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What if all Orks had Hammer Of Wraith, and Here We Go is changed to:

Models can reroll one dice when charging and add +1 to the strength of hammer of wraith attacks.

So when an Ork boy unit charges, the enemy unit would have to withstand a barrage of strength 4 (5 for the nob) attacks before they strike. Then the orks will hit them with a ton of strength 4 attacks due to furious charge. With big enough units that should do some damage.

And after I had along think about it, increase boys armour to 5+. If catachans can claim a flak armour save then so can orks.
For choppas and big choppas, give them this stat:

Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User AP: 5
Big Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User +2 AP: 4

So when compared to shoota boyz, they will much better in assault, and will straight up butcher guardsmen, guardians, gaunts and other orks. Meanwhile, big choppas will butcher marine scouts, fire warriors, elite guardsmen etc. Might be worth it in the end.

Just half the point cost for boyz and powerklaws.
Simple and effective.

It would perfectly fit the role GW has chosen for orks.
And it would make footslogging boyz units suddenly not that bad at all.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This would make a boy squad of 30 + nob wth powerclaw ~118 points. This seems about right and I would gladly play a few of those units.

Vankraken wrote:
Seems a bit much honestly. Nobz should be their current profile except have 4+ armor by default and leadership 8. There could be an upgrade for Nob squads called something like "meaner and greener" or something that gives +1 toughness if they aren't on bikes but regular squad nobz should still be T4. Nobz have 3 attacks base.

I would love to see Big Choppas become amazing (considering Wulfen gets a 2 handed +3 str AP2 melee weapon that can swing at initiative on the charge for less than 10 points then why must Big Choppas be such gak). Not sure what to give them but melee weapons across the entire 40k rule set are overpriced except for things like the previously mentioned Wulfen. Extra hits, wounds, or rending on 6s sounds like something a big choppa would do. Lets make Big Choppas great again!

Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.

Ah, my mistake. It is 3 attacks for the Nob. I do like the Counter Attack for Blood Axes (not that I'm biased or anything ). I'm more than a little upset at the current setup for the Big Choppa. I mean come on! If it's big enough that a larger than average Ork has to use two hands to swing it, shouldn't it actually cut something? I own Regicide (a 40k chess game) and the Ork king (a Warboss naturally) uses a Big Choppa and routinely eviscerates and bursts the helmeted heads of Space Marines. The "Meaner n' Greener" rule sounds very good. I think Nobs should have 1 higher Toughness than Boyz because they're bigger and, well...tougher, even if it costs a few extra points. I love the WAAAGH! granting Furious Charge because that's exactly what it is: a furious charge!

I've also been thinking about giving Boyz squads "Grit yer Teef" that gives them +1 to FNP (so a Painboy makes it 5+) and/or Stubborn. This, and a much revised Mob Rule table, would replace their Fearless at 11+ models.

Mob Rule, if under no circumstances it cannot do Fearless (because we can't have armies that don't actually fear the Emprah's "genetically augmented demigods of war." I hate Imperial propaganda), should at least be fun and not dreaded. If the player if afraid to take his basic Troops because they'll implode, how is the army even supposed to get off the ground?

I've been putting together a compilation of home-made rulez to use in my own games because I've decided players know most and GW knows bupkis about writing rules anymore (if they ever did) so I'm probably going to steal more than a few ideas from here!

Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.

Orks SHOULD have counter attack. What is counter attack? It is being charged by an enemy and instead of being scared or preparing a defense you run up and slap the guy in the face with your choppa...That sounds Orky to me.

Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User AP: 5
Big Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User +2 AP: 4

So when compared to shoota boyz, they will much better in assault, and will straight up butcher guardsmen, guardians, gaunts and other orks. Meanwhile, big choppas will butcher marine scouts, fire warriors, elite guardsmen etc. Might be worth it in the end.

See what you just did there? You don't want to make the Orks to good so you give them a handful of gifts that aren't good but will help with "Some" armies. Here is the problem with that, the only armies that routinely use 5+ and 6+ armor are the GARBAGE armies that Orks don't need help beating. Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard are easy to kill with orks. It is the higher level Nonsense that orks have a problem with.

one of the biggest problems in 40k is the gradual ruination of anything not super elite, snow flakey. By that I mean, every weapon getting to the point where it will ignore Ork, Imperial Guard, Tyranid and Dark Elf (sorry Eldar) armor saves. "Ohh we don't want Scatter lasers to be over the fething top stupid OP, instead of giving them AP3 or 4 lets just give them AP6, that way to doesn't sound as bad, unless your an Ork player who only has a fething 6+ armor save". Every time they pass out new and improved weapons and rules they always give them a freebie that makes it easier to kill the weaker armies in the game. FFS Space Marines standard weapon defeats 1/3 of the games armor. AP should be a rarity not something given out for fun to every weapon in the game.

You must have missed my point about +1 Strength Hammer Of Wraith Attacks for all orks and giving them flak armor too.

Glad you changed your mind about Counter Attack though.

