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BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Warlord Traits are Command Abilities in AoS

Not quite there, actually. AoS equivalent of Warlord traits are Command traits, which are ALWAYS a one per army deal and named characters are barred from. Command abilities can be used multiple instances per turn on certain conditions and named characters have them.

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Aside from points, that's what every AoS Warscroll is.

The downside is that the options may end up being very limited to what's in the box...

Yea I meant with the same amount of choice as you do now, which is a boatload. Including things that don't have models.
And on that topic, how does AoS handle relics?

Not entirely. Many current codex options include things which you would not find in the box, such as Heavy weapon Teams in an Infantry Squad or Lascannons in a Tactical Squad.

Lord Kragan wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Warlord Traits are Command Abilities in AoS

Not quite there, actually. AoS equivalent of Warlord traits are Command traits, which are ALWAYS a one per army deal and named characters are barred from. Command abilities can be used multiple instances per turn on certain conditions and named characters have them.

somehow managed to confuse them and stand corrected

Anyway, with no Codexes and, initial, free rules for all models it's going to be a good start. What I'm really interested in seeing is what comes after. In AoS we had Scenario books which had some really fun games that mixed with the storyline. They also had Warscrolls for various models, usually ones that were key to what was going on in the book. Then we got faction specific books (Death, Order, Chaos, Destruction). This is what I do not want to see. What I would like to see would be books for specific forces, like current codexes, but they can "slim down" the line by combining Imperium into one book as well as Chaos and Eldar.

nordsturmking wrote:
From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

And in one place. I swear the tyranid rules and formations are over so many books I wouldn't be surprised if I opened up the infintryman's uplifting primer and found a tyranid formation.

I am just happy GW can now acknowledge "here is a portion of the game that is intended for competitive play".
So an attempt at balance is done and the expectation of bringing your best is really that.
Scenario games and "bring everything" just like competitive have their place, it is just nice to be able to choose a preference and hopefully have everyone on the same page.

 Jaxler wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

And in one place. I swear the tyranid rules and formations are over so many books I wouldn't be surprised if I opened up the infintryman's uplifting primer and found a tyranid formation.

Yep exactly. and those don’t even have print versions. I can't wait to see what we are getting

BomBomHotdog wrote:Anyway, with no Codexes and, initial, free rules for all models it's going to be a good start. What I'm really interested in seeing is what comes after. In AoS we had Scenario books which had some really fun games that mixed with the storyline. They also had Warscrolls for various models, usually ones that were key to what was going on in the book. Then we got faction specific books (Death, Order, Chaos, Destruction). This is what I do not want to see. What I would like to see would be books for specific forces, like current codexes, but they can "slim down" the line by combining Imperium into one book as well as Chaos and Eldar.

Another way to slim them down is to to not have the datasheets in them. The datsheets would now be found like the Sigmar Warscrolls. They can be printable for just what you want to use rather than a huge book you won't use most of.

The books would have the formations and detachment configurations along with the basic history of faction's armies. This allows them to not need to be updated so much, as the datasheets can be updated on a regular basis.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

You opened yourself up to it by using deliberately inflammatory language. I know this is the internet and 'yur sh*t lol, no yur sh*t lol, wow so mature calling someone sh*t lol' is a tried and true debate tactic but it doesn't automatically absolve you of wrongdoing.'

ERJAK wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

You opened yourself up to it by using deliberately inflammatory language. I know this is the internet and 'yur sh*t lol, no yur sh*t lol, wow so mature calling someone sh*t lol' is a tried and true debate tactic but it doesn't automatically absolve you of wrongdoing.'

Im with Erjack on this

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

 Lorek wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

Of course then again, you got those from 30k doing that to 40k and yet seems brushed under the rug.

ERJAK wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
To me The Gathering Storm feels a bit like End Times. But thanks to the FAQ i am still optimistic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

If you want to have a good Warhammer Fantasy experience take a look at Warhammer CE. I really like it. I have played a few AoS games and decided it is not for me. The lack of WS, BS, S and T and the almost non existens of tactic except "do i push this unit in the big pile of CC or not" All this just doesn't appeal to me.

See if you just stopped at 'it's not for me' that would be fine, not everygame appeals to every player, but then you add on the tactics thing and ruin it.

Warhammer Fantasy was LITERALLY 'push big blocks of units in a pile of CC or not' except the answer was always 'not until turn 4 when my magic has obliterated 3/4ths of his army while our big tough melee units stare at each other longingly'. People got 'boredom' and 'tactics' confused a lot in that game.

