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There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

 Quickjager wrote:
The poll will be flawed unless it's anonymity is dispelled, we need to know who plays Tau and who doesn't to weigh it correctly. This board has a significant amount of new Tau players.

Firstly, yeah, the poll is poorly constructed because it was a kneejerk reaction to the other thread rather than a genuine attempt to elicit opinions.

Secondly, perhaps there are a lot of Tau players, I'd still be surprised if out of 64 people who voted "Yes" they are exclusively Tau or people posting in response to the other thread.

Thirdly, what difference does it make if there are some Tau players? This poll was in direct response to the other thread where we were talking about self neutering your army to supposedly balance it off against another army. That idea requires consensus on what is balanced, not just among the non-Tau players but also the Tau players. Sure, if you're writing a comp that you intend to impose on other players (rather than playing a "friendly" game) then ignoring Tau opinions is probably more useful, but in the "friendly" environment, Tau opinions are equally valid.

You need to come to an agreement with your opponent - possibly the person who is playing Tau.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Good tournament players do. Those guys are super speedy and obsec. Scatlasers win games, obsec wins tournaments.

Formations have done more to unbalance them than the actual model. Just my opinion.

No, they're not. Also, just because other stuff is more OP, does not invalidate the Riptide from being OP. Context and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Formations have done more to unbalance them than the actual model. Just my opinion.

Like the Riptide Wing?

 Jancoran wrote:
Formations have done more to unbalance them than the actual model. Just my opinion.

^Nailed it.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
The poll will be flawed unless it's anonymity is dispelled, we need to know who plays Tau and who doesn't to weigh it correctly. This board has a significant amount of new Tau players.

You make it sound like ALL tau players will vote yes. I voted yes, but I wish there had been an option for "Yes, but EWO, stimms and IA could use a bit of a price adjustment" (or a more general "yes, but some options for the riptide need a price adjustment").

Because the riptide IS fine, unless you seriously want to tell me that the HBC is OP too.

That's a strawman argument. The existence of a less than amazing option does not change the Riptide's status.

It's the upgrades that are underpriced really.

It's the existence of the upgrades, period, for the Riptide that are the issue.

Can you imagine the pissing and moaning if Leman Russ tanks could get Mine Ploughs(2D6 for dangerous terrain; test only failed if both rolls are 1s. in addition whenever the vehicle moves through an enemy Infantry unit as part of a Tank Shock move and is not destroyed, the enemy unit takes D3+1 S2 AP- hits), Artificer Hulls(+1 Hull Point to a maximum of 5), Armoured Track Guards(4+ save against Immobilised results on the Vehicle Damage table), and Anti-Grenade Mesh(5+ save against any damage inflicted by any type of grenades, including Melta Bombs) from Imperial Armour for the same points costs as Stimms on Riptides?

That's 60 points worth of upgrades for Leman Russes to get them a 4+ save against Immobilised, 5+ against grenades, 4 Hull Points, 2D6 on Dangerous Terrain tests only failing on snake eyes...versus 35 flipping points to grant FNP to a Riptide; granting them a fourth way to potentially avoid losing Wounds(2+ save, 5+/3+ Nova'd Invuln, Cover saves, or FNP).

The Riptide, if it were held to the same standard as vehicles, would be a joke.

Compared to the power creep setting in with the other armies yes. Riptides are now quaint. The FAQ also "nerfed" them by reminding people their nova shots on the Ion Accelerator are ordinance so it could fire that and not its other gun. I rarely used my nova reactor for shooting when playing since I remembered that rule and liked to be mobile and use both my guns, or if I did I shot at targets outside my support guns range. So all is well.

Meh I've gone from hating the damn things to normally killing them turn one....

There's nothing quaint about the riptide even compared to the newest codices.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Meh I've gone from hating the damn things to normally killing them turn one....

Too soon...!

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh look, an 80/20 split in favor of "yes, Riptides are balanced". Is this going to be another poll where it's "trolls are voting to ruin my poll" as long as it goes against you, and "see, everyone agrees with me" if/when it turns in your favor?

