Are Riptides Fair/Balanced?

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**Jancoran**

jreilly89 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
What people who don't play The Tau Empire usually just don't consider is how much assault has crept back into the game as a good tactic to embrace. So many things in the game IF ALLOWED TO DO THEIR THING UNMITIGATED will indeed plow your fields for you. Jetbikes? riptides? All of it if allowed will definitely eat you. not allowing it is what you have to figure out. Some do it through AV (to nerf the Scatterbikes0 on the way in and others do it through deployment shenanigans and so on.

Assault solves so much against Tau. the simplicity of a pincer move against them cant even BE overstated. tau simply do NOT want you behind them or around them and if you have a plan to get that close, you have a legit shot at them.

Riptides, which is our subject matter specifically, are no great shakes as combatants. 3 attacks STR 6 AP 2 on WS 2. ANYTHING that is at least decent in melee can handle that. the Riptide will likely have a 3+ invul and he might take an extra round to take down because of it, but then...you don't want to kill the Riptide on the charge anyways, you want him dead in the subsequent round of combat. Get your force weapon in there and do work or thunder hammers or whatevs. Alternatively, mire it in fearless swarms or some other throw away. There are a lot of answers. I won't lie and say that a Riptide wont shoot the bajeezus out of you on the way in. it will. But then, the guy wielding him paid points for his stuff too. It's not like its any different than you doing to to them.

So ultimately, a couple of good melee units in a force is pretty advisable these days for many forces that want to come to grips with the Tau Empire.

The Riptide Formation is kinda insane so that is a real problem. You essentially just get massively rewarded for taking three Riptides...only you can take 9. So... It's the Formation that truly gives that model its fangs. On their own I think they are just 200 points well spent. with the Formation? yeah. Really a different picture then.

Jancoran, are you serious? For most armies, assaulting is worse than shooting. Really, if I had to pick my way to handle a Riptide (which I've done), hands down it is Grav. Grav is easier, has none of the repercussions of assault (Overwatch, being hit back with AP 2), and can be done from a pretty good distance. Assault only works with either A) your own MC or B) you throw on Invisibility or hit him with a deathstar unit, preferably both.

Yet...most armies dont have Grav. So in speaking to a broader audience, "grav" is only an answer for some. And if everyone wanted to play Space Mariens i suppose that would be a good enough answer, until it pops the 3+ invul. So there's that. I think assault is wiser. I say this as a (primarily) Tau Empire general, but one who owsn and plays every force but three. I have yet to find a more sure solution. "Going first" isn't really advice, so i kind of avoid assuming someone will auto go first and drop pod in and all the good stuff you need to do.

**Martel732**

Why does anyone think grav is a solution when it has a 3++ 2/3 of the time?

Jancoran, none of my units can beat the Riptide in CC. Still think CC is a good idea? S6 AP2 kills marines real good. WS and init are garbage stats.

**Traditio**

Wolfblade wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

I voted yes, because compared to the game as a whole, yes they're balanced. And you didn't provide the proper option ("Yes, but some of the upgrades being too cheap is what can break the riptide") They could be better balanced, but that applies to almost everything. I'd say a riptide is just as balanced as free transports. Or grav. Or scatbikes. Or anything the other top tier codices do. (inb4 comment about OP bullgak not being ok)

Besides, the majority agrees that the riptide is balanced, since that's the only thing that matters right?

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

**the_scotsman**

OP gets into argument.

OP makes an appeal to majority stating that the majority of players in the game agree with him.

OP makes his own poll thread to attempt to get something to point to with his appeal.

The majority disagrees with OP.

OP claims the results are due to some unfair manipulation, people misunderstanding the poll, or some other mitigating factor, and proceeds to make his argument anyway.

The thread then goes on for five pages of people shouting their opinions.

Have I sufficiently summarized the average day on Dakka?

**TheCustomLime**

the_scotsman wrote:
OP gets into argument.

OP makes an appeal to majority stating that the majority of players in the game agree with him.

OP makes his own poll thread to attempt to get something to point to with his appeal.

The majority disagrees with OP.

OP claims the results are due to some unfair manipulation, people misunderstanding the poll, or some other mitigating factor, and proceeds to make his argument anyway.

The thread then goes on for five pages of people shouting their opinions.

Have I sufficiently summarized the average day on Dakka?

