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 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Alpharius returns "I am Alpharius".

Marine. "Welcome Alpharius, I am Alpharius".

Alpharius "No I am the real Alpharius".

Marine "So am I"

so on and so forth....

Betis: "Do you guys think that the "I'm Alpharius" thing is a little played out?

Epsilonus: "Kinda, but sadly, not even dedicated genocide won't erase a catch phrase."

Deltan: "Oh but look at how much fun they're having."

Kappanius: "Yes, but this will keep on going. For hours."

Zetanis: "Fine, whose turn is it to deal with everybody? Isn't it yours, Sigmar?"

Sigmar: "Can't you see I'm a little busy!?!"

Tau: "Don't look at me, I have my own project. Maybe they won't notice if I add an " ' "..."

Omicros: "You two and your stupid hobbies... fine, I'll handle this. I wish I was an only child..."

pm713 wrote:
But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.

Magnus never got the message because of the machinations of chaos, and he had no way of finding out. I don't know where you get the idea that Magnus could have just snapped his fingers and instantly knew Russ' intent. We as the readers know what is going on, but Magnus had no clue. And if shielding the entire space wolf fleet from orbital sensors, and deactivating one of the most extensive defensive networks in the entire Imperium wasn't "helping the space wolves enough" then I don't know what to say to you.

Magnus got shafted, HARD. His was the most tragic fall out of all of the Primarchs, save for perhaps Angron, because he had nothing but good intentions the entire time and was loyal until the bitter end. Even when he was getting massacred by the wolves he refused to fight back because it would be furthering Tzeench's plan to get the wolves and 1k sons to kill each other off. It was only at the very end, when he could no longer take the space wolves butchery of his people did he finally turn traitor.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?

Russ thought that one of his men, Kasper Ansbach Hawser was actually a spy for Magnus. He thought this because he was told so by a warp entity. He was actually a chaos agent. Russ passed the surrender demand to Hawser, expecting that it would reach Magnus, but Hawser obviously doesn't do it. You realize that the warp entity that told Russ that Hawser was a 1k Sons plant was most likely Tzeench himself, or a demon under Tzeench's command and that Tzeench planned for this all to happen years in advance. It is never outright stated, but it is heavily implied. Just as planned.

As for Tzeench being the mastermind behind everything. Magnus realizes during the fight with Russ that EVERYTHING had been set up perfectly, and that he had been outplayed hard and used as a tool to destroy the emperor's webway project. Everything was just too neat, and this was obviously the design of the changer of ways. Tzeench teleporting Magnus away before he can be killed kind of confirms Magnus' suspicions.

EDIT: It may not have been Crimson King, but possibly A Thousand Sons? Honestly, there are so many 40k book they all kind of blur together.

Kasper was indeed used as a pawn thats clear, and he indeed housed a warp entity in his memories of leaving Terra, the same one that influenced his life subtley most of his life, he was an unknowing agent of chaos is also very true, Russ wrongly passed on an invitation of surrender to Kasper but did not pass on another offer when reaching Prospero, so he wasted his breach, but I can see why he thought he had already made the offer.

Kasper has no control over the entity in his mind so cannot pass on a message to Magnus who has no idea this is evening happening and no idea that Kasper even has a warp creature in his mind, this is where you lose me, your making a leap of logic that is in no way supported by the literature, that warp creature that fights Amon (custodes) and the wolves is in no way Tzeench, possibly a deamon of that god but thats it, as you say, and sure I can see why it looks like its just as planned, but that all rides on one thing... magnus ignoring the Emperors warnings in the first place and saying "yes" to having the power/knowledge to fix the flesh change, Tzeench can scheme all it likes but at the end of the day, it was Magnus that set the ball rolling in the first place, its all on him and he knows it.

And it was Thousand sons

 Formosa wrote:

Kasper was indeed used as a pawn thats clear, and he indeed housed a warp entity in his memories of leaving Terra, the same one that influenced his life subtley most of his life, he was an unknowing agent of chaos is also very true, Russ wrongly passed on an invitation of surrender to Kasper but did not pass on another offer when reaching Prospero, so he wasted his breach, but I can see why he thought he had already made the offer.