This thread cracks me up. Eldar get cheap D weapons like candy, SMs get double digit warp dice, Tyranids get half a dozen FMCs, Tau can ignore whatever save they like but god forbid Orks get some of the perks they had as recently as the last codex when they were still a joke, that would just be game breaking!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
You must have missed my point about +1 Strength Hammer Of Wraith Attacks for all orks and giving them flak armor too.

Glad you changed your mind about Counter Attack though.

No we didnt. But HoW is a joke rule to give us. Half the times in my games I get into close combat with only about 6 guys. The rest trail on backwards. Adding +1 S won't help those 6 attacks very much. Now if mobs were given their own version of HoW that allowed every model to make the attack regardless of making base to base and +1 S, it would go a long way.

mhalko1 wrote:
Now if mobs were given their own version of HoW that allowed every model to make the attack regardless of making base to base and +1 S, it would go a long way.

What if the Strength bonus were based on the number of models in the mob? i.e- 10 or more is +1, 15 or more is +2 and 20 or more is +3? Space Marines doing a poor job of thinning a mob before it hits could end up getting a helping of Strength 6 hits against them before any blows are even struck, and a mob could actually threaten weak armour facings on vehicles if they hit with enough force (I'd picture it like them rocking the vehicle onto its roof rioting mob style).

Give them Without Number.

We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.

Also, squads for Deff Dreads and Jets/Bombas would be fantastic. We get to field more stuff and GW sells more models. Everybody wins. But that's not for this thread.

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.
.

Totally agree there with you. We don't need no semi useless buffs that will make them more killy if they don't get shot before they reach combat. Nor do we need to make them any faster to be there. We just need them to be priced correctly.

 Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote:
We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.

I'm good with that, although I would really like it if Ork Boyz don't suffer from disordered charges because their charges are always disordered...No loss of attack bonus or furious charge.

Can't help but think this thread is getting rather messy. The problem should be simple to solve, really.

The biggest problem with Boyz is that they struggle for relevance, and haven't scaled along with the other basic troops in the game.

Stat changes, I think, are unhelpful. The most compelling suggestions I've seen are the '+1S' and 'army-wide 6+ FnP' ones, but I think these could easily be accomplished by just modifying the 'Ere we go' and 'Waaagh' rules.

'Ere we go: Units comprised entirely of models with this special rule may always roll an additional D6 when determining Run and Charge moves. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule benefit from a 6+ Feel No Pain save.

WAAAGH!: When it charges into combat, a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule count as having the Hammer of Wrath special rule. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule inflict their HoW hits at +1 Strength.

The other change I might suggest is that Choppas be given their own profile again. I've often argued that Chainswords and Mono-edged blades should be Ap5, and I'd be inclined to include Choppas in that.

It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.

It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.

I have 300+ painted boyz.I can assure you that just running them n b;obz no longer is successfully.

 oldzoggy wrote:

It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.

I have 300+ painted boyz.I can assure you that just running them n b;obz no longer is successfully.

Yeah. Since 4th Edition the average weapon on the 40k battlefield has gained strength, gained shots and gained Ignores Cover - but Boyz have remained the same. THAT is what's so harsh these days.

Yeah. I used to run blobs of 30 boyz, and they're so damn slow that they just get whittled down before they can get anywhere. I still bring a lot of boyz to the table though, around 70 or so, but that number is becoming smaller and smaller as I gain more options.

 Spineyguy wrote:
Can't help but think this thread is getting rather messy. The problem should be simple to solve, really.

The biggest problem with Boyz is that they struggle for relevance, and haven't scaled along with the other basic troops in the game.

Stat changes, I think, are unhelpful. The most compelling suggestions I've seen are the '+1S' and 'army-wide 6+ FnP' ones, but I think these could easily be accomplished by just modifying the 'Ere we go' and 'Waaagh' rules.

'Ere we go: Units comprised entirely of models with this special rule may always roll an additional D6 when determining Run and Charge moves. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule benefit from a 6+ Feel No Pain save.

WAAAGH!: When it charges into combat, a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule count as having the Hammer of Wrath special rule. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule inflict their HoW hits at +1 Strength.

The other change I might suggest is that Choppas be given their own profile again. I've often argued that Chainswords and Mono-edged blades should be Ap5, and I'd be inclined to include Choppas in that.

It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.

The problem with all those "buffs" and I hate to use that word, is that smaller scale units don't benefit at all, so trukk boyz (the most common type of boy atm) remain garbage. Furthermore, +1 strength for HoW doesn't help anything, realistically how many models can you get in base to base with an enemy unit? usually 1-6, with 6+ being rather hard to get, So those S4 AP - don't really help to much. And 6+ FNP doesn't do anything at all. Thats basically giving boyz back their 6+ armor save, because it used to be weapons with AP were rare, now its handed out like candy.

And AP5 Choppas doesn't help boyz with the units we currently have problems with, it just makes it easier to beat up the crappy armies in the game (Orks, IG, Nids, hell even Chaos (cultists)) more then we already do.

