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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Davor wrote:

AtomAnt wrote:
Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.

Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.

Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.

I think it's a decent business model.

A local store charges a few bucks to use a table (less than Ant suggested) and I think it's fair. Sure you can play at home, but you're unlikely to have ONE table at home that is as large and looks as nice as any of the dozen or so the store has to choose from and your home is unlikely large enough to support an event with 5-10+ games running simultaneously.

It's probably going to put off little kids, but for most adults the cost of using a table is similar to a large coffee.

They also sell snacks, I don't know what the health and safety regulations are on food but I imagine if it's all prepackaged stuff it can't be too bad.

They do also have booze, but I believe it's limited to private events.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Davor wrote:

AtomAnt wrote:
Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.

Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.

Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.

Really really depends where you are. Suburban Virginia, yeah I'd think twice about paying for a table.

Manhattan? London? Hong Kong? You're probably living in a glorified closet or 2 hours outside the city. Totally fair to charge for space.

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

AtomAnt wrote:
Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.

Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.

Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.

At home you might not have as good table and terrain though...Or ANY board.

Good luck fitting 6'x4' board at my home. No free space big enough for that. And my terrain isn't particularly stellar looking.

I would rather pay for actual usage than pay tax for supporting FLGS which might or might not actually offer something worth visiting. If it's just miniatures why would I pay more than elsewhere? I get same service from both stores.

Some great points here, but again I am going by my experience here. I live in a city of 90 000 population. We had like 3 game stores in the early 2000s but they closed down. So for over 10 years I had to drive 1/2 one way to buy GW or any mini products. Now a gaming cafe I guess is the best way to call it, open up. In the beginning he didn't sell any GW product but it was a place for Nerds and Geeks to hang out or go to to do nerdy/geeky things like play Magic, mini games or even board games so I still had to do all that driving to get the product I wanted. Now he sells GW products but will not give a discount sadly, but the good thing is, that has opened up gaming opportunity and we have discovered that there is about 10 or so people in the population of 90 000 who play 40K. So now it's nice to actually be able to have some game now. I have the mind set, if when ever possible, first support the local community I live in. Second I believe, buy where I play in. Third I do have to think about myself and for #1 and #2 it has to be worth it for me to do so. So if I have to pay full price for GW product, then I believe I should be able to play for free and not pay to pay to play. If I have to pay to play, I may as well drive 1/2 hour away and get free GW products once I save enough "store points" or drive 1 hour away and pay US listed prices here in Canada.

So if he started charging to play as well as paying full price for GW products I would feel that I don't have to buy from him anymore since it's not worth it for me. Why should I support the local community and buy where I play when they won't give out discounts and just keeps asking for more and more money? The way I see it, either give discounts and charge to play, or charge full price but don't charge to play. After all if I am paying to play, I have fulfilled my bargin by giving him money to play so I don't owe him anything now by purchasing what he sells. But since he doesn't charge to play, I feel it's only "right" to buy from him so he can stay in business. After all you are making more money by charging full price of GW product than you would from a bottle of water or coffee or what not.

As for playing on spectacular terrain. We don't have that. We have a good selection of terrain but nothing great that it's worth paying for.

Davor wrote:
So if he started charging to play as well as paying full price for GW products I would feel that I don't have to buy from him anymore since it's not worth it for me.

But that's kind of the point. Separate the "gaming" business from the "selling models" business.

One thing that has been suggested in previous threads is to charge for tables but also have tokens or similar that you get for buying models that can be redeemed on the tables. So it might cost $5 to use a table, or if you buy a $50 kit you get 10 tokens which are worth $1 for playing on the gaming tables.

One local hobby store has "points", you get roughly 1 point per $1 you spend and you can redeem them on future purchases at a rate of 10 points = $1. You could do something similar in a gaming store, but instead of 10 points = $1, make it 10 points = $1 on future purchases or $2 for use on the tables.

These are all possible solutions. Personally I don't feel guilty at all not buying stock from the store if I'm paying $5 to use a table and that's the way I like it.

People like me simply don't buy miniatures frequently anymore so I don't want to have to feel I MUST buy models to be allowed to use the tables.

