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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).

You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.

No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.

If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.

Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?

And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...

All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.

If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.

The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?

Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?

As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.

If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.

Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?

And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...

All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.

If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.

The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?

Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?

As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.

And I don't really see what's wrong with that, so long as it is happening simultaneously with the deep-strike, and isn't a deep-striking unit trying to move (as then it would obviously not be able to happen simultaneously with the deep strike, since the unit must be set-up before moving).

I could see that as a possiblity ,Are you suggesting that there is a space inbetween players turns where it isnt anybodys turn ?

In the example turn diagram on page 185

It implys that once the death guards turn is complete the space marine player can start there turn.

If there is a space inbetween things then we would have to relie on the defination of end of which can mean diffrent things so would have to conculde that its unclear?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Not really - it's a sequencing thing by trying to do it all at the end, since both units of reinforcements are defined as coming in at the end of the round. You're already in the end of the round when the first unit arrives; you are merely going through sequencing to process the order of everything that's happening at the end of the round.

If you could use sequencing to use the stratagem after the first unit arrived, then you could use sequencing to use if after all reinforcements arrive. This would also mean that you could substitute "declaring one (or more) normal units are moving at the end of the round" for "playing a stratagem" and get into the same shenanigans with them.

Right but the phase isn't over yet, surely? Or else you couldn't deep strike any other units?

And if you're just using "sequencing" then why couldn't you play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in? It's still the movement phase, and you could just use sequencing to determine when in the order of instantly-happening things the stratagem goes off...

All the reinforcements come in at the end of the phase.. You're only using sequencing to resolve which unit you place on the board first.

If you play it that you can play the stratagem the exact moment the units came in, you also would have to allow for at least one regular unit to also be nominated for its normal movement at the same exact moment to be consistent. We know you aren't allowed to move any normal units after you bring in the reinforcements, so that means you don't get to nominate that exact time period for doing things that don't specifically allow you to act then. You would need a stratagem that specifically addresses being able to be played at that time period. Auspex is one, as it uses a unit of reinforcements coming in as an explicit trigger, but you wouldn't be able to play stratagems that don't have that explicit allowance to be used at that time.

The units are not coming in simultaneously, as the wording of the stratagem Auspex Scan indicates. "Play this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit..." indicates that there is a period after your opponent sets up a unit, but before he sets up another unit, in which the stratagem may be played. Could not another stratagem be played in that spot, even if it lacked said trigger?

Alternatively, are you willing to claim that Auspex Scan happens simultaneously with deep-strikes, and therefore is illegal if your opponent puts two or more units within 12" because there is no longer "a unit" within 12"?

As I noted, this is an exception in that it specifically notes when to do it - in reaction to a unit being set up. Other stratagems do not have this specific statement. If another stratagem can be played in that spot, then another unit can be moved in that spot, even if it is not a reinforcement. If you allow the stratagem, you have to be consistent and allow the movement of a normal unit that way also.

And I don't really see what's wrong with that, so long as it is happening simultaneously with the deep-strike, and isn't a deep-striking unit trying to move (as then it would obviously not be able to happen simultaneously with the deep strike, since the unit must be set-up before moving).

There's nothing obvious about that. If the end of the phase is during the phase, then it's during the phase for movement. I can declare that I am moving a unit at the end of the phase. This means it does happen simulaneously with the deep strike.

Right yes. I agree with you 100%.

So if it happens simultaneously with deep strike, then you can't be moving a deep striking unit, as presumably you can only declare you are moving a unit that has already been set up on the board?

Serouisly end of does not just mean with in .

At the end of my life bury me

Are you saying i will be buried whilst i still have life in me ??????

ian wrote:
Serouisly end of does not just mean with in .

At the end of my life bury me

Are you saying i will be buried whilst i still have life in me ??????

Conversely, my boss might say "at the end of our meeting, give me a recap of what we said."

Presumably he doesn't mean text it to him after I've left the room and shut the door...

...I don't think it's nearly that clear cut.

I complety agree which is why i have focused on the only two examples i can find which implys that its not with in,

The squencing example lead more credabilty to that unless its agreed that there is space inbetween player turns

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts

ian wrote:
Serouisly end of does not just mean with in .

At the end of my life bury me

Are you saying i will be buried whilst i still have life in me ??????

No. I would say, "You mean after you die, bury you?".

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

ian wrote:
Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts

What's your argument that its not?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying). You can't move a unit that has deep struck because of the reinforcement rules specifically stating you can't move or advance further.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

What are you on about? I directly responded to that claim. You just can't seem to wrap your head around the Sequencing rule.
The sequencing rule is only used when one or more rules resolve at the same time.
Movement rule:

"Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish."

Teleport Strike rule:

" ...At the end of any of your movement phases they can teleport into the battle..."

Here, let me draw it out for you:
<Start (move models)........................................................................End (reinforcements)>
<---------------------------------------------During--------------------------------------------------------->

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).

Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).

Rotborn wrote:

ian wrote:
Im not sure if there has been many other rules referenced during this debate it seems to be about how this are interpretated rather then on rules or examples


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can not just say that the movement phase is 2 parts

What's your argument that its not?

this is my argument that it is not

brb pg 215 stratagems states that "before the battle " is not in a phase and that "at the end of a battle round" is not a phase

If i take on board there is no time in between phases then that must mean theres no time inbetween player turns and no time inbetween battle rounds
Player turns are defined as happening during a battle round so if your in a battle round your in a turn which is made up of 6 phase

brb pg 178 sequencing states that “at the end of a battle round” is not a turn

the players whose turn it is chooses the order.........if these things occur before or after the game or at the end of a battle round the players roll off

Rotborn wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

What are you on about? I directly responded to that claim. You just can't seem to wrap your head around the Sequencing rule.
The sequencing rule is only used when one or more rules resolve at the same time.
Movement rule:

"Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit...You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish."