Nah. Just your average Tradito poll. Seriously, a good chunk of them are like this.

**pm713**

the_scotsman wrote:
OP gets into argument.

OP makes an appeal to majority stating that the majority of players in the game agree with him.

OP makes his own poll thread to attempt to get something to point to with his appeal.

The majority disagrees with OP.

OP claims the results are due to some unfair manipulation, people misunderstanding the poll, or some other mitigating factor, and proceeds to make his argument anyway.

The thread then goes on for five pages of people shouting their opinions.

Have I sufficiently summarized the average day on Dakka?

No. Things usually go on for longer when it's Traditio. Two pages of yelling and taking out the part about OP claiming the poll is misunderstood or something and I'd say you're spot on.

**Jacksmiles**

Traditio wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

I voted yes, because compared to the game as a whole, yes they're balanced. And you didn't provide the proper option ("Yes, but some of the upgrades being too cheap is what can break the riptide") They could be better balanced, but that applies to almost everything. I'd say a riptide is just as balanced as free transports. Or grav. Or scatbikes. Or anything the other top tier codices do. (inb4 comment about OP bullgak not being ok)

Besides, the majority agrees that the riptide is balanced, since that's the only thing that matters right?

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

"You've voiced your opinion wrong" is how that came off.

**kronk**

Traditio wrote:

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

What if...neither are balanced?

What if...most of us want all of the codecies to be on a level playing field.

What if..."Yeah, X is overpowered, but Y is even more overpowered" is not a valid argument, and many of us are sick of hearing that gak?

**Wolfblade**

Traditio wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

I voted yes, because compared to the game as a whole, yes they're balanced. And you didn't provide the proper option ("Yes, but some of the upgrades being too cheap is what can break the riptide") They could be better balanced, but that applies to almost everything. I'd say a riptide is just as balanced as free transports. Or grav. Or scatbikes. Or anything the other top tier codices do. (inb4 comment about OP bullgak not being ok)

Besides, the majority agrees that the riptide is balanced, since that's the only thing that matters right?

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

Not especially unbalanced, I just think they're either about the same, or more OP than the riptide. They're pretty well balanced between the post decurion codices. When they become OP is when you start taking those against pre decurion codices. But yes, against overall to get back to the original point, I believe the riptide is not OP, and is pretty close to being balanced.

**insaniak**

Traditio wrote:
. If you compare the riptide to the game as a whole and all possible unit selections, the riptide is patently OP.

But that's exactly the problem: you're not comparing the Riptide to the game as a whole. You're comparing it to the specific parts of the game that you personally approve of, and disregarding the options that balance out the Riptide.

You can't refuse to take anything that's capable of countering a given unit and then complain that you have nothing capable of countering that unit.

**Traditio**

insaniak wrote:But that's exactly the problem: you're not comparing the Riptide to the game as a whole. You're comparing it to the specific parts of the game that you personally approve of, and disregarding the options that balance out the Riptide.

You can't refuse to take anything that's capable of countering a given unit and then complain that you have nothing capable of countering that unit.

Except, I didn't say this latter. I didn't say that the SM codex has no options which counter the riptide.

At any rate, you're not disagreeing with me. What I'm saying is that if you compare the riptide to the OP gak in other codices, then the riptide is fine. If you compare it to the things that people don't normally complain about, then it's OP gak.

Your answer, insaniak, in turn is: "But if you compare it to the OP gak in other codices..."

You're engaging in a purely verbal disagreement with me.

----------------

----------------

At any rate, consideration on the poll thus far:

It's a pretty even split. 55% thus far disagree with me, 45% agree with me. When you take into account things like standard deviation, etc., this is a very even split.

I suspect that as time goes on, the numbers will progressively become more in my favor. What we saw in the first several hours of the poll, I wager, are a number of people voting because they saw the disagreement, or else, engaged in the disagreement, in the other thread.

Then, of course, you have all of the competitive Tau, Space Marine, Necron and Eldar players chiming in.

Once more people read the discussion and vote, especially the more casual players, we are likely to see numbers, I think, ranging anywhere from a 50/50 even split to possibly even numbers slightly in my favor.

This is just speculation on my part. I'm eager to see how it plays out.

Even now, though, the numbers well support this point:

Whether or not the riptide is OP is hotly contested, and there's sufficient dissent on the matter to warrant not bringing them to casual games.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

What if...neither are balanced?

