself before you write things like that.

I think that ork boyz being 5 ppm is an absolute minimum.

Furthermore, I don't think it's at all unreasonable, as orks were 6 ppm in the last codex, but could take stikkbombs for 1 ppm.

Now, they get stikkbombs included (which are useless), but are still 6ppm.

If they gave me 5 ppm boyz with the option to take stikkbombs for 1ppm (which I'd continue to never take), and a free swap to shootas, it would be a start.

But apart from that......

I don't think it's boyz that are the problem (apart from slight overcosting). I think it's mob rule. Especially for small unit sizes (trukk boyz).

If boyz didn't have to kill each other in droves to pass a test they could have passed for free in the last codex, I think they would be a hell of a lot more effective.

As it is......I find boyz pretty lackluster, but they're something you really have to take.

Still, though. Large amount of trukks (4+) or big blobs with sufficient ranged support can still be effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Army-wide 6+ FNP would help (kind of), and would be fluffy (orks are supposed to be tough) but would kick ass if a painboy stacked with it, giving his squad 4+ FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:


Trukks need to not blow up ever

I think that vehicle explosions should be str 3 - think they were in previous editions.

because if you think it sucks for us, think about dark eldar dudes getting wounded on 3s.

The next question is obvious: Have any of you lads had succes in a competitive environment with footsloggers? I haven't. If you have then go along and explain how it works out. If not there is no reason to pursue this line of "fix".

Boy with heavy armour cost 10, thats compared with Scouts or marines too much.
Minimum 1 Strength Point is missing

Traditio wrote:



Also, your comment about Russians is really offensive and ignorant. Please bother to educate yourself before you write things like that.

He was probably referring to was Russian infantry battles in world war II, rather than modern-day Russian military tactics. That being said, comparing ork boyz to WWII Russian soldiers is insensitive, especially since this is an international forum.

I am curious, though. I'm neither Russian, nor a WWII history scholar, but is it inaccurate to say that in WWII, Russian infantry in battles like Stalingrad were treated by their superiors as, for want of a better term, expendable?

It has been portrayed that way in American popular culture (Movies/TV), so I'm honestly interested in the answer.

For what it's worth, I did try to educate myself a bit, and according to Wikipedia, soviet losses in Stalingrad were about 32% higher than axis ones, which is especially significant since they were also defending. That being said, I am curious to know a Russian's thoughts on the topic.

Free Trukks (if there are a lot of them) is actually a pretty good deal. Just make sure they are given free Rams and run them straight at the enemy, empty.

If they can get within an inch of enemy position they will need to either run away or risk getting caught in the explosion.

If some of them survive, tank shock with them.

If nothing else, they've diverted fire from the boyz.

If any formation gave me free trukks I would jump on it.

Kap'n Krump wrote:He was probably referring to was Russian infantry battles in world war II, rather than modern-day Russian military tactics.

Yes. Or, at the very least, how such battles are portrayed in American media.

My understanding is that it's something to the effect of: "Hey, you 10 guys? You're a squad. Here's a gun. He dies? One of you 9 pick it up and keep going! "

That being said, comparing ork boyz to WWII Russian soldiers is insensitive, especially since this is an international forum.

I meant no offense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Free Trukks (if there are a lot of them) is actually a pretty good deal. Just make sure they are given free Rams and run them straight at the enemy, empty.

If they can get within an inch of enemy position they will need to either run away or risk getting caught in the explosion.

If some of them survive, tank shock with them.

If nothing else, they've diverted fire from the boyz.

If any formation gave me free trukks I would jump on it.

I know, right? Fluffy as feth, too, amiright?

Somebody needs to email GW with the suggestion.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Stampede: In the shooting phase, any unit of boyz may run 2d6 rather than 1d6. However, on a roll of doubles, the unit deals 1d6 S4 AP- wounds to itself to simulate the disorganized orks trampling each other while trying to get to the fight. Wounds cannot be allocated to characters.

Maybe throw in some other penalties like they can only make snap shots in their next shooting phase.

I really really like this rule. My suggestion would be to port over the current Mob Rule table to the Stampede ability, where any result of doubles would count as a breakout of the Orks fighting among themselves: a failed Leadership check and the Orks go nowhere.

Then change the Mob Rule ability back to what it used to be, with even Fearless units of Orks still testing for their failed Stampede checks at a maximum of Leadership 10. I'd probably also give all Ork Boyz Hammer of Wrath for free, and have the Ork Horde Detachment bonus give them HoW at Str 5 if they charge over 10 inches.

I'd like to sum my (extended) ideas again, just in case they got lost in the thread.

Give all Orks Counter Attack, because its in their nature to blindly attack.

