Primarch returns - View of their Chapters.

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**pm713**

w1zard wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.

I'm usually pretty open to different people's interpretations of the lore, considering that most things are so subjective. The worst I will do is try to argue my side.

However, at this point I seriously have to call into question your knowledge of the lore and your bias. You are just flat out wrong. You are ascribing powers to Magnus beyond what he actually had. There was no way he could have just "teleported" to Terra considering that Terra had one of the most powerful psychic defense networks in existence. The idea that Magnus could somehow access the webway that he had no knowledge existed because the Emperor kept it a secret from him is bunk. You cannot use psychic powers to "speed up" warp travel unless you can affect the currents of the warp itself, which is outside of even the Emperor's capabilities. There was no way he could have just snapped his fingers and made the wolves stop the burning of Prospero once Russ decided he wanted blood.

Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal, and there was only one way that Magnus knew of that could both reach the emperor on time, and have 0 chance of being intercepted, and that was to contact the emperor directly. He knew he was breaking the rules, but he thought the very fate of the Imperium itself was at stake. So he broke the rules, fully willing to accept the punishment that came with it so long as the Emperor was warned about Horus. Little did Magnus know something MUCH worse would happen.

I'm going to end the discussion here because it seems that our interpretations of the lore are completely incompatible with each other. For what it is worth, I'm not even a thousand sons fanboy, my favorite traitors are actually the IW. But you seem to have a massive bias towards the space wolves.

I didn't say he could teleport? Except for the part he did where he sent his mind there.

Firstly Magnus did know about the Webway because he was investigating it and built a miniature version on Prospero. Second breaking it exactly what he did. He broke the WEBWAY project when he broke into it with Tzeentch's help.
Third you can use psychic powers to make your Warp travel by altering the currents around you and Thousand Son sorcerors do it prior to the Battle of the Fang. Fourth Magnus could have stopped the fighting from even happening by surrendering himself instead of sulking.

Almost everything you've said is plain wrong and the rest is debatable. The discussion is best ended because you have no understanding of the lore or reading comprehension.

**w1zard**

pm713 wrote:
Firstly Magnus did know about the Webway because he was investigating it and built a miniature version on Prospero.

But he didn't know the emperor was working on the human webway project, he had no way of knowing. He didn't know there was a way through the webway to Terra.

pm713 wrote:
Second breaking it exactly what he did. He broke the WEBWAY project when he broke into it with Tzeentch's help.

On ACCIDENT. He didn't say to himself "hurr durr I'm going to purposely break my father's 1000 year project and destroy humanity's last, best hope against chaos". It was more like "Dad I really need to talk to you! Horus has turned traitor and he's taken half the legions and... oh no, what did I do?"

pm713 wrote:
Third you can use psychic powers to make your Warp travel by altering the currents around you and Thousand Son sorcerors do it prior to the Battle of the Fang.

No, you cannot. The only things powerful enough to alter the currents of the warp are the chaos gods themselves. The battle of the fang takes place long after the thousand sons fall to chaos, and they were able to do this because they beseeched their patron deity for help. If every joe blow sorcerer was able to speed up or slow down warp travel, then why are there constantly examples in the fluff of psykers (even powerful ones like Malcador) saying stuff like "it's up to the currents of the warp when X fleet will arrive" etc.

pm713 wrote:
Fourth Magnus could have stopped the fighting from even happening by surrendering himself instead of sulking.

He had no idea that Russ was willing to accept surrender because he never got Russ' surrender demand. Russ for his part, never tried to communicate with Magnus directly, he came in guns blazing and slaughtered EVERYONE, including civilians. Magnus thought that Russ was there to kill him and burn his world no questions end of story, and so it was his way of "repentance" to not fight back and to help the space wolves by disabling Prospero's defenses and shielding the Space Wolf fleet from detection. Sure, he was "sulking" too, but wouldn't you feel bad if you had just accidentally broke something your father had been working on for the past 1,000 years?

pm713 wrote:
Almost everything you've said is plain wrong and the rest is debatable. The discussion is best ended because you have no understanding of the lore or reading comprehension.

And you are intentionally misrepresenting the fluff and saying things that flat out aren't true.