Trolls are definitely ruining my poll.

That said, just wait a day or two. The numbers will be changing soon enough, I wager.

Tradito, you are one of the largest trolls on Dakka, and you hammer the same 2 points endlessly. Go home to your bridge.

Definitely not balanced for its points cost; as a Tyranid played I pay way more for having less...

How do we get a rule in place that prevents people starting threads if they have an overly high thread to post ratio?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Meh I've gone from hating the damn things to normally killing them turn one....

But can you do that with a battle company that has all of the wrong weapons?

No? Obviously OP. As is your army. Let's have a poll about that that so I can backup my opinion with a "consensus".

I think the riptide wing is more broken than individual riptides, personally - despite the fact that they are essentially unkillable by orks.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think the riptide wing is more broken than individual riptides, personally - despite the fact that they are essentially unkillable by orks.

I like formations generally but Riptides really didn't need a way to easily include more of them in your army plus a decent special rule.

What people who don't play The Tau Empire usually just don't consider is how much assault has crept back into the game as a good tactic to embrace. So many things in the game IF ALLOWED TO DO THEIR THING UNMITIGATED will indeed plow your fields for you. Jetbikes? riptides? All of it if allowed will definitely eat you. not allowing it is what you have to figure out. Some do it through AV (to nerf the Scatterbikes0 on the way in and others do it through deployment shenanigans and so on.

Assault solves so much against Tau. the simplicity of a pincer move against them cant even BE overstated. tau simply do NOT want you behind them or around them and if you have a plan to get that close, you have a legit shot at them.

Riptides, which is our subject matter specifically, are no great shakes as combatants. 3 attacks STR 6 AP 2 on WS 2. ANYTHING that is at least decent in melee can handle that. the Riptide will likely have a 3+ invul and he might take an extra round to take down because of it, but then...you don't want to kill the Riptide on the charge anyways, you want him dead in the subsequent round of combat. Get your force weapon in there and do work or thunder hammers or whatevs. Alternatively, mire it in fearless swarms or some other throw away. There are a lot of answers. I won't lie and say that a Riptide wont shoot the bajeezus out of you on the way in. it will. But then, the guy wielding him paid points for his stuff too. It's not like its any different than you doing to to them.

So ultimately, a couple of good melee units in a force is pretty advisable these days for many forces that want to come to grips with the Tau Empire.

The Riptide Formation is kinda insane so that is a real problem. You essentially just get massively rewarded for taking three Riptides...only you can take 9. So... It's the Formation that truly gives that model its fangs. On their own I think they are just 200 points well spent. with the Formation? yeah. Really a different picture then.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
The poll will be flawed unless it's anonymity is dispelled, we need to know who plays Tau and who doesn't to weigh it correctly. This board has a significant amount of new Tau players.

You make it sound like ALL tau players will vote yes. I voted yes, but I wish there had been an option for "Yes, but EWO, stimms and IA could use a bit of a price adjustment" (or a more general "yes, but some options for the riptide need a price adjustment").

Because the riptide IS fine, unless you seriously want to tell me that the HBC is OP too.

That's a strawman argument. The existence of a less than amazing option does not change the Riptide's status.

It's the upgrades that are underpriced really.

It's the existence of the upgrades, period, for the Riptide that are the issue.

Can you imagine the pissing and moaning if Leman Russ tanks could get Mine Ploughs(2D6 for dangerous terrain; test only failed if both rolls are 1s. in addition whenever the vehicle moves through an enemy Infantry unit as part of a Tank Shock move and is not destroyed, the enemy unit takes D3+1 S2 AP- hits), Artificer Hulls(+1 Hull Point to a maximum of 5), Armoured Track Guards(4+ save against Immobilised results on the Vehicle Damage table), and Anti-Grenade Mesh(5+ save against any damage inflicted by any type of grenades, including Melta Bombs) from Imperial Armour for the same points costs as Stimms on Riptides?