Change Mob Rule back to a bonus for taking bigger units. Here's my suggestion:

For every 10 models in a unit with the Mob Rule, the unit adds +1 to its Leadership. In addition, if a unit with the Mob Rule is within 6" of a friendly unit with the Mob Rule, it adds + 1 to its Leadership. If their Leadership raises above 10, the unit gains the Fearless special rule. I hope this isn't too complicated. This rewards you for spamming Orks.

Change Ramshackle to: when rolling to penetrate a vehicle with this special rule, roll 2 dice and discard the highest. Give this rule to Trukks, Buggies and Wartraks.

Create Pain Boys to bestow FNP on units.

- Drop eavy armor to 3 ppm
- Nobz are leadership 8 and have 4+ armor by default
- Mob Rule completely redone. [1-3] result dealing D6 hits to non characters, [4-5] auto pass, [6] gain zealot.
- Return the old Ramshackle on death causing [1-2] explodes [3-4] breaks apart [5-6] scatters in a direction for 12" then falls apart.

This would be a big step in the right direction for trukk boyz and fix a large amount of Ork's bad leadership issues (which plagues boyz a lot).

 Vankraken wrote:
- Drop eavy armor to 3 ppm
- Nobz are leadership 8 and have 4+ armor by default
- Mob Rule completely redone. [1-3] result dealing D6 hits to non characters, [4-5] auto pass, [6] gain zealot.
- Return the old Ramshackle on death causing [1-2] explodes [3-4] breaks apart [5-6] scatters in a direction for 12" then falls apart.

This would be a big step in the right direction for trukk boyz and fix a large amount of Ork's bad leadership issues (which plagues boyz a lot).

even at 3ppm eavy armor is to expensive, and the reason for that is the absolute plethora of weapons in this game that ignore 4+ armor.

Mob rule I agree with except for zealot, the game designers would have a conniption fit if orks got a bonus from one of their random roll tables.

Ramshackle, How I miss thee.

How about this; heavy armour costs a flat price of 20pts. So the more models you take the better value it is.

I think trukks, as light and fast vehicles, deserve to get the outflank rule like buggies as well.

mob rule definitely needs a change, and I like the idea of on a 1-3 taking the d6 str 4 hits 4-5 auto pass but on a 6 the unit gains rage.

OK, here's my latest attempt at the Mob Rule:

If all models in a unit have this special rule, roll a D6 when the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any rerolls). If the unit contains more than 15 models, add +1 to the result:

1: Cowardly Gitz: The unit fails the Morale check or Pinning test as normal.

2-3: Squabble: The unit suffers D6 Strength 4 AP - hits, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

4-5: Breaking Heads: For every Ork character in the unit, it suffers 1 Strength 4 AP - hit, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated. If there are no Ork Characters in the unit, they Squabble instead.

6: Born To Fight: If the unit is locked in combat, it is treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it immediately moves 2D6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit, but must stop if it comes to within 1" of an enemy unit.

Bosspoles: If a unit contains a model with a Bosspole, it adds +1 to the result of any Mob Rule tests.

With this system, there's only a small chance your boyz will actually run away or go to ground. And there's a small chance they might plough straight towards the enemy, all the better to assault them in their own turn. And Ork units above 15 models now become almost fearless (but at a small price).

I do think Ork units should be at risk of attacking themselves, due to their nature. They just shouldn't be too penalised for it.

What do you think?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
OK, here's my latest attempt at the Mob Rule:

If all models in a unit have this special rule, roll a D6 when the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any rerolls). If the unit contains more than 15 models, add +1 to the result:

1: Cowardly Gitz: The unit fails the Morale check or Pinning test as normal.

2-3: Squabble: The unit suffers D6 Strength 4 AP - hits, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

4-5: Breaking Heads: For every Ork character in the unit, it suffers 1 Strength 4 AP - hit, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated. If there are no Ork Characters in the unit, they Squabble instead.

6: Born To Fight: If the unit is locked in combat, it is treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it immediately moves 2D6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit, but must stop if it comes to within 1" of an enemy unit.

Bosspoles: If a unit contains a model with a Bosspole, it adds +1 to the result of any Mob Rule tests.

With this system, there's only a small chance your boyz will actually run away or go to ground. And there's a small chance they might plough straight towards the enemy, all the better to assault them in their own turn. And Ork units above 15 models now become almost fearless (but at a small price).

I do think Ork units should be at risk of attacking themselves, due to their nature. They just shouldn't be too penalised for it.

What do you think?

This is absolute garbage, I hate it and I wouldn't want to play with this rule. And yet it is still better then what GW did.

The old mob rule was 10+ models = fearless, anything less and you count that as your leadership, bosspoles allowed you to reroll failed leadership checks at the cost of the nob smacking a random ork in the head, IE 1 ONE!!!! Strength 4 hit AP- not D6.

Why, in an edition that is really bad for assault, and with a codex that is bottom tier at best, are you still trying to penalize the boyz with lots of D6 hits to boyz who have 6+ armor? This is just a stupid mechanic that some idiot at GW wrote down because he never played orks in his entire life and either really hates them or is an incompetent buffoon who shouldn't be allowed to write rules.