Teleport Strike rule:

" ...At the end of any of your movement phases they can teleport into the battle..."

Here, let me draw it out for you:
<Start (move models)........................................................................End (reinforcements)>
<---------------------------------------------During--------------------------------------------------------->

Nope, doesn't address it. If the end of the movement phase is still in the phase, you declare it's the end of the phase when you move the last unit. Unless you're treating the end of the phase as during the phase for some things and not for others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).

Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).

The problem is getting to move a unit when/after you have reinforcements coming in (from sequencing, moving units after refinforcements arrive). If they have meant for that to be able to be done, they wouldn't bother saying that reinforcments come in at the end of the phase. They'd just say during the movement phase, and let you move units before or after they arrive.

If iti doesn't work for movement, it doesn't work for stratagems either from a consistency standpoint.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Nobody in the "end of phase is during the phase, so I can play a stratagem whenever I like" camp has been able to deny why I can't just move a unit the way you would play a stratagem, since it's still during the round.

Because, its nonsensical.

The movement phase is essentially two parts, Battlefield maneuvers followed by reinforcements. The rule for moving models on the battlefield resolves before reinforcements. Hence, why Sequencing cannot be used. This specific stratagem can occur during either part of the movement phase.

But, if sequencing can't be used, then you can't use it during the end of phase for stratagems either.

So you've yet to respond to my claim that yes, you can move simultaneously with deep striking, but cannot move a unit that deep struck (as a unit must have been set up on the battlefield before it can be declared to move).

You declare you are moving at the end of the movement phase with a unit. This will then make it simulaneous with the deep striking units (who, although count as having moved when they are on the board, are not moving at this time but deploying).

Right, so, what's the problem with this? I think it's allowed (given of course that said moving unit did not move earlier in the phase or something weird).

The problem is that you that don't "declare" when you are moving a model. That's not how the rule is written.

Are you done with movement phase and moving on to the psychic phase?

If yes, perform end of movement phase actions.

If no, then you're not at end of phase yet.

If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Are you done with movement phase and moving on to the psychic phase?

If yes, perform end of movement phase actions.

If no, then you're not at end of phase yet.

If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.

You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.

END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)

Words have meanings, meanings are important.

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).

You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.

No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.

This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;

"They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."

It's also ironic that you use the exact point I am making to try and disprove me. If GW wanted you to use this during the point where you play reinforcements AND during the rest of the movement phase they would have put "at the start of, during and at the end of the phase you may select one......". They didn't. Because you're not to use it at the end.

Rotborn wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Are you done with movement phase and moving on to the psychic phase?

If yes, perform end of movement phase actions.

If no, then you're not at end of phase yet.

If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.

You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.

END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)

Words have meanings, meanings are important.

None of these actions happen after the movement phase. They happen at the end of the movement phase. When you are done performing movement phase actions the movement phase ends and end of movement phase actions happen. Is it technically after or during it's own special twilight-zone phase? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. You cannot reach the "end of movement phase" actions until you are done with the movement phase. If you are doing anything else that isn't an "end of movement phase" action, you aren't done with the movement phase and cannot be performing end of movement phase actions.

Also, cute entry from the dictionary. Quite literally the next entry in the dictionary for "end":

1.1 A termination of a state or situation.
‘the party called for an end to violence’
‘one notice will be effective to bring the tenancy to an end’






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to get super extra cute with definitions, if the end of the movement phase is the final part of something and then you do something else, I guess you weren't actually at the final part of something now were you?

From the Tenets of You Make Da Call:

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

Has everbody just dismissed the example i have given ? It difines what end of means.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And its not just arguing about definations its an example of how the rules see it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only response i have had is there is no active player but that doesnt really hold up

ian wrote:
Has everbody just dismissed the example i have given ? It difines what end of means.



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And its not just arguing about definations its an example of how the rules see it


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The only response i have had is there is no active player but that doesnt really hold up

That was directed at myself and rotborn, I'm pretty sure.

While that example seems pretty clear cut for what "end of" means I'm sure others will still argue this to death as it isn't specifically referring to phases.

Its always a players turn during a battle round. So when they say that if its not in a players turn ie .......at the end of the battle round....... then roll off (paraphasing)

If you follow this then no stratagem thats states during can be used if end of has started because the examples given show us what to do in these situations

This is not just my interpretation its backed up by rules sources


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I have given a second example now that refers directly to turns which is stated as happening during the battle round . The locations i have posted above


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Thank you for the reply

I have given 2 examples now one thats loosly defined because of the term phase
And on that is better defined because it uses turns




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And i am now starting to see how this will carry on and for some strange reason i keep getting drawn back into it, there should be an extra warning on you make da call .... can be extermly addictive

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).

You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.

No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.

This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;

What's tiring is everyone's refusal to acknowledge the meaning of words within the English language. The plain meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" is undeniable. You can try to claim that "END" means after, but it doesn't hold water. They are two separate parts of speech that have different meanings. END means within a period of time and AFTER means following a period of time. Why is this so hard to grasp?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
"They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

This is insane.
During means at any point within a period of time; the movement phase is a period of time.
Reinforcements occur at the end of the Movement Phase; Again, the movement phase is a period of time.
The end of a period of time, is still within that same period of time. Therefore, the stratagem can be played simultaneously with reinforcements, as they are both resolved at the same time within the movement phase. This is refuted only by changing the meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" to fit how you feel the rule was intended.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."

Here you seem to almost understand the distinction between END and AFTER (your parenthetical led you off the path, though). Two rules resolving at the same time doesn't mean that they occur AFTER the phase. They both occur simultaneously at the END.