That's 60 points worth of upgrades for Leman Russes to get them a 4+ save against Immobilised, 5+ against grenades, 4 Hull Points, 2D6 on Dangerous Terrain tests only failing on snake eyes...versus 35 flipping points to grant FNP to a Riptide; granting them a fourth way to potentially avoid losing Wounds(2+ save, 5+/3+ Nova'd Invuln, Cover saves, or FNP).

The Riptide, if it were held to the same standard as vehicles, would be a joke.

Strawman? I don't think so, I was trying to illustrate my point that the upgrades being super cheap are the problem, not the base riptide itself. The base riptide is decent, it threatens all targets but isn't an auto include by itself. When you toss in a pretty much free upgrade to the IA, and 35pts for a FNP for 6 wounds at T6, then you get a super tough model with decent damage output.

And lets be honest. You just compared a top tier codex to one of the worst codices around. I don't think it's fair to compare pre-decurion to post-decurion seeing as how both are on vastly different levels.

No its perfectly fair, it doesn't matter if it's a departure from previous codice designs it's what they have.

 Real News wrote:
I wish fire warriors were better so people would quit complaining about riptides. In a world with skyhammer and scatterbikes, I get sick of hearing about riptides.

The fact that other OP things exist doesn't make riptides less OP.

To the persons who insist on saying: "They're balanced relatively to this codex, not balanced relatively to that other codex," that's not really true. Yes, if you spam cheese from other codices, then it will make the riptide look less OP.

However, if you steer clear of the cheesy options of each codex, riptides will look very, very OP.

Teleporting grav centurions will eat riptides alive.

Devastator marines with lascannons will not.

A wraithknight will destroy a riptide in close combat, and it even stands a chance at getting into close combat in the first place.

Striking scorpions? Not so much.

Saying that the riptide isn't cheese because heldrakes, wraithknights, scatter bikes, grav, etc. exist is simply a non-sequitur. If you compare the riptide to the game as a whole and all possible unit selections, the riptide is patently OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

 Wolfblade wrote:


And lets be honest. You just compared a top tier codex to one of the worst codices around. I don't think it's fair to compare pre-decurion to post-decurion seeing as how both are on vastly different levels.

Top tier, which hasn't placed top 8 at any recent tournament, despite the cheese claimed. Of the top-tier, they are the line that separates, the bottom rung of the tier. I would like to see all armies be top tier, but sadly GW isn't all that interested. Seeing as the CSM, and AM still don't have substantial changes to their old codecies.

Having played tau since 4th, I have had a fair amount of experience both before and after their introduction.

Riptides have unfortunately fallen into the worst pit of despair...bad timing. When riptides came about, they were introduced right on the tail end of dreadknights, and though dreadknights are nearly as resilient (much more so in CC), riptides were the first of the LARGE models to be coming out and so everyone overreacted a bit comparitively to their actual strength.

In actuality, riptides were a fair costed unit with some decent offensive power and mobility, as well as being tough, but still had major weaknesses. Then when 7th dropped, and SM got their new book, notice at that point NOONE was talking about riptides being OP and for one very good reason...GRAV. Grav is a VERY hard counter to riptides, and aptly so. If a riptide doesnt have a 3++, then grav centurians have a VERY good chance to instantly remove one.

As well, riptides (like all tau) have always had one major weakness many overlook... close combat. They are not fearless, let me say that again, THEY ARE NOT FEARLESS. What this means is that even 1-2 wounds lost in close combat could cause them to flee and then be swept. In fact, this is often how I see them killed, one reasonably decent CC unit gets into them, deals a few unsaved wounds, riptides deal only 1 or none back, and then they get swept. In recent memory, khorne dog units have been a constant reminder of this, as they ARE fearless (well demon fearless), always have saves which can be improved, are multiwound to anything but an ion blast, and FAST. A riptide with stim, against a dog unit at the same cost, the dogs WILL get there and likely kill or trap the riptide forever

Of course, what set riptides over the line was the wing. If the wing simply gave them the +1 BS for targeting the same unit, and the reroll to nova it would still be an incredible formation that most would take. What tipped it to the point of cheese is the double shot. IGNORING THE MAIN GUN, even ripple firing SMS and then planting heels and double firing, 16 SMS shots per riptide in one phase is just...too too much. SMS was already probably Tau's MVP tool, and now...this...

