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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Almost certainly. I really do not understand what they were thinking with that launch. An empty sandbox game with no coherency and new universe with almost as little coherency was not a winning recipe.

Like you said, they really seemed to have learned from that lesson and this one has had a lot more effort put into it. Now let's just hope it's going to pay off.

If there would be a moment to measure Rountree's skills as the new CEO, I would say this would be the make or break moment. If 8th edition is good, he will probably go down in history as the CEO who saved 40k. If not, then "Kirby 2.0" would be a rather appropriate moniker.

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Open Play is for:

New players learning the game.
New or old players who are starting an army but don't have enough models to field a credible force yet.
Multi-player battles- the General's Handbook has several different formats for multiplayer games.
Players who don't care about all the overhead of points systems or forging a narrative (they exist), or who want to make wacky house scenarios.
Testing a new unit or practicing rules interactions.

It's different from Unbound because Unbound still carried the expectations of "matched" play- it was like bringing a dodgeball to a baseball game. Open Play is its own thing; whether it's a thing for you or your group is another story.

Another way to look at it is that it's the "just the rules" game format. All the others have some amount of game setup overhead; they've just made that part modular rather than integral.

Thanks. I'll reserve judgement until we have it in hands, but I still don't see the point in making this a format. It's basically a do-whatever-you-want sandbox, how different can that possibly be from literally doing whatever you want.
I suppose we'll find out soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

I don't play age of sigmar, nor do I care about it, but if I'm not mistaken AoS has similar mechanics.
It depends on how far they're willing to AoS this, but I could see csm and daemons mixing smoothly again. I'd even take the removal of KDK as a good sign for that.
All KDK really added was the blood tithes system, which was awesome, but apart from blood thirster variations there wasn't a single new unit.
If they rework that into a psychic phase equivalent for khorne units, we get everything KDK had, but with WE.

Super-glad the current codices are being put down. Shows that they have the awareness that any new edition they try to make with the old codices hanging around their necks is going to be like trying to build on sand, which gives me hope for the future. And I say this while owning 6 codices plus all related supplements for them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Personally I think the moment any excuse Kirby had to prop up his reputation went down the drain the moment AoS started production (not just release, but at conception). That trainwreck singlehandedly eclipsed all of Kirby's other questionable tactics, like his previous annual price hikes, his complete disregard for tournament play, how new units were buffed solely to sell kits, etc.

Kirby, at the very least, was working with the less popular of the two franchises, and the one that was arguably going down the toilet already. Rountree is basically wagering the future of GW on this one (more or less, while I doubt the failure of 8th will destroy GW overnight, it might signal a slow downfall if it does fail) so if this does get cocked up to high heaven, it would pretty much erase all of the good will he's built up for me so far.

Especially since much (not all, but much of it) of the things that generated said good will is being erased with this edition too, it just puts more emphasis for this to not fail. However Rountree is not going into it blind and it's clear he and his team is taking every effort to make sure this succeeds. Let's just hope Tzeentch ain't double dipping into our chips now.

Ravingbantha wrote:
GW has said they plan to reward 'themed' armies, that means more specialized formations with rules that create 'unbalance'.

No offense, but what makes you think you're right about that? Nobody knows at this point.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

Another reason i collect and play only ba and iks.

For me this makes me feel 0% better. When AoS came out the rules were joke rules, the world was destroyed, the lore was destroyed, it was a slap to Oldhammer players and the big gift was 40k players got a secondary game to which most of them never even play at my store. Blood bowl is probably more popular than AoS at the local GW. That's not a good thing.

It sounds exactly like AoS which is a horrible thing. I played Fantasy and i know nothing they said sounds any different than the release of AoS.

 Roknar wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Open Play is for:

New players learning the game.
New or old players who are starting an army but don't have enough models to field a credible force yet.
Multi-player battles- the General's Handbook has several different formats for multiplayer games.
Players who don't care about all the overhead of points systems or forging a narrative (they exist), or who want to make wacky house scenarios.
Testing a new unit or practicing rules interactions.

It's different from Unbound because Unbound still carried the expectations of "matched" play- it was like bringing a dodgeball to a baseball game. Open Play is its own thing; whether it's a thing for you or your group is another story.

Another way to look at it is that it's the "just the rules" game format. All the others have some amount of game setup overhead; they've just made that part modular rather than integral.