And $5 for using a table is feth all as far as I'm concerned, if I go to a pool hall I'll often spend $10-20 if I'm using a crappy table or more if I'm using a good table in addition to the booze I'm buying.

As for playing on spectacular terrain. We don't have that. We have a good selection of terrain but nothing great that it's worth paying for.

Well if you're going to charge for tables you have to put the effort in to making good terrain.

On the flip side, if you're NOT charging for tables there's very little motivation to put the effort in to make good terrain

Davor wrote:
Some great points here, but again I am going by my experience here. I live in a city of 90 000 population. We had like 3 game stores in the early 2000s but they closed down. So for over 10 years I had to drive 1/2 one way to buy GW or any mini products.

Try double that and you know what it's for me. And then I go there and am told "sorry, don't have it. We'll order it. Takes week to come".

Why should I PAY for this? I'm basically paying more for worse service. Anybody with business sense knows that's not going to fly well with customers.

I still say adult night should be a thing. Like, late Friday night magic. Like, from ten too two, no one under 21 be allowed. Even with no drinking, not being near teens is a great thing.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I still say adult night should be a thing. Like, late Friday night magic. Like, from ten too two, no one under 21 be allowed. Even with no drinking, not being near teens is a great thing.

There's actually not a huge many teens in my area anymore, they're mostly mid to late 20's and early 30's.

It'd be a bit of a douche move to ban the minority of teenagers, and could get awkward if a lot of your customers are around 21 anyway.




It only really makes sense if you're offering booze and it'd create legal issues (in which case it'd be 18 in most sane countries that allow people to drink before 21 ).

Since no one has posted it yet that I have seen - here is this:

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.co.uk/

A very interesting blog from a long-time, successful FLGS. AND they just so happen to be doing a series of posts called "Starting a new gaming store."

Seems like a good place to start.

I haven't read through the whole thread, but if you haven't yet come across this, I'd highly recommend reading Gary Ray's blog about his game store in Concord, California.

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/

He provides a tremendous amount of insight and helpful information about running a game store. Even though it's USA-based, it's probably well worth the time for you to go back and read his past posts!

And I haven't seen anyone yet answer your question on wholesale vs. retail pricing for games (again, haven't read the whole thread...!). Here in the US, a game store can expect to pay 50-55% of the MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price), i.e., so a game you sell for $100 will probably cost you $50 to $55 to buy it. That varies some, but Games Workshop, for example, is fairly consistently 55% of MSRP for retailers.

Good luck!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
haha! And I see that the guy RIGHT ABOVE ME posts the same blog.

Serves me right for not reading the whole thing.

Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!

The UK and US though are so very different in almost every way that a guide for the US will be of mixed benefit for the UK.

Sell beer to Minors?

In the US you're not allowed to sell beer to some adults never mind kids!

rich1231 wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!

The UK and US though are so very different in almost every way that a guide for the US will be of mixed benefit for the UK.

While that's true, the general principles are worth taking on board.

I feel the op needs to try and find out what did the store before him did wrong. Was it a issue with sales or cash flow is something he needs to find out!

The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.

Generally it's not a great Bussniess Plan, since you are splinting your resources between being a pup and a gaming store. Means you will not be able to do either well, or have one half get over shadowed by the other. Not to mention the question of how you would even set up the lay out of the store to accomodate both Gameing store product, the Food/drink, and seating/play space.

This is why there are more "clubs" down under AREN'T located in stores than there are clubs that are.

Two clubs I play at allow the adults to have booze whilst playing with mandollies. We can't supply the minors with it (buy it for them OR give it to them) but responsible drinking and gaming is a thing. We aren't beholden to a store for gaming space - but we still support them and use them for stuff now and then (we just don't do most of our gaming there).

Most stores can't do it because of licensing restrictions. You need one kind of permit to sell alcohol (eg - the UK "off license" or our "bottle shops") and a separate one if you wish to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Neither is cheap and both require background checks.