Kasper has no control over the entity in his mind so cannot pass on a message to Magnus who has no idea this is evening happening and no idea that Kasper even has a warp creature in his mind, this is where you lose me, your making a leap of logic that is in no way supported by the literature, that warp creature that fights Amon (custodes) and the wolves is in no way Tzeench, possibly a deamon of that god but thats it, as you say, and sure I can see why it looks like its just as planned, but that all rides on one thing... magnus ignoring the Emperors warnings in the first place and saying "yes" to having the power/knowledge to fix the flesh change, Tzeench can scheme all it likes but at the end of the day, it was Magnus that set the ball rolling in the first place, its all on him and he knows it.

And it was Thousand sons

Like I said, it was never explicitly stated that Tzeench was behind everything, but it fits too well. Magnus even outright suspects in a mental monologue that all of this was planned all along from the very beginning by the Lord of Fate as an elaborate plot to destroy the webway project and weaken the Imperium by killing off two legions.

Yes, Magnus' flaws allowed him to be manipulated by Tzeench, but come on. It's not really fair to blame Magnus for being outwitted by a chaos god.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.

Magnus never got the message because of the machinations of chaos, and he had no way of finding out. I don't know where you get the idea that Magnus could have just snapped his fingers and instantly knew Russ' intent. We as the readers know what is going on, but Magnus had no clue. And if shielding the entire space wolf fleet from orbital sensors, and deactivating one of the most extensive defensive networks in the entire Imperium wasn't "helping the space wolves enough" then I don't know what to say to you.

Magnus got shafted, HARD. His was the most tragic fall out of all of the Primarchs, save for perhaps Angron, because he had nothing but good intentions the entire time and was loyal until the bitter end. Even when he was getting massacred by the wolves he refused to fight back because it would be furthering Tzeench's plan to get the wolves and 1k sons to kill each other off. It was only at the very end, when he could no longer take the space wolves butchery of his people did he finally turn traitor.

I get the impression from the fact Magnus has incredible psychic power. To the point he's the second best human psyker ever. So I think it's safe to say he has telepathy that could have been used to help Russ. He also has foresight which he could have used to disable Thousand Son defence or just wait for Russ to arrive in orbit knowing Russ would take his surrender. Magnus's capabilities made it very easy for him to get a peaceful ending but he just didn't do it.

He helped them yes but nowhere near as much as someone whose accepted their fate has. He could have completely shut down the Thousand Son defenders powers and massively reduced the Wolf casualties. Magnus wasn't someone who'd accepted his fate and was ready to accept the punishment. It was much more like the second stage of his emotional crisis from wrecking the Webway Project (which is an understandable thing if your knowledge is limited to what Magnus knew). First he retreated into privacy, second he tried to repent for what he did and finally he accepted that he was a traitor and had been for a while.

Magnus has a tragic story, I agree, he was a man trying to recover and redistribute knowledge his species lost in chaos and war to make a better tomorrow but the tragedy is he was doing it in a world where that wasn't possible. From the Mechanicus to the Emperor so much of the Imperium went against Magnus dreamt of. That's the tragedy. At another time he would've been revered but he wasn't that lucky.
As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going. Arguably that was when he became traitor. If not then then he was definitely going traitor when he thought instead of telling the Emperor about Horus in a different way he went through the Warp and shattered the Webway Project. When he started killing Astartes he'd been a Traitor for a while, he just didn't accept it. That said I don't blame him for it given the story of his character. The tragedy of Magnus is that he was a person seeking knowledge when that was a very bad thing and his fall could have been avoided with incredible ease.

pm713 wrote:

As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.

By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.

By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.

Nor did anybody else. It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

That said, GW really should actually explain whether Rune Priests powers are different somehow and if not why they think they are. I've only seen them as much as mention it from a Wolf perspective once and they ignored it again. Which is a bit sad considering it took me less than 5 minutes to come up with some kind of explanation for it.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.

By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.

And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.

pm713 wrote:
Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.

Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.

Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship

Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.

Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship

Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.

its out mate, its been out for weeks?

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.

Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship

Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.

its out mate, its been out for weeks?

Not on Amazon which is generally where I buy books. I could buy it from Black Library but it costs something like £7 more and I'm not paying that when I can either just wait a bit for Amazon or look in a book shop when I next have the chance.