What if...most of us want all of the codecies to be on a level playing field.

What if..."Yeah, X is overpowered, but Y is even more overpowered" is not a valid argument, and many of us are sick of hearing that gak?

That's exactly the point that I'm making, Kronk.

**Kanluwen**

Wolfblade wrote:

Strawman? I don't think so, I was trying to illustrate my point that the upgrades being super cheap are the problem, not the base riptide itself. The base riptide is decent, it threatens all targets but isn't an auto include by itself. When you toss in a pretty much free upgrade to the IA, and 35pts for a FNP for 6 wounds at T6, then you get a super tough model with decent damage output.

You get a super tough model, period, because it's a Monstrous Creature and not a vehicle.
You get a super tough model, period, because it has no business having access to ANY of the upgrades it has access to.
You get a super tough model, period, because they have a ridiculous lack of penalty for using their Nova Reactor.

Saying that the Riptide "isn't an autoinclude" is a joke. They've been an auto-include for almost two editions now, because really what are they really competing against?
Crisis Suit Teams can be taken as Troops via Farsight Enclaves OR as bodyguard units for a Commander OR now in decent numbers as part of a formation (Retaliation Cadre--which actually includes a Riptide as part of it as well)...where it doesn't matter about your slots.
Stealth Teams were considered a bit of a joke, and the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits both can be taken as part of a formation.

And lets be honest. You just compared a top tier codex to one of the worst codices around. I don't think it's fair to compare pre-decurion to post-decurion seeing as how both are on vastly different levels.

You are aware that both Guard and Tau got their Decurions in the same series of books(Kauyon for Tau Empire, Mont'ka for Farsight and Cadians), right?

The only difference is that Tau got access to more Riptides via theirs while Guard got shafted with 800+ point Core formations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
Traditio wrote:
. If you compare the riptide to the game as a whole and all possible unit selections, the riptide is patently OP.

But that's exactly the problem: you're not comparing the Riptide to the game as a whole. You're comparing it to the specific parts of the game that you personally approve of, and disregarding the options that balance out the Riptide.

You can't refuse to take anything that's capable of countering a given unit and then complain that you have nothing capable of countering that unit.

I'm sorry, but it's a bit of a farce to pretend that Gladius benefits(free transports for your two Battle Demi-Companies[6x Tactical Squads, a Captain and a Chaplain, 2x Assault Squads, 2x Devastator Squads with options to replace the Assaults or Devastators with various units]) somehow balances out the Riptide for Space Marine players.

Sure, Grav does solve the issue a bit...but Grav is expensive and requires you to remain stationary unless you're able to fire Salvo with no penalties.

**Wolfblade**

Woah woah woah, no speech on how we need a full day for results? Or any other nonsense like that? Just because the poll is close you decide to call it earlier than your other ones?

Are you seriously going to try and claim this as a legit poll despite your massive bias in it, poor options to vote for, and your own claim of trolls?

**Traditio**

The message that Tau players should take from this and the previous polls:

If you take a riptide, a stormsurge or a ghost keel (insofar as GMCs) to a casual game, expect your choice of opponents to be significantly restricted.

**Kanluwen**

kronk wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Do you think that free transports, grav, scatbikes, etc. are balanced?

If you don't, then you've voted incorrectly.

What if...neither are balanced?

What if...most of us want all of the codecies to be on a level playing field.

What if..."Yeah, X is overpowered, but Y is even more overpowered" is not a valid argument, and many of us are sick of hearing that gak?

Speaking bluntly, while Scatter Bikes are annoying it's not just the weapon that is the issue.

It's the cheap points cost of a Jetbike unit to begin with and the ability to outfit an entire squad with what amounts to a heavy or special weapon along with the survival offered by Cover saves coupled with Jink and the Psyker abilities of a Warlock.
Tweak any one of those factors and it suddenly becomes a bit more balanced.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
The message that Tau players should take from this and the previous polls:

If you take a riptide, a stormsurge or a ghost keel (insofar as GMCs) to a casual game, expect your choice of opponents to be significantly restricted.

That seems like quite the claim. I highly doubt a significant amount of people would refuse games.

**Vaktathi**

Kanluwen wrote:

Saying that the Riptide "isn't an autoinclude" is a joke. They've been an auto-include for almost two editions now, because really what are they really competing against?