**Delvarus Centurion**

SeanDavid1991 wrote:
This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.

Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.

I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.

I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.

I know Leman Russ would be happy with his legion, because Njal/Bjorns force they took to save the 13th showed how they still fight identically to the old guard, and they are steeped in tradition anyweays. He'd be pissed off with all the stuff they see as sacred though like spear of Russ, the Wolves treated it like the dead sea scrolls and banished Ragnar for losing it, wanting to kill him and when Ragnar told that he lost the spear to Torvald, Torvald swore and said "He was constantly losing the damn thing. Do you recall the time he drank all that stormwine on Sirenia and tried to throw the bloody spear at the moon? Took us days to find it afterwords. Truth be told he hated that big boar sticker'.

**pm713**

w1zard if you're going to start claiming I'm lying about things just because I disagree with you then you need to chill. Take a breath, learn the lore and take another breath.

**BrianDavion**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
SeanDavid1991 wrote:
This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.

Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.

I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.

I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.

I know Leman Russ would be happy with his legion, because Njal/Bjorns force they took to save the 13th showed how they still fight identically to the old guard, and they are steeped in tradition anyweays. He'd be pissed off with all the stuff they see as sacred though like spear of Russ, the Wolves treated it like the dead sea scrolls and banished Ragnar for losing it, wanting to kill him and when Ragnar told that he lost the spear to Torvald, Torvald swore and said "He was constantly losing the damn thing. Do you recall the time he drank all that stormwine on Sirenia and tried to throw the bloody spear at the moon? Took us days to find it afterwords. Truth be told he hated that big boar sticker'.

it's a little more complicated then that. Wolfsbane dicusses his relationship with the spear a fair bit

**pm713**

Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

**Sgt_Smudge**

pm713 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.
How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.

The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.

However, the Wolves played their hand first.

The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?
How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?

If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.

Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?

It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.

The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.
The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.

The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.

The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.

Also, "the Space Wolves know more" - how?

They don't and I haven't said the Grey Knights over the Custodes. What I was saying is that the Grey Knights don't have authority over the Inquisition. Nobody does except for Custodes in the Palace.

My mistake. However, the Grey Knights DO have the power and the political clout to resist the Inquisition, and mete punishment if necessary. Again, they can't ORDER the Inquisition, but they can certainly hold power over them.

Exempt or not the Inquisition doesn't MAKE the rules and they don't have any claim to be the authority on gene seed.

You mirepresent my argument.

I'm not talking about authority on geneseed. I'm talking about having authority IN GENERAL, and not being beholden to the same laws that govern other Imperial branches.

The Inquisition don't make the rules, but what they do and can get others to do is beyond those rules - granted by their Rosette.

The Space Wolf geneseed has the Canis Helix an additional component. All other gene-seeds have the same components. They give the same changes as each other. The Canis Helix was made, all the others weren't they're just mutations on the original hence why they're a potential problem. The Helix isn't because it isn't actually a mutation it was designed to be put there. It isn't a permanent change because while they make for good berserker fighters against enemies they aren't good soldiers. Braindead idiots are better than Marines in the way that they aren't smart enough to rebel but they're worse soldiers overall. Wulfen are the same - Better at a specific thing but worse overall.

Incorrect. Every Legion's geneseed differed somewhat. They all have the same few base ones, but some add to this, mutate, differ. The Canis Helix isn't the issue. The Helix WAS meant to be there. However, I see no evidence to suggest that it was primarily intended to mutate and create Wulfen.

Unless you can show me that the Wulfen were an intentional mutation, I have to disagree.

It's called Curse because the individual undergoing the change effectively dies and it's pretty horrid morally but the Emperor has no reason to care about that. Agree to disagree. I think it's more logical something like that that comes from a specific geneseed component that was specially made for a task makes more sense rather than YET ANOTHER horrible mistake by the Emperor.

Again, I think it's more likely "yet another horrible mistake", because clearly the Emperor is prone to these kinds of errors.

I think it's fair to say that after 10'000 years of experience the Wolves have more knowledge about their geneseed than the Inquisition.

I'm not questioning that. You miss my argument.