Thanks. I'll reserve judgement until we have it in hands, but I still don't see the point in making this a format. It's basically a do-whatever-you-want sandbox, how different can that possibly be from literally doing whatever you want.
I suppose we'll find out soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

I don't play age of sigmar, nor do I care about it, but if I'm not mistaken AoS has similar mechanics.
It depends on how far they're willing to AoS this, but I could see csm and daemons mixing smoothly again. I'd even take the removal of KDK as a good sign for that.
All KDK really added was the blood tithes system, which was awesome, but apart from blood thirster variations there wasn't a single new unit.
If they rework that into a psychic phase equivalent for khorne units, we get everything KDK had, but with WE.

I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

A few things:
I'm glad they are getting rid of codices, after all, this is the time of year you would have to buy a whole new set of all the books, this'll make it far cheaper.
Not sure what they'll do in its place, but I'm hopeful.

The three new game modes are basically an official recognition of what already there, and not anything new. But the first one does slightly worry me (though if it does do what I think, then no one will play it), and that is that when they say bring the models you want, do they mean there won't be a set point value? The other two are already there and fine.

I do believe a new fresh redoing of everything would be quite nice, as long as they follow the core parts of 40k. First and foremost the Grimdark. Second the lack of clearly defined good guys. Third the extreme amount of fluff. Finally, the over the top massive battles, while remains pretty grounded (I.E. the Guard). (Not done in any particular order)

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

So true...

Unfortunatly in my opinion low cost would either imply pdf or booklets

Also the point with codices bieng invalided isn't in the mere fact (quite logical speaking of which) because it's entirely normal when jumping onto another edition. On the other hand, the number of books and the quite little time they remained valid makes them an atrocious waste. Just think about new armies as Skitarii for example: the codex lasted a few month then!

Skitarii was published in at least early 2016/late 2015. It "lasted" more than a few months; same with Cult Mechanicus.

In any regards, look at the "Grand Alliance" books for AoS.

They're low cost books(I think Grand Alliance: Order, which is the size of the bigger codices for 40k, was something like $35 and contains basically everything High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Empire, Dwarf, Lizardmen, Sylvaneth and Stormcast Eternal that was out at the time) that were designed to be "update" the previously existing armies and also bring some of the new armies that had their rules scattered in various campaign books into one place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

Another reason i collect and play only ba and iks.

For me this makes me feel 0% better. When AoS came out the rules were joke rules, the world was destroyed, the lore was destroyed, it was a slap to Oldhammer players and the big gift was 40k players got a secondary game to which most of them never even play at my store. Blood bowl is probably more popular than AoS at the local GW. That's not a good thing.

It sounds exactly like AoS which is a horrible thing. I played Fantasy and i know nothing they said sounds any different than the release of AoS.

Boohoo, they had silly rules that effectively did nothing.

Rules like "If you can't see the sunlight or are playing at night", some of the Vampire Counts characters got better or if you pretended to ride on a horse or whatever certain Empire guys got to reroll 1s or crap like that.

I don't understand why people got so in a tizzy about that. If you didn't want the bonuses, you didn't have to do it. If you wanted the bonus that benefited you in game--you got to look like a schmuck.

 Kanluwen wrote:



Rules like "If you can't see the sunlight or are playing at night", some of the Vampire Counts characters got better or if you pretended to ride on a horse or whatever certain Empire guys got to reroll 1s or crap like that.

I don't understand why people got so in a tizzy about that. If you didn't want the bonuses, you didn't have to do it. If you wanted the bonus that benefited you in game--you got to look like a schmuck.

I didn't pay over a thousand dollars to look like a jack ass and get bait and switched to a game i didn't like, want or ask for. Yes it matters to me and they still have yet to update the actual army i used to play. There's a possibility they'll write off the army too.

It went for about 8 years without an update for Skaven before Fantasy died and 2 without an update in AoS for new units. I don't really count End Times but i'll admit they gave skaven something.

So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

who knows they might just all gain the primitive rule and do half dmg vs modern armored stuff.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

I think this is a step in the right direction, I have been priced out of legally purchased rules for the whole of 7th. Mainly as a choice, but prefer to have my money spent on their models.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

The inhuman appetite kinda gives them away.
It's not tapeworm, that guy is a GSC scout.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

The inhuman appetite kinda gives them away.
It's not tapeworm, that guy is a GSC scout.

I do imagine they'd be sorta easy to spot unless they're really good 4th generation ones but other than that you could probably tell. This is of course the imperium which has lots of mutants though and you'd think Tau would be accepting in normal situations for any abnormality or xenos race which is their own undoing.

I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

 TheIronCrow wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

They weren't even meant to be permanent. They were an attempt at nostalgic levity, to lighten the blow of torching the Old World.