SO yeah, that is my 2 cents, sorry about the brick of text, but remember, forcing riptide wing to interceptor hurts them (as no double shot for that gun) and get them in CC and you win!!

With T6 2+ 5+++ dealing a couple of wounds is not easy. Even worse is when you can make it 3++. Then you have assault moves. Not a great answer.

Same with Grav. Sure grav is a good counter. Look at all the grav my armies have. There is precisely none.

Look I've come into a Tau army in the last couple months, the Riptide can be best explained as the best piece of insurance you can have. The Riptide is an easy safe choice that almost always gets its points back.

There is no downside to taking it and it invalidates enemy unit types easily.

Dreadknights never had the impact riptides did, and were several years (and a full wdition) older. Dreadknights were mean CC units, but they lacked the long range punch of a Riptide (as well as easy and plentiful Ignores Cover support abilities on AP2 guns), and are significantly easier to kill (1 less wound, no FNP, no 3++, no Jet move to run away or hide).

Sure if you get stuck in with a Riptide you can potentially break it, but hurting it is a problem, as is catching it if it doesnt want to be caught.

Likewise, Grav isnt a magic stick that makes Riptides non-issues. Most armies dont have access to Grav at all, and even among those that do, you need an average of 41 BS4 Grav shots to kill a 3++ FNP'd Riptide, 35 with Grav Amps, which pretty much means the only reliable one shot method is larged kitted Gravcent units and most other Grav equipped units arent doing all *that* much to a Riptide. Even a full pod of CombiGrav sternguard are only likely to put 2 wounds on a kitted Riptide, maybe 3, for a 355pt one-shot investment.

 Jancoran wrote:
What people who don't play The Tau Empire usually just don't consider is how much assault has crept back into the game as a good tactic to embrace. So many things in the game IF ALLOWED TO DO THEIR THING UNMITIGATED will indeed plow your fields for you. Jetbikes? riptides? All of it if allowed will definitely eat you. not allowing it is what you have to figure out. Some do it through AV (to nerf the Scatterbikes0 on the way in and others do it through deployment shenanigans and so on.

Assault solves so much against Tau. the simplicity of a pincer move against them cant even BE overstated. tau simply do NOT want you behind them or around them and if you have a plan to get that close, you have a legit shot at them.

Riptides, which is our subject matter specifically, are no great shakes as combatants. 3 attacks STR 6 AP 2 on WS 2. ANYTHING that is at least decent in melee can handle that. the Riptide will likely have a 3+ invul and he might take an extra round to take down because of it, but then...you don't want to kill the Riptide on the charge anyways, you want him dead in the subsequent round of combat. Get your force weapon in there and do work or thunder hammers or whatevs. Alternatively, mire it in fearless swarms or some other throw away. There are a lot of answers. I won't lie and say that a Riptide wont shoot the bajeezus out of you on the way in. it will. But then, the guy wielding him paid points for his stuff too. It's not like its any different than you doing to to them.

So ultimately, a couple of good melee units in a force is pretty advisable these days for many forces that want to come to grips with the Tau Empire.

The Riptide Formation is kinda insane so that is a real problem. You essentially just get massively rewarded for taking three Riptides...only you can take 9. So... It's the Formation that truly gives that model its fangs. On their own I think they are just 200 points well spent. with the Formation? yeah. Really a different picture then.

Jancoran, are you serious? For most armies, assaulting is worse than shooting. Really, if I had to pick my way to handle a Riptide (which I've done), hands down it is Grav. Grav is easier, has none of the repercussions of assault (Overwatch, being hit back with AP 2), and can be done from a pretty good distance. Assault only works with either A) your own MC or B) you throw on Invisibility or hit him with a deathstar unit, preferably both.

 Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

I voted yes, because compared to the game as a whole, yes they're balanced. And you didn't provide the proper option ("Yes, but some of the upgrades being too cheap is what can break the riptide") They could be better balanced, but that applies to almost everything. I'd say a riptide is just as balanced as free transports. Or grav. Or scatbikes. Or anything the other top tier codices do. (inb4 comment about OP bullgak not being ok)

Besides, the majority agrees that the riptide is balanced, since that's the only thing that matters right?

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a expectation of a loadout, when I say Dreadknight do you think of a personal teleporter? TWC do you think deathstar? There are standards that a unit is held to, Riptide has them as well.

...which is why I said the upgrades are underpriced and need an adjustment (just like scatter lasers for windriders i.e. No one fears an unupgraded windrider)

Please tell me that you voted "no" in the poll. If you think that the upgrade options are OP or unfair or imbalanced, then your answer to my question, as asked in the OP, is "no: riptides in their current incarnation are not fair/balanced."

I voted yes, because compared to the game as a whole, yes they're balanced. And you didn't provide the proper option ("Yes, but some of the upgrades being too cheap is what can break the riptide") They could be better balanced, but that applies to almost everything. I'd say a riptide is just as balanced as free transports. Or grav. Or scatbikes. Or anything the other top tier codices do. (inb4 comment about OP bullgak not being ok)

Besides, the majority agrees that the riptide is balanced, since that's the only thing that matters right?

It doesn't matter if they are balanced really, tradito will always say anything non-marine is op, martel will say anything that can beat BA is op and the thread will dissolve into people yelling opinions at eachother lol.

There's a LOT that can beat BA that clearly isn't OP. Get your complaints straight. In fact, the fact that many units people consider "reasonable" still run BA off the table is my complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Having played tau since 4th, I have had a fair amount of experience both before and after their introduction.

Riptides have unfortunately fallen into the worst pit of despair...bad timing. When riptides came about, they were introduced right on the tail end of dreadknights, and though dreadknights are nearly as resilient (much more so in CC), riptides were the first of the LARGE models to be coming out and so everyone overreacted a bit comparitively to their actual strength.

In actuality, riptides were a fair costed unit with some decent offensive power and mobility, as well as being tough, but still had major weaknesses. Then when 7th dropped, and SM got their new book, notice at that point NOONE was talking about riptides being OP and for one very good reason...GRAV. Grav is a VERY hard counter to riptides, and aptly so. If a riptide doesnt have a 3++, then grav centurians have a VERY good chance to instantly remove one.

As well, riptides (like all tau) have always had one major weakness many overlook... close combat. They are not fearless, let me say that again, THEY ARE NOT FEARLESS. What this means is that even 1-2 wounds lost in close combat could cause them to flee and then be swept. In fact, this is often how I see them killed, one reasonably decent CC unit gets into them, deals a few unsaved wounds, riptides deal only 1 or none back, and then they get swept. In recent memory, khorne dog units have been a constant reminder of this, as they ARE fearless (well demon fearless), always have saves which can be improved, are multiwound to anything but an ion blast, and FAST. A riptide with stim, against a dog unit at the same cost, the dogs WILL get there and likely kill or trap the riptide forever

Of course, what set riptides over the line was the wing. If the wing simply gave them the +1 BS for targeting the same unit, and the reroll to nova it would still be an incredible formation that most would take. What tipped it to the point of cheese is the double shot. IGNORING THE MAIN GUN, even ripple firing SMS and then planting heels and double firing, 16 SMS shots per riptide in one phase is just...too too much. SMS was already probably Tau's MVP tool, and now...this...

SO yeah, that is my 2 cents, sorry about the brick of text, but remember, forcing riptide wing to interceptor hurts them (as no double shot for that gun) and get them in CC and you win!!

What you posted it true in theory, but almost impossible to put into practice. Force weapons? They get shot off table first. Anything that remotely threatens the Riptide? Shot of the table like a chump.

Riptides beat almost all my CC units in CC. The perceived weakness of the riptide in CC is just that. A perception. It's a better CC unit for the points than anything in my assault-oriented marine book.