My main argument is that legally, the Inquisition and Grey Knight can absolutely do their Chaos rituals and teamkilling and killing civilians, and they are still Legally Right. They're not Legally Grey - they're Morally Grey.

You only brought in Wulfen when I said, in a completely unrelated situation, that the Space Wolves hadn't been sanctioned the use of them. That was never my main argument, but I can see you're mixing them together.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?

**john27**

I'm betting vulkan would act exactly as he did in if the emperor had a text to speech device just a little less comic and more serious, with the whole "the imperium has enough generals" spin to it.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?

proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.

**casvalremdeikun**

I think Dorn would be pleased with his Chapter and their Successors. They hold pretty strongly to his tenets. I think the whole deal about what happened in the War of the Beast would just vindicate him in his idea that breaking the Legions was ill-advised. He would probably also be pleased that not only was the Last Wall Protocol necessary, but that it was executed very well and that the Chapters followed it to the best of their ability.

**Formosa**

I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.

It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.

**BaconCatBug**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think Dorn would be pleased with his Chapter and their Successors. They hold pretty strongly to his tenets. I think the whole deal about what happened in the War of the Beast would just vindicate him in his idea that breaking the Legions was ill-advised. He would probably also be pleased that not only was the Last Wall Protocol necessary, but that it was executed very well and that the Chapters followed it to the best of their ability.

If anyone has the right to say "I told you so", it would be Dorn.

**BrianDavion**

Sure if Dorn opposed it for logical reasons. I suspect he didn't, Dorn's just stubnbron and resists change.

**casvalremdeikun**

BrianDavion wrote:
Sure if Dorn opposed it for logical reasons. I suspect he didn't, Dorn's just stubnbron and resists change.

He did oppose it for logical reasons. Chaos was retreating and rather than pursue, Guilliman wanted to reorganize and repaint the Legions.

**w1zard**

Formosa wrote:
I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.

It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.

Then why didn't the emperor only apply the edict at Nikaea to the thousand sons legion only, since they were the troublemakers? Or apply an edict that harshly limits psykers but doesn't eliminate them completely. Issuing a blanket ban, and then ignoring the infractions of a few favored legions just reeks of favoritism and makes no sense. Frankly I understand the traitor legions' grievances in that regard. The emperor really screwed over some legions while seeming to favor others.

**Formosa**

w1zard wrote:
Formosa wrote:
I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.

It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.

Then why didn't the emperor only apply the edict at Nikaea to the thousand sons legion only, since they were the troublemakers? Or apply an edict that harshly limits psykers but doesn't eliminate them completely. Issuing a blanket ban, and then ignoring the infractions of a few favored legions just reeks of favoritism and makes no sense. Frankly I understand the traitor legions' grievances in that regard. The emperor really screwed over some legions while seeming to favor others.

That’s a complicated answer , right so the edict was planned before they found mortarion, we know this as mortarion is directly told by malcador, now this may seem innocent on the face of it, even reasonable, they wanted to curtail the power of psykers within the legions.

Then first lord of terra came out and gave a whole new slant on the motives behind certain decisions that the emperor and malcador made, the legions were eventually to be disposed of, curtailing the use of psykers would mean that it would eventually be easier to kill them off as in the long run... the psykers would have been mostly gone through casualties (assuming the heresy did not happen).

Now back to mortarion, he refused to take charge of his legion, malcador persuaded him to do so by promising that the edict would happen and the psykers he so hated would be dealt with.

So with all of that in mind, it seems clear to me that the thousand sons were set up to fail, but not Magnus, Magnus had a purpose and this is why the order was to bring him back to terra, while the thousand sons were disposable and rightly so in the context of eventually purging the legions.

Now here’s the other problem, Magnus made a deal, not sold his soul, with tzeench for knowledge on how to stop the flesh change, I get the impression that this information was a deception, tzeench just stopped the flesh change and Magnus believed it was the info he gained that did, just as planned, that’s just conjecture though, so after this deal Magnus was tainted but still in control of his actions, some time later Magnus met shaytan, a hideously powerful deamon that out matched even Magnus in the psychic department, without giving too much away Magnus had this deamon bound to his book, the one he varies everywhere, further tainting himself, and on and on Magnus went, constantly ignoring his fathers warnings, and eventually this led to the censure of the thousand sons.