Not seeing tactics in sigmar just means you suck at sigmar and if you go to even small local events and try that you'll get tabled every game even against narrative armies.

Just as not seeing tactics in Warhammer Fantasy often meant you didn't play, sucked at it or were new. Yeah magic and shooting could be a big deal but Chaff units were a big deal. Positioning was a big deal. Sure if you see a bunch of people play it might be different but seeing tournament play vs normal play was huge. I mean do you guys know about railroading an abomination in Fantasy? An abomination has random movement and you can position a unit (flyers or another fast unit) to its side and just force it to keep going straight every turn and do nothing. I had an enemy do that to me in a tournament with harpies. It was a unit that cost maybe 50 pts making an under-costed almost 250 pts unit do nothing for a whole game and then get shot to death. Same thing worked with frenzy being a double edged sword or the mass of morale checks. In Fantasy morale actually mattered whereas in 40k it's more and more useless. I mean a person could even force an enemy unit to retreat and block their enemy's own charging unit the very next turn. I did this before and the feeling of accomplishment made me feel proud. There's also stuff like forcing 'stupid' (the rule was 'stupidity') units like trolls to just charge a unit, run away from the trolls and then force the trolls out of position so that it eats grass all day because it was only leadership 5 on its own outside of a general's leadership bubble.

---------

We'd be going a bit off topic but i always have to ask where all the named special characters are in AoS. I mean i know it has time to add to it but we had queek, thanquol and boneripper, lord skrolk, throt, ikit claw, deathmaster snitch (or however it was spelled) and many more just for skaven. I just don't know how many character you have. Do sigmarines even have any characters?

Of course AoS has special characters. What kind of a stupid question is that?

How does any of this AoS talk relate to the topic exactly?

 Don Savik wrote:
Of course AoS has special characters. What kind of a stupid question is that?

How does any of this AoS talk relate to the topic exactly?

Think he is more asking are the Old World heros still in AoS or did they die in a fire..

But 40k related not overly

I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

Also don't insult as i decided to play nice with you AoS players. I could be a jerk instead as you are being to us.

-------

As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

As far as tactics in Warhammer Fantasy goes... holding back a brutal melee unit until after you allowed your other (ranged/magical) troops to weaken the opponent's troops is a tactic. Often a sound one. In modern warfare, artillery is also used in such a manner. The same as using cannon fodder units to lure the enemy into a trap. or to prevent your opponent from hitting one of your more crucial units or characters.
In WH40K the same can be said about charging with a 'meh' unit to soak up overwatch, and then hitting hard with a dedicated close combat unit. Sound tactics.

Which brings me to a fluff sacrifice... (Spoilered for those who haven't read Fall of Cadia and still want to...



Making this example the tie-in towards the topic. I wonder if GW will continue support of such named characters. Sure, they will make the rules available for all models currently in their line, but will any new army lists or army books after the initial launch still mention unique characters who are, by now, killed in ongoing publications which 'move the story forward'? Just because the model is still available? Or will they cull the model line a bit more, maybe making room for a new generation of heroes? (Such as the likes of Greyfax, Cawl, Yvraine, the Yncarne, etc.)

I personally hope that Named Characters are pushed away from Matched play. Personally, I feel like making your own character out of the HQ choices was more fun, since that would make that character you. It will be uniquely you since even if someone takes the same items, you can still model yours different. It gets a little ridiculous when they're so useful that games would appear as if the greatest and most important characters in the setting were teleporting to every battle that even remotely involved them.

It surprises me how the fact GW is a business and therefore makes money surprises people year after year.

"Oh my god they will make new books and miniatures instead of updating everything for free so they can't go on as a business. So evil. I swear they would be just fine selling paints."

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

Also don't insult as i decided to play nice with you AoS players. I could be a jerk instead as you are being to us.

-------

As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

Yeah because AoS players started it alright.

But to put it simply there's actually very few Special Characters being released. If a faction gets one it tends to be just one. Stormcast have The Celestant-Prime, Iron Jawz have Gordrakk, the Fist of Gork, Everchosen has Archaon and those are the ones that have come from newer books (Archaon coming with his new mount beast). There's also that new Overlord character with the top hat.

As for 40k we seem to have some idea that some will be changed like the Decapitator becoming the new Mandrake King and all that.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

They are there, but they aren't required to be unique. Some did lose their names and became generic, but it's not very common.

When it first launched a few of them had some odd rules, like Settra had a rule that if you knelt with him as your General, you lost the game because Settra does not kneel to anyone.

And then there was the Empire General where you gained bonuses for pretending to ride a horse, and even more if you talked to the horse.