It was a bad joke, but they were trying. They just forgot how many players take this silly hobby way too seriously.

I will be very happy if I can get most of the rules for free and try out whatever I want whenever I want, but have the options to buy 'battletomes' with fluff, art and a formation or two. I think it works perfectly in AoS.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 TheIronCrow wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

They weren't even meant to be permanent. They were an attempt at nostalgic levity, to lighten the blow of torching the Old World.

It was a bad joke, but they were trying. They just forgot how many players take this silly hobby way too seriously.

Well, people probably would have dealt with that better had the rest of the launch been better managed. It felt like they put in more effort on the gimmickry and "look at this cool new big flashy kit" side than actually creating a good ruleset, and it just didn't go over particularly well, hence why it's took so long for AoS to get to where Fantasy was even in its death-spiral late 8E state. It also didn't help that people felt that Fantasy could have been mostly fixed with like a few pages worth of rules changes and some model count reduction, so when a complete reboot that was little more than a quickstart ruleset was released, the goofiness didn't click with most people.

 davou wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:
GW has said they plan to reward 'themed' armies, that means more specialized formations with rules that create 'unbalance'.

No offense, but what makes you think you're right about that? Nobody knows at this point.

The unbalance part is pure speculation yea, but they did say they were intentionally trying to make builds more fluffy/contain detachments that were fluff based. I believe it was quoted at a Q&A panel at a recent event by GW, I read it from Faeit/Bols I would look it up but I got to go! :-)

This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Not sure where people are getting this idea from?

They have invalidated the current codexs not said they are scrapping codexs. Look at AoS and you have battle tombs you have to buy sames as codexs now.
Also who can say if 1 start collecting box is all thats needed, because that is certainly not true with most AoS start collecting boxes.

There just seems to be a lot of people being wildly optimistic about the situation.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Just read the FAQ.
Glad they acknowledge 3 different forms of play: Open play, Narrative play and Matched play.
I like dabbling in all 3 methods so I can approve readily.
I have no problem with old codexes are not compatible with the new rules.
Not to say they are still not useful for the various fluff and flavor.
Things have been patched so much that I hate to say a new re-write was overdue.
I hope they got some smart folk on-line to ensure a clean ruleset to play to.
The stories continue, if the new rules allow us to play out the various stories of 40k I think there will be much happiness with this.
Having a balanced element for competitive play will make me a VERY happy person.
Tournaments are SO much more fun with some core balancing in the rule-set.
Heck, I was ready to jump down the Shadow War Armageddon rabbit hole and say goodbye to normal 40k.
Now they go do this!
At least SWA IS a good diversion until 8th hits.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Not sure where people are getting this idea from?

They have invalidated the current codexs not said they are scrapping codexs. Look at AoS and you have battle tombs you have to buy sames as codexs now.
Also who can say if 1 start collecting box is all thats needed, because that is certainly not true with most AoS start collecting boxes.

There just seems to be a lot of people being wildly optimistic about the situation.

Unit stats and core rules are free on the website and app bro. You need one general's handbook per gaming group to play with points. You can buy the battletomes, but they are not needed to play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Smoke and mirrors.

Sure, we'll get free rules and warscrolls, but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for". They'll be designed in a way people will LEAP at buying the following books because they'll be so much "better".

And while I expect we'll get rules for "all existing models", I fully expect we'll see several individual models, if not entire armies, vanish within the next 6-12 months after release (my bet is on Sisters).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I didn't pay over a thousand dollars to look like a jack ass and get bait and switched to a game i didn't like, want or ask for. Yes it matters to me and they still have yet to update the actual army i used to play. There's a possibility they'll write off the army too.

It went for about 8 years without an update for Skaven before Fantasy died and 2 without an update in AoS for new units. I don't really count End Times but i'll admit they gave skaven something.

My Bretonnians have really enjoyed the buff the war scrolls gave them. My Sisters are looking forward to what the update at edition start will give or take from them. A thousand dollars and you didnt do any research into your investment? It happens with every edition. Its not like they just printed the "final edition" and then carted 40k off to specialist games. Things aren't nearly as bleak as you think.

Give me free rules, game wide unit updates for everything at edition start, and lessons learned by bringing in the changes of the ghb at the get go and you might get me actually playing 40k again.

Wait and see, its natural to hate change, but if this is change to you, you haven't been around long enough to know how good you already have it. Seriously though, a thousand dollars?

I almost can't believe that document is real, it sounds too reasonable and inclusive of fan feedback...