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

I think there was viking lore build-up that kind of fell by the wayside when it comes to power from Fenris.
In Viking lore Ragnarok/the endtime happens when Fenris eats the world. So put a 40k swing on it, Fenris is a world, becomes a monster in its own right and eats everything - lets call it the wolftime.

Fenris swallows Odin, not the world any of the other worlds. I've seen some say the sun is eaten by Fenris, but most of the time it is the wolves Skoll and Hati, who chase the sun and moon and will eventually catch them. In the end the realms do survive with surviving gods and humans coming back to rebuild in the aftermath.

w1zard wrote:
A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.

You should let all those Eldar farseers and warlocks know that their rune magic and rigid mental compartmentalisation isn't actually protecting them from Slaanesh after all...

The fluff has always been pretty clear that there are various ways to channel Warp energy and that some are much safer than others. Channeling through runes (as both Eldar seers and SW rune priests do) is much safer than just opening your soul to the Warp and literally unleashing Hell. Conversely, making pacts with Warp entities to channel more power than you could naturally handle (i.e. sorcery) is especially dangerous.

There's also precedence for planets with particularly rich ecosystems having a gestalt soul capable of accessing the Warp and allowing mortal psykers to tap it relatively safely (possibly by 'filtering out' the daemons), because that's how Eldar Exodite world-spirits work.

So it's entirely possible that SW rune priests really are different and safer than what the TS were doing, and that the Emperor recognised that but couldn't publically explain his reasoning (because understanding the relevant differences would have required knowing about daemons and the Chaos Gods - and also that the SW were unwittingly replicating the practices of xenos 'witches'). The Emperor turning a blind eye to the SW use of psykers makes perfect sense if the Emperor knew they really were 'safe'.

 Duskweaver wrote:

w1zard wrote:
A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.

You should let all those Eldar farseers and warlocks know that their rune magic and rigid mental compartmentalisation isn't actually protecting them from Slaanesh after all...

The fluff has always been pretty clear that there are various ways to channel Warp energy and that some are much safer than others. Channeling through runes (as both Eldar seers and SW rune priests do) is much safer than just opening your soul to the Warp and literally unleashing Hell. Conversely, making pacts with Warp entities to channel more power than you could naturally handle (i.e. sorcery) is especially dangerous.

There's also precedence for planets with particularly rich ecosystems having a gestalt soul capable of accessing the Warp and allowing mortal psykers to tap it relatively safely (possibly by 'filtering out' the daemons), because that's how Eldar Exodite world-spirits work.

So it's entirely possible that SW rune priests really are different and safer than what the TS were doing, and that the Emperor recognised that but couldn't publically explain his reasoning (because understanding the relevant differences would have required knowing about daemons and the Chaos Gods - and also that the SW were unwittingly replicating the practices of xenos 'witches'). The Emperor turning a blind eye to the SW use of psykers makes perfect sense if the Emperor knew they really were 'safe'.

Your both correct, a psyker is a psyker and draws on the warp, it really doesn’t matter what you CALL it, it’s still drawing on the warp, now the process (not name) is what also matters, the Tsons drew without any thought to how much they should draw, the runepreists limited themselves on purpose.

Both are still psykers, both broke the edict, Russ, jaghatai and sang get a pass, but why? Simple, malcador explains the plan in first lord of the imperium.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

pm713 wrote:
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

What part of "Russ did the exact same thing" don't you understand? If you class Magnus as a traitor for breaking the ruling at Nikea, then Russ is as well, along with Khan and Sanguinius. The fact that Magnus broke it "worse" than the others is irrelevant.

The inquisition work with the full authority of the emperor. Defying the inquisition IS defying the emperor directly. The wolves defied the emperor and the Imperium itself when they refused to submit to the inquisition. They even fought back and killed loyal imperial subjects. The only time the 1k Sons fought and killed other imperials is when they were being directly attacked on Prospero. I still don't get why you are applying your standards of "traitor" so unevenly between the 1k Sons and the Space Wolves.

The fact of the matter is, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were loyal in heart and soul to the Imperium until the very end on Prospero. They broke rules, they did things they shouldn't have, and they ignored warnings, because they thought what they were doing was so important to the future of the Imperium that it didn't matter that they were breaking rules because it was THAT important. They were wrong, and they paid for it. But, to insist that they were anything but loyal subjects that were ultimately manipulated and tricked into betraying the Imperium does them a disservice. They were a far cry from the REAL traitors shouting "death to the false emperor" at the dropsite massacre.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

That was actually my point...... They all did things in the grey area.