Orks need a REAL buff not something half arsed that is only good in certain situations (IE 20+ Blobs) because realistically if im foot slogging 30 boyz I expect to lose 15 per squad before they even get close to the enemy. There goes my buffs

So I had a game yesterday where a 30 man squad of boys charged a blood thirster with 2 wounds left. It was the D thirster. He held that unit up for 5 turns. Mainly because HoW couldn't hurt him due to some war gear he had that made all attacks -1 S. And after the first turn not 1 ork boy could hurt T 6 due to -1S. Now I killed it Turn 5 ( my brother being my opponent knows the ork struggle and saw how I was starting to get tabled refused to issue a challenge) that S7 power klaw finally got the final wound removed. Boys are gak and don't mean anything in this game.

I would have liked to think that they could deal 2 wounds but no. Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest Rending for both little and big choppas. Everyone is afraid of Rending. Rending damages the front of Dreadnaughts and kills MCs dead. With Rending Orks could literally chop anything to death, and getting into an assault with them will be a bad idea.

All orks have FnP(6)

If the unit has a painboy they add +1 to fnp rolls.

Any model with cybork adds +1 to xml rolls.

A painboy can remove a grot orderly to allow the unit to reroll fnp rolls against a wound pool but must reroll all the dice and accept the new results.

Alternatively, or also make ork unit costs non linear.

Ie 10 orks is 60pts, each additional ork is 4 pts.

mhalko1 wrote:
Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.

Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets. The tactic for Eldar in the earlier editions was to not get caught out in the open like an idiot.

EDIT: has anyone tried playing 7th edition without jink?

 Phydox wrote:
3 fixes for Boyz:

1. Bring back the choppa rule that no armor gets better then a 4+ save.

2. Bring back the "Mob up" rule that said fleeing units can join non fleeing units if they pass a leadership roll.

3. Bring back Leadership based on mob size,

I see someone else played Orks in 4th(?)

The Mob Up rule was great, kept the tide moving forwards with as many bodies as possible and also represented Orks fluff behaviour on the tabletop.

 Don Savik wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.

Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.

That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.

pm713 wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.

Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.

That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.

So then a to-hit modifier would make more sense.....if 40k did hit modifiers.

 Don Savik wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.

Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.

That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.

So then a to-hit modifier would make more sense.....if 40k did hit modifiers.

If to hit modifiers weren't a pain the backside.....

It made more sense before when the save changed depending on how fast you went.

My suggestion for how to improve green tide style lists would be to have painboys available as a unit upgrade.

my current get around for this is to run mogrok's boss boys for my 'HQs' and then have painboys on the horde detachment its just about doable at 1250pts giving me 90 boys with FNP.

this makes them a massive amount more resilient in my experience and means i usually get around 20 from each blob into combat

Jdregius wrote:
My suggestion for how to improve green tide style lists would be to have painboys available as a unit upgrade.

my current get around for this is to run mogrok's boss boys for my 'HQs' and then have painboys on the horde detachment its just about doable at 1250pts giving me 90 boys with FNP.

this makes them a massive amount more resilient in my experience and means i usually get around 20 from each blob into combat

Thats not a bad suggestion, but its hopelessly expensive and hard to do for MSU style lists. My goal is to try and bring Boyz back as a relevant unit, regardless of size.

SemperMortis wrote:


Thats not a bad suggestion, but its hopelessly expensive and hard to do for MSU style lists. My goal is to try and bring Boyz back as a relevant unit, regardless of size.

the thing is we have the tools to make them effective at the other sizes,

sub 12 you run trukks and make use of them as cover, distractions and tank shocks,

12 - 20 you run them in battlewagons, we have a formation that allows us to take 5 of them!

20 plus is where they come unstuck to me unless you can cram in enough painboys or KFF meks

the thing is is that boys are not an island no unit is, run a full list of tactical squads you wont get too far in a competetive game, you need to use all the tools available to make any list work.

Lootas will pull fire away from boys, as will deffkoptas warbuggies Kans and grot tanks.

use any of these make them seem important and dangerous people will throw enough at them to give boys a chance

That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.

While I'm still fairly new to 40k (only started playing right near the end of 6th edition), if we are talking on just how to make Boyz better, some of my ideas would be:

- A special rule that allows them to run a fixed extra distance. Someone earlier suggested 2D6 with doubles causing some wounds, but I feel that would obliterate the purpose of trucks, making them 100% useless. So, instead, allow them to run a bit faster for when you run big blobs.

- Retool the Mob Rule rule so leadership isn't virtually non-existent.

- Make shoota a free upgrade. Not much of a change, but they are merely OK at best and with how fast Boyz die, and how close you need to be in order to use them...they are often wasted points EVERY time they are taken.

- Make 'Eavy Armor cheaper.

- Make the Boyz Nob upgrades a little less expensive. Especialy Power Klaws. It's a great weapon, but it's not worth the same price on a Nob as it is on a Warboss. Even making it 20 points as opposed to 25 would help in the long run.

- Increase the amount of special weapons Boyz can use. Only 1 per 10 feels quite unorky overall, and only getting three feels like a big waste considering our crappy BS. Even upping it to 2 specials per 10 would be a lot better IMO.

I know some of these have been suggested, and not all should be applied. Just some of the ones that come to mind right away.

I'd also love it if Grots weren't total buns. I'm still sore we never got a Grot sniper crew of some kind to let us make even more use of that rare BS3.