That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?

proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.

No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:
I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.

It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.

I'm guessing it still doesn't mention why the Rune Priests have their whole "channel their power through Fenris" thing?

**Sgt_Smudge**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sure if Dorn opposed it for logical reasons. I suspect he didn't, Dorn's just stubnbron and resists change.
He did oppose it for logical reasons. Chaos was retreating and rather than pursue, Guilliman wanted to reorganize and repaint the Legions.

Considering that Guilliman and his Ultramarines were one of the main forces in the pursuing of the Traitor forces (The Scouring), he was hardly opposed to pushing the attack.

He only set up the breaking of the legions after the Chaos forces had fled into the Eye.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?

proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.

No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:
I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.

It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.

I'm guessing it still doesn't mention why the Rune Priests have their whole "channel their power through Fenris" thing?

It does and in quite a good way, essentially they know they they don’t actually literally draw power from fenris but the warp, it’s a euphemism for using the teachings they learned as goti and the limits that imposed, so when they say “we draw out power from fenris” they mean “we channel the warp according to the teachings of our society, so know we have hard limits”

It’s in the same manner they use the term “wryd” they mean fate, but their society calls it something else and has a belief structure built around it.

**pm713**

I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.

What was your guess out of interest pm?

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.

What was your guess out of interest pm?

I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.

**ikeulhu**

pm713 wrote:

I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.

That was my head canon theory as well!

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.

What was your guess out of interest pm?

I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.

That’s quite close to what I had hoped it was, but I went darker, I wanted it to be a low level deamon world like caliban.

**w1zard**

Formosa wrote:
That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall

I never claimed Magnus did nothing wrong. He did a lot of things wrong. What I am claiming is that the things he did wrong, he did because he genuinely thought he was doing right. Had the emperor not been trying to childishly pretend the chaos gods didn't exist, and actually give Magnus reasons why his warnings should be heeded instead of "do as I say, not as I do" then maybe the fall of the 1k Sons could have been avoided.

Telling Magnus not to delve into warpcraft, and only giving the reason "because I said so" when he asks why is like telling an alcoholic he can't drink and responding "because I said so" whilst chugging a whole bottle of whisky and burping in his face instead of responding with something reasonable.

Magnus genuinely believed that everything he did was helping his legion, and humanity as a whole. None of the mistakes he made, he made out of malice or hatred toward the Imperium or the emperor. Even after he broke the webway, all he wanted to do was help and lessen the inevitable fallout that his actions caused. THAT is why his fall is so tragic. It was only at the end on Prospero that he finally turned. Seeing his world burnt to the ground around him and seeing his legion and his people slaughtered mercilessly by the wolves was finally the straw that broke the camel's back after all the years of being badmouthed by the other legions and told he was a freak by his brothers.

Also... the emperor should have expected the legions to turn at some point. Did he really think that he could treat them like disposable meatbags, play favorites, and intentionally try to kill them off and they would just lay down and take it? Hell, normal humans wouldn't stand for that let alone astartes. Did he really think that he could plot to have the legions disposed of at the end of the crusade and not have a least a slight chance of them finding out beforehand and causing trouble?

**godking**

w1zard wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.

Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?

Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.

The Emperor planned to do away with the Navigators had he succeeded in creating his webway. Which is one of the underlying plot points in one of the white scars heresy novels.

**w1zard**

godking wrote:
w1zard wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.

Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?

Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.
The Emperor planned to do away with the Navigators had he succeeded in creating his webway. Which is one of the underlying plot points in one of the white scars heresy novels.

I am aware of this. It still doesn't change the fact that the Imperium would die out if all of the navigators were killed off because the webway project was never finished. pm713 was referring to groups in both m30 and m41 who want to kill off the navigators independant of the knowledge that the emperor was scheming to have them killed off anyway after the webway project was finished.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?

Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.

That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear

It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.

Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.

That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?

proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.

No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.

proably because telling Russ "this spear will be used to kill your brother when he's hopped up on chaos juice" would go over poorly. the emperor knew russ would know what to do with it when the time came. And Russ NEVER liked the spear. He accepted it would be needed, but he never LIKED it. Acceptance =/ liking it.