Goofy stuffy, but its no longer there. I guess people complained because toy soldier is Seeruz Biznez.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

Considering how much people expect 40K to be Sigmaraized, it is valid to know what they have done as that may affect whatever they call 8th Edition.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
As far as tactics in Warhammer Fantasy goes... holding back a brutal melee unit until after you allowed your other (ranged/magical) troops to weaken the opponent's troops is a tactic. Often a sound one. In modern warfare, artillery is also used in such a manner. The same as using cannon fodder units to lure the enemy into a trap. or to prevent your opponent from hitting one of your more crucial units or characters.
In WH40K the same can be said about charging with a 'meh' unit to soak up overwatch, and then hitting hard with a dedicated close combat unit. Sound tactics.

Which brings me to a fluff sacrifice... (Spoilered for those who haven't read Fall of Cadia and still want to...

Spoiler:

Creed escaped Cadia due to Kell intervening, and dying, if I read that correctly.

Making this example the tie-in towards the topic. I wonder if GW will continue support of such named characters. Sure, they will make the rules available for all models currently in their line, but will any new army lists or army books after the initial launch still mention unique characters who are, by now, killed in ongoing publications which 'move the story forward'? Just because the model is still available? Or will they cull the model line a bit more, maybe making room for a new generation of heroes? (Such as the likes of Greyfax, Cawl, Yvraine, the Yncarne, etc.)

Tycho has been dead for decades. He still has rules.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:


Tycho has been dead for decades. He still has rules.

Good point. But of course, he also still has a codex entry and a (fairly outdated) model. And the current codices will be out with the trash.
Another question, then, could be whether or nor they would keep him as a named character, as opposed to a more generic one?

We'd be going a bit off topic but i always have to ask where all the named special characters are in AoS. I mean i know it has time to add to it but we had queek, thanquol and boneripper, lord skrolk, throt, ikit claw, deathmaster snitch (or however it was spelled) and many more just for skaven. I just don't know how many character you have. Do sigmarines even have any characters?

Quite a few of the named WFB special characters have resurfaced in AOS.

Some are unchanged - Nagash,
Mostly unchanged - Neferta, Mannfred, Arkhan,
Some have become true Gods - Alarielle, and apparently Malkeith and his mother as one.

Some are implied to have become Stormcast.

Most of the Chaos Demons are back as they are effectively eternal as long as they have the favour of their patron god.

I didn't buy any new codices after they re-released 7th. This incidentally means that I didn't buy the new Deathwatch OR Traitor Legions books - for my two main forces.

Months later they are to become invalidated and I've saved myself ... let's see.... £20 Traitor Legions +£25 Orks + £35 Space Marines + £25 Deathwatch + £30 Dark Eldar


oh and the 7.1 £30 mini rule book


I've saved £135 worth of books.... just as planned. I think, from my perspective and situation at least, this move towards free rules and cheaper / pick and choose style AoS App style unit information is only a good thing. I'd actually dust off my models again if it's sensible

All codexes gone can be good (IMHO it doesn't make any sense spending a lot of money in books that become obsolete after 4 years) but only if all the rules become free. Not only the basic ones, but all of them.

Otherwise there will always be a series of super expensive battletomes filled with overpowered rules and a bunch of crappy stats available for free.

Just make hordes armies like tyranids, AM or orks worthy and GW can earn even more money than they could do by selling books.

I never bought the books, GW keep changing them every 4 years. I prefer pdf

 Lorek wrote:


This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

Sure, but are they totally invested in 7th edition as it is? There's nothing about it they wish were different, especially if they go to events or tournaments? That's kind of what I was getting at, even if I made a poor choice of words. A lot of people regularly play 40k without engaging in cheesemongering antics, but the fact remains that those people usually get stomped when they set foot on the tournament floor or play a game in a local meta that's a little too "enthusiastic". And when that happens to someone who is just trying to have fun and be a good member of the community, I doubt it really makes them excited about the game.

GW just stated in their 8th QA stream that if you've bought old codices within 4 (or was it 8) weeks you can get some sort of refund by contacting them apparently.

Super awesome stuff incoming, including new Faction(s).

8 week window., voucher to the current cost of the bought codex.

Well I am not parting with my limited edition IA:13 any time soon even though FW have stated it will be invalid come 8th.

To me it is a work of art and cracking good read as well.

The prospect of making the core rules free and releasing a Generals Handbook set up with factionwide low cost books actually has me rather pleased and genuinely excited for a GW release for quite some time.

Bit miffed I bought Traitor Legions but hey, you pay your money and takes your chances.