Sorry for my rage, but seriously Ork Boyz SUCK in this edition, its rare for me to be able to get them across the board into assault, let alone WIN the assault. Hell I had some boyz assault some Tau Broadsides, by the time they got to the unit the broadsides won the CC because the boyz didn't have enough bodies left to sustain the fight and the Nob whiffed badly.

Boyz need buffs right now, not more complex rules that force them into more D6 random wounds

I still think that mob rule should count wounds, not models (so it helps things like nobz), and should the total wounds involved in a combat.

So, 2 squads of trukk boyz charge the same unit, their 'mob rule' amount counts as 24, not two groups of 12.

If you did that, and made mob rule affect fear tests, and tone it down to D3 hits, it would still be kinda crappy, but workable. Current one is just awful.

@ SemperMortis

Calm yourself down.

@ Kap'n Krump

That's a great idea actually. It would really help small units of nobz a lot. I could go with D3 hits for squabble as well.

That with free nobs for the squads, cheap heavy armour (flat 20pts for a squad?), counter attack, and hammer of wrath at +1 strength to match their furious charge, things might be going in the right direction.

What was wrong with a variation on the old Mob Rule?

An Ork mob with 12+ wounds left, automatically pass morale tests.
An Ork mob with under 12 wounds left MAY use the number of wounds they have left instead of their LD value.

Ork mobs of the same type, may mob up , (join together to make a bigga mob.)If they pass an unmodified LD test.

Grots do not benefit from Mob rule or mob up.(They are far to weedy and cowardly.)

Old mob rule. Shoota boys should cost the same, as its a side-grade at best. Big shootas are free.

I think ork boyz aren't too much of a problem, I think its the fact that things like scatterbikes took over and horde armies aren't worth it. Eldar should be getting the bike and weapon restriction, not ork boyz getting buffed.

Orks have other problems like KFF being gak and nobs being too expensive. Or Flashgits having short range AP useless guns.

I'm no genius at rules, but this is what I would like to see in my Boyz profile:

60 pts
9 Boyz (+20 at 6 pts per Boy)
Choppa+Slugga / Shoota (free)
"Eavy Armor (2 pts per Boy)
S4 T4 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W1 Sv 5+
1 Nob
free 'Eavy Armor
Choppa+Slugga
Big Choppa (5 pts) S+2 AP4 Two-Handed
Power Klaw (20 pts)
Boss Pole (5 pts)
S4 T5 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W2 sv 4+

May take Looted Wagon (WD version) as Dedicated Transport (30 pts)
May take Battlewagon (90 pts with Reinforced Ram, 1 Big Shoota and Armor Plates stock) as Dedicated Transport if unit totals 20 models

Rules:
Mob Rule (10+ Fearless)
'Ere we Go
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Feel No Pain 6+

As for the Trukk, it could be made into an upgrade for a Warbuggy Squad with the option to load up some non-Troops Boyz with 6+ Sv and Shootas, Big Shootas, or Rokkits. Maybe?

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
I'm no genius at rules, but this is what I would like to see in my Boyz profile:

60 pts
9 Boyz (+20 at 6 pts per Boy)
Choppa+Slugga / Shoota (free)
"Eavy Armor (2 pts per Boy)
S4 T4 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W1 Sv 5+
1 Nob
free 'Eavy Armor
Choppa+Slugga
Big Choppa (5 pts) S+2 AP4 Two-Handed
Power Klaw (20 pts)
Boss Pole (5 pts)
S4 T5 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W2 sv 4+

May take Looted Wagon (WD version) as Dedicated Transport (30 pts)
May take Battlewagon (90 pts with Reinforced Ram, 1 Big Shoota and Armor Plates stock) as Dedicated Transport if unit totals 20 models

Rules:
Mob Rule (10+ Fearless)
'Ere we Go
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Feel No Pain 6+

As for the Trukk, it could be made into an upgrade for a Warbuggy Squad with the option to load up some non-Troops Boyz with 6+ Sv and Shootas, Big Shootas, or Rokkits. Maybe?

Seems a bit much honestly. Nobz should be their current profile except have 4+ armor by default and leadership 8. There could be an upgrade for Nob squads called something like "meaner and greener" or something that gives +1 toughness if they aren't on bikes but regular squad nobz should still be T4. Nobz have 3 attacks base.

I would love to see Big Choppas become amazing (considering Wulfen gets a 2 handed +3 str AP2 melee weapon that can swing at initiative on the charge for less than 10 points then why must Big Choppas be such gak). Not sure what to give them but melee weapons across the entire 40k rule set are overpriced except for things like the previously mentioned Wulfen. Extra hits, wounds, or rending on 6s sounds like something a big choppa would do. Lets make Big Choppas great again!

Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.