It's also just a waste of time, space, and resources. Stock soft drinks, water, gaming snacks, and be done with it. You want diversity in product (card games! board games! miniatures! collectibles! toys! comics! books! rpgs! etc), Not food and drink.

 chromedog wrote:
This is why there are more "clubs" down under AREN'T located in stores than there are clubs that are.

Two clubs I play at allow the adults to have booze whilst playing with mandollies. We can't supply the minors with it (buy it for them OR give it to them) but responsible drinking and gaming is a thing. We aren't beholden to a store for gaming space - but we still support them and use them for stuff now and then (we just don't do most of our gaming there).

Honestly I don't really want to play with people who are drinking unless they're my close friends (rather than random club people I barely know) or there's very strict and clearly understood rules regarding "stay the feth away from my models".

Most stores can't do it because of licensing restrictions. You need one kind of permit to sell alcohol (eg - the UK "off license" or our "bottle shops") and a separate one if you wish to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Neither is cheap and both require background checks.

My understanding was that getting a BYO license in Australia wasn't terribly difficult or expensive and would allow people to bring booze for club events if they wanted. The license required to actually sell booze I think costs enough that you'd want to be selling at least a handful of drinks each night to make it worth while, as long as you aren't open late (I think 11pm?) and don't have gambling I don't think the cost of a license is too insane. Though if you do catch an infraction the non-compliance fees go through the roof very quickly (selling to an underage person, selling to an already drunk person or allowing drunken and disorderly behaviour). So continuing to sell booze after receiving an infraction is costly to the point where you have to be selling a lot to make it worth while.

I have a feeling most stores are probably like me and simply don't want to go down that road at all. Too much hassle, too much risk (if a drunk person walks in off the street and you serve them it can result in a very costly infraction, and while 99% of people might only ever get tipsy dealing with the 1% who wants to get black out drunk can cause real problems). Add to that even tipsy people are terrible for knocking things over, bumping in to stuff, making stuff grotty and so on.

It is also off putting for customers who don't drink and don't like hanging around people who are drinking or don't like their kids hanging around people who are drinking. Wargaming isn't really a business where you can afford to be exclusionary.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Wargaming isn't really a business where you can afford to be exclusionary.

ABSOLUTELY.

Make your shop a safe space for all. No swearing, no drinking, none of that stuff. It encourages families, and children, and children means pester power, present buying, and sales.

Also makes things easier for you, too! No drunks to deal with.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.

Counter-argument: the largest (and very successful) game store in my area sells beer and people love it. They've gone for the high-end beer market rather than the cheap "get drunk asap" kind so that's probably a factor, but there seem to be a lot of people interested in having a beer while they play their games.

Peregrine, what part of the US are you in? There seems to be more of a beer culture where you are than in other places. Over here, I would expect coffee to be the more popular choice among gamers.

 StygianBeach wrote:

Wow... it must me hard for a small business to handle the legal side of things in the USA?

Our Town Fests over here would probably be all shut down if our legal system had such a serious attitude towards alcohol.

And you've just explained the state of the US economy.

Political commentary aside, there is a small but growing number of "gaming pubs" in the US. The difference is that they are structured as pubs that organize and offer gaming as an attraction, not as game stores that serve food and alcohol. Food service and liquor laws are complex in the US, and the business has to be built around them for legal and insurance reasons. You become subject to health inspections, certifying servers, a local vote for a liquor license, etc. Then you have to do enough business to cover the overhead of the costs involved...which serving a few beers on Friday Night Magic and 40K night isn't going to do by itself. Now you're talking a larger business operation, which is beyond the typical 1-2 man staff of an FLGS.

Not that it would be impossible (there are still a lot of hole-in-the-wall bars and pubs in the US), but combining a pub business with the retail operations of a game shop...and having the floor space and clientele to do both, would be very challenging.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.

Counter-argument: the largest (and very successful) game store in my area sells beer and people love it. They've gone for the high-end beer market rather than the cheap "get drunk asap" kind so that's probably a factor, but there seem to be a lot of people interested in having a beer while they play their games.