On this note, I literally cannot recall seeing a single game involving a Tau army above 750pts or so that *didn't* have a Riptide since they came out in 2013.

To me, that is by far the largest indicator that something is wrong.

**Blacksails**

The message Traditio should take from this and the previous polls:

Traditio should stop making bad polls and should feel bad.

Let's all remember that Traditio said trolls ruined this poll when it was decidedly against his opinion, but the moment it came "close enough", it was declared he was right.

**Wolfblade**

Traditio wrote:
The message that Tau players should take from this and the previous polls:

If you take a riptide, a stormsurge or a ghost keel (insofar as GMCs) to a casual game, expect your choice of opponents to be significantly restricted.

Only the SS of that is a GMC (you also forgot the Tau'nar, which is imo the only actually severely OP unit). But besides that, literally every poll you have ever made has been slanted as much as possible to serve your purpose instead of what you claim (a survey of the community), and every time the results disagree with you, it's trolls. Or whatever you want it to be, and then you try and twist it to still serve whatever you want. Literally take this poll for example. Hasn't been a day like every other poll you've done, but it's close enough for you so you call it.

Kanluwen wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:

Strawman? I don't think so, I was trying to illustrate my point that the upgrades being super cheap are the problem, not the base riptide itself. The base riptide is decent, it threatens all targets but isn't an auto include by itself. When you toss in a pretty much free upgrade to the IA, and 35pts for a FNP for 6 wounds at T6, then you get a super tough model with decent damage output.

You get a super tough model, period, because it's a Monstrous Creature and not a vehicle.
You get a super tough model, period, because it has no business having access to ANY of the upgrades it has access to.
You get a super tough model, period, because they have a ridiculous lack of penalty for using their Nova Reactor.

Saying that the Riptide "isn't an autoinclude" is a joke. They've been an auto-include for almost two editions now, because really what are they really competing against?
Crisis Suit Teams can be taken as Troops via Farsight Enclaves OR as bodyguard units for a Commander OR now in decent numbers as part of a formation (Retaliation Cadre--which actually includes a Riptide as part of it as well)...where it doesn't matter about your slots.
Stealth Teams were considered a bit of a joke, and the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits both can be taken as part of a formation.

And lets be honest. You just compared a top tier codex to one of the worst codices around. I don't think it's fair to compare pre-decurion to post-decurion seeing as how both are on vastly different levels.

You are aware that both Guard and Tau got their Decurions in the same series of books(Kauyon for Tau Empire, Mont'ka for Farsight and Cadians), right?

The only difference is that Tau got access to more Riptides via theirs while Guard got shafted with 800+ point Core formations.

I said the base riptide isn't an auto include and meant to imply with the upgrades it is. Also, not all MCs are super tough. Take literally any MC the nids have pretty much. Even plasma shuts them down pretty easily.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
Traditio wrote:
. If you compare the riptide to the game as a whole and all possible unit selections, the riptide is patently OP.

But that's exactly the problem: you're not comparing the Riptide to the game as a whole. You're comparing it to the specific parts of the game that you personally approve of, and disregarding the options that balance out the Riptide.

You can't refuse to take anything that's capable of countering a given unit and then complain that you have nothing capable of countering that unit.

I'm sorry, but it's a bit of a farce to pretend that Gladius benefits(free transports for your two Battle Demi-Companies[6x Tactical Squads, a Captain and a Chaplain, 2x Assault Squads, 2x Devastator Squads with options to replace the Assaults or Devastators with various units]) somehow balances out the Riptide for Space Marine players.

Sure, Grav does solve the issue a bit...but Grav is expensive and requires you to remain stationary unless you're able to fire Salvo with no penalties.

I.e. bikes, centurions, and even rhinos provide a decent way to get the grav around.

Also, the gladius gives up to 550 points free. How does that not equal a riptide? That 350 to 550 free points is easily spent on upgrades or other units to deal with the riptide(s)

**pm713**

The 550 points aren't free to Traditio.

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:
The 550 points aren't free to Traditio.

I'm going to nip this in the bud right now:

No. The battle company isn't fair. No, formations in general aren't fair.

No, a feth ton of stuff in this game isn't fair.

GW needs to go back to CADs only and they need to balance their fething units on an individual basis.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:
The 550 points aren't free to Traditio.