The Inquisition butchered innocents, destroyed multiple worlds with little justification and assaulted one of the oldest Chapters in the Imperium, the Grey Knights helped them do all that and plotted the assassination of a Lord Inquisitor. The Space Wolves did a bunch of bad things too but they also acted to protect humans and in self defence. Everyone involved is in the grey. Except for Angrons lot and the Guard. They seem pretty clear cut as bad and good respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

What part of "Russ did the exact same thing" don't you understand? If you class Magnus as a traitor for breaking the ruling at Nikea, then Russ is as well, along with Khan and Sanguinius. The fact that Magnus broke it "worse" than the others is irrelevant.

The inquisition work with the full authority of the emperor. Defying the inquisition IS defying the emperor directly. The wolves defied the emperor and the Imperium itself when they refused to submit to the inquisition. They even fought back and killed loyal imperial subjects. The only time the 1k Sons fought and killed other imperials is when they were being directly attacked on Prospero. I still don't get why you are applying your standards of "traitor" so unevenly between the 1k Sons and the Space Wolves.

The fact of the matter is, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were loyal in heart and soul to the Imperium until the very end on Prospero. They broke rules, they did things they shouldn't have, and they ignored warnings, because they thought what they were doing was so important to the future of the Imperium that it didn't matter that they were breaking rules because it was THAT important. They were wrong, and they paid for it. But, to insist that they were anything but loyal subjects that were ultimately manipulated and tricked into betraying the Imperium does them a disservice. They were a far cry from the REAL traitors shouting "death to the false emperor" at the dropsite massacre.

The Space Marines were founded before the Imperium began by the Emperor soley to fight to safeguard humanity. Obstructing that is obstructing the Emperors goal. It's very easy to make someone out to be a Traitor in Warhammer. The Space Wolves acted in self defence and to protect innocent loyal subjects so that's hardly traitorly while butchering millions of innocents very much is. But that has nothing to do with Prospero.

The Thousand Sons and Magnus existed in 30k which had greatly different rules to 40k e.g. they went from crushing religion to murdering everyone not a part of it. So let's look at 30k: The Emperor decrees that in no uncertain terms psychic powers are not be used and specifically told Magnus to cut the Warp experiments and such.
Then Magnus and the Sons return to Prospero and continue doing their psychic powers. At that point they are strictly speaking, criminals but I will admit that every single Legion shares that problem by the end of the Heresy.
Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried. That's very clearly becoming a traitor as he's consorting with Chaos.

Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.

Magnus and his Sons are very much criminals which is realistically fine because everyone was at that time and the rule ended up being ignored. But Magnus goes pretty quickly into Traitor grounds and his Legion follows him. The fact that most of the blame shouldn't be put on them makes it a tragic story but they're still the bad guys in it all.

Although there's a good argument that everyone who got involved was in the darker shades of grey.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

The Grey Knights are black and white - they don't exist. You can bring up any atrocity you want commited by the Grey Knights but since a non-existent militia can't be put on trial they don't get called traitor or excommunicated, it's the same reason the Wolves never got dragged up on going to war with the Grey Knights, you can't go to war with something that doesn't exist.

The Grey Knights are black and white - they don't exist. You can bring up any atrocity you want commited by the Grey Knights but since a non-existent militia can't be put on trial they don't get called traitor or excommunicated, it's the same reason the Wolves never got dragged up on going to war with the Grey Knights, you can't go to war with something that doesn't exist.

No they absolutely are not black and white, people may not know they exist... but they are one of if not THE poster boys for shades of grey that 40k embodies, they use sorcery (banned), chaos rituals, human sacrifice, genocide etc. and they are the GOOD GUYS????... well in the context of the setting they absolutely are... its actually why I like 40k so much, there is no such thing as a proper "good guy" faction or person in the whole setting.

Skaorn wrote:
Fenris swallows Odin, not the world any of the other worlds. I've seen some say the sun is eaten by Fenris, but most of the time it is the wolves Skoll and Hati, who chase the sun and moon and will eventually catch them. In the end the realms do survive with surviving gods and humans coming back to rebuild in the aftermath.