How do they get it to sink with the gaming crowd? I want to hear how to make it work, because quite frankly it doesn't anywhere else, aside from private residence clubs. Going to have to honestly be the particular crowd, I have not seen this go well in several iterations, and I will go on and say that you are the exception if it does in fact work for your area.

Local brews, and high end ones might be something that I have not factored, ( Not for getting drunk, just a local community flavor.) On the whole, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more about it.

IDK, I just dislike it when im in the middle of a game and little timmy has to leave. I just feel adult only nights would be a great thing.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
IDK, I just dislike it when im in the middle of a game and little timmy has to leave. I just feel adult only nights would be a great thing.

I don't see how restricting it to big timmys solves that. Adults are more likely to have pressing emergencies come up out of nowhere than kids. Kids generally know when they're going to be picked up, and can schedule games around that. Adults might be in the middle of a game and suddenly significant other requires them home for emergency/work calls and they need to leave/etc.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Peregrine, what part of the US are you in? There seems to be more of a beer culture where you are than in other places. Over here, I would expect coffee to be the more popular choice among gamers.

The store is in Durham, NC. And there's definitely a "good beer" culture around here, at least with the white middle-class 20-30ish demographic that makes up the majority of gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grot 6 wrote:
How do they get it to sink with the gaming crowd? I want to hear how to make it work, because quite frankly it doesn't anywhere else, aside from private residence clubs. Going to have to honestly be the particular crowd, I have not seen this go well in several iterations, and I will go on and say that you are the exception if it does in fact work for your area.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. They didn't do anything to make it work, they just have beer taps at the snack counter along with all the usual stuff. People who want to have a beer with their game buy a beer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
I don't see how restricting it to big timmys solves that. Adults are more likely to have pressing emergencies come up out of nowhere than kids. Kids generally know when they're going to be picked up, and can schedule games around that. Adults might be in the middle of a game and suddenly significant other requires them home for emergency/work calls and they need to leave/etc.

On the other hand adults have control over their own schedules. If a kid's parents say it's time to leave for dinner at 5pm then the kid is leaving at 5pm even if it's the last turn of the game and things are really interesting. An adult in the same position can say "ok, dinner's going to be a bit late" and finish the game. And adults are much less likely to be told they aren't allowed to stay out until 10-11pm, if you're talking about playing at a local independent store instead of GW's awful stores.

Yeah, I have had it happen several times. A kid plays a game with me, about turn two he leaves cause his mommy says its time. So I am left High and Dry after an hour of the only night I can play. So yeah, that sucks honestly.

 Peregrine wrote:
On the other hand adults have control over their own schedules. If a kid's parents say it's time to leave for dinner at 5pm then the kid is leaving at 5pm even if it's the last turn of the game and things are really interesting. An adult in the same position can say "ok, dinner's going to be a bit late" and finish the game. And adults are much less likely to be told they aren't allowed to stay out until 10-11pm, if you're talking about playing at a local independent store instead of GW's awful stores.

We seem to game with different types of adults. Everyone I game with has a significant other and/or family. Telling the wife you'll be a bit late for dinner unexpectedly, sure. Saying you'll not be home until midnight because your playing a game sorry, you have to deal with the kids and their dinner and cleaning up would result in a swifter kick in the ass and a teenager telling their parents they want to stay an extra half an hour, and a much more miserable next few days.

 -Loki- wrote:
We seem to game with different types of adults. Everyone I game with has a significant other and/or family. Telling the wife you'll be a bit late for dinner unexpectedly, sure. Saying you'll not be home until midnight because your playing a game sorry, you have to deal with the kids and their dinner and cleaning up would result in a swifter kick in the ass and a teenager telling their parents they want to stay an extra half an hour, and a much more miserable next few days.

Most people I game with have significant others and/or family, and have no problem staying out late on game nights. Presumably the ones with family balance it out by taking the kids/cleaning/etc on some other night so their significant other can have some time for their own hobbies. Or they just have no kids, or kids that are old enough to take care of their own stuff for a night if their parents aren't around.

I just don't think you want to be exclusionary at all. If an individual gamer doesn't want to play against an opponent of a specific age bracket then they don't have to, it makes little sense trying to cull your customers to accommodate them.