I'm going to nip this in the bud right now:

No. The battle company isn't fair. No, formations in general aren't fair.

No, a feth ton of stuff in this game isn't fair.

GW needs to go back to CADs only and they need to balance their fething units on an individual basis.

Yay we can all have the same army structure. How boring. Let's go back to having unique FOC's instead.

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:Yay we can all have the same army structure. How boring. Let's go back to having unique FOC's instead.

We don't NEED unique FOCs. You can take as many CADs as you want. You want 3 HQs? Then take 4 troop choices.

**insaniak**

Traditio wrote:
The message that Tau players should take from this and the previous polls:

If you take a riptide, a stormsurge or a ghost keel (insofar as GMCs) to a casual game, expect your choice of opponents to be significantly restricted.

Even if one accepts the premise that the Riptide is OP, it's a bit of a leap from there to 'expect people to refuse to play against it'.

Traditio wrote:

At any rate, you're not disagreeing with me. What I'm saying is that if you compare the riptide to the OP gak in other codices, then the riptide is fine. If you compare it to the things that people don't normally complain about, then it's OP gak.

Your answer, insaniak, in turn is: "But if you compare it to the OP gak in other codices..."

You're engaging in a purely verbal disagreement with me.
.

Yes, in a discussion using words, I'm using words to disagree with you.

**Martel732**

"somehow balances out the Riptide for Space Marine players. "

It makes the marines a horde army. You just have more stuff than the Tau can make you pick up.

**Wolfblade**

Why are formations unfair? Some are fine, some are OP, some are UP I.e. the first company task force is an ok formation. Nothing game breaking about what units you can take, or what rules it gives. Compare it however to a lib conclave which is fairly powerful with the ability to put a large number of psykers down, and improve how easy it is to cast psychic powers. Or any of the IG formations which suck incredibly hard by giving meager bonuses for a huge point investment in bad units.

What I'm saying is, not all formations are bad. Not all of them are game breaking. The vast majority are probably average at best, it's a few that give all formations a bad rep. (i.e. gladius, lib conclave, riptide wing.)

also I want to ask again: Are you seriously going to try and claim this as a legit poll despite your massive bias in it, poor options to vote for, and your own claim of trolls? Or are you going to ignore anything that calls you out on it as norm? (I'm guessing the norm.)

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:Yay we can all have the same army structure. How boring. Let's go back to having unique FOC's instead.

We don't NEED unique FOCs. You can take as many CADs as you want. You want 3 HQs? Then take 4 troop choices.

You don't NEED more than one option per slot. But it makes the game better.

Or do you want to argue that every army becomes exactly the same? Actually that would make the game pretty fair and balanced. Good job we found the solution to imbalance!

**Martel732**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:Yay we can all have the same army structure. How boring. Let's go back to having unique FOC's instead.

We don't NEED unique FOCs. You can take as many CADs as you want. You want 3 HQs? Then take 4 troop choices.

Force orgs don't matter. Only the costing of individual models does. If units were appropriately costed, 6 HQs vs 6 elites would be fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Why are formations unfair? Some are fine, some are OP, some are UP I.e. the first company task force is an ok formation. Nothing game breaking about what units you can take, or what rules it gives. Compare it however to a lib conclave which is fairly powerful with the ability to put a large number of psykers down, and improve how easy it is to cast psychic powers. Or any of the IG formations which suck incredibly hard by giving meager bonuses for a huge point investment in bad units.

What I'm saying is, not all formations are bad. Not all of them are game breaking. The vast majority are probably average at best, it's a few that give all formations a bad rep. (i.e. gladius, lib conclave, riptide wing.)

There is exactly one useful BA formation, imo.

**Traditio**

Wolfblade wrote:Why are formations unfair?

Because you're getting free bonuses that you didn't pay for that were not accounted for in the costs of the units that make up those formations.

Formations not only are unfair, but they're also completely unnecessary.

I can already take 5 units of sternguard if I want to do that with CADs. All I have to do is take 2 HQs and 4 troop choices to go with them.

Ultimately, that seems fair.

**Peregrine**

Blacksails wrote:
Let's all remember that Traditio said trolls ruined this poll when it was decidedly against his opinion, but the moment it came "close enough", it was declared he was right.

Yep. Just as I predicted back on the first page of the thread.