Sköll and Hati succeeds in chasing the sun and moon. Fenrir kills Odin, but Odins son Vidarr kills Fenrir by tearing his jaws apart. It is hard to translate it to SW lore, because Fenrir is a malignant creature to the Æsir. Fenrir is the son of Loki, the betrayer, killer of Baldr etc. And we know that SW characters are similar to Æsir gods (Thor and Loki atleast, but Lukas/Loki is simply a trickster in SW lore - in the mythology he is a trickster to such an extend, that he is the downfall of everything, the end of the Æsir and the world). Seems Loki represents the opportunistic/psychpatic side of humans, those that instigate things just because they are capable of it. Loki is bound to the Æsir as the blood-brother of Odin, in a poem that has been lost - which is why Odin cannot get rid of him, they’re oath-bound. It seems that initially, Loki was a helpful character.

Yes, i read more sagas than i do 40k lore

TL;DR SW lore cannot be translated to norse mythology, GW just loosely uses concepts from saga litterature.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

Not really.

Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.

However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.

The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

Not really.

Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.

However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.

The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.

I am not saying that smudgey boy.

"by the rules of the Imperium" But they dont play by the rules of the imperium and the imperium at large doesnt know they exist, but by its laws and rules, they would be considered traitors, its about perspective, we as great all seeing beings looking into the 40k universe know that they are not, but we have seen what they have done and can go "damn.... good thing people dont know just how evil things have to get just to protect them"

Its the grey Knights anonymity that protects them from the over zealous Imperium that they in turn protect, if they become public knowledge all that would be seen is a grey space marine chapter that uses forbiddon tech, rituals, chaos weaponry, sorcery and they would be under extreme suspicion instantly and if their full history came out.... excomunication would be a certainty.

You dont get to murder sister of battle and use their blood in a chaos ritual and claim to be the good guys, the Imperium would only see the Heresy and not give a damn about the good that came of it, as we have seen time and time again....

pm713 wrote:
Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried...

All because he was trying to do the right thing. He did all of that stuff because he genuinely thought he was helping the Imperium by doing it. That makes him guilty of being arrogant, it makes him guilty of being a fool, it makes him guilty of being taken advantage of by chaos, but it does not make him guilty of being a traitor. As I said, Magnus probably did more damage to the Imperium on ACCIDENT than any single heretic astartes ever did intentionally, including Horus. But, it still doesn't make him a traitor. What matters is intent behind the action, not the action itself.

pm713 wrote:
Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.

Which is where I can agree with you. At the end of the battle of Prospero, both Magnus and his legion fell to chaos, bargaining their lives for service to Tzeench.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried...

All because he was trying to do the right thing. He did all of that stuff because he genuinely thought he was helping the Imperium by doing it. That makes him guilty of being arrogant, it makes him guilty of being a fool, it makes him guilty of being taken advantage of by chaos, but it does not make him guilty of being a traitor. As I said, Magnus probably did more damage to the Imperium on ACCIDENT than any single heretic astartes ever did intentionally, including Horus. But, it still doesn't make him a traitor. What matters is intent behind the action, not the action itself.

pm713 wrote:
Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.

Which is where I can agree with you. At the end of the battle of Prospero, both Magnus and his legion fell to chaos, bargaining their lives for service to Tzeench.

I didnt get that impression from Crimson King, I got the impression that it was

Prospero -------------------------------------------------------------------------> unknown time passes on planet of sorcerors where some fall, others dont, but still not "chaos" as a legion -----------------> Chaos legion------------ Rubric

 Formosa wrote:

I didnt get that impression from Crimson King, I got the impression that it was

Prospero -------------------------------------------------------------------------> unknown time passes on planet of sorcerors where some fall, others dont, but still not "chaos" as a legion -----------------> Chaos legion------------ Rubric

I always thought that Magnus finally gave in and accepted Chaos into his soul and agreed to serve Tzeench in order to complete his teleportation spell, and even at that the strain of pulling it off shattered his soul. I could be wrong though.

Regardless, his legion no longer had warm and fluffy feelings toward the Imperium at that point, considering that the same Imperium basically exterminatused their home planet and tried to ruthlessly murder them all. I think it's safe to say most of them were traitors at that point or had at least renounced the Imperium, which is basically the same thing.