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But what would Russ think about the 13th legion and the wolf mounted marines ? I can't imagine him being ok with that.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No danger of that, it’s bascially one sentence that Russ says he regrets what he did and being manipulated by Horus, but it needed to be done, he also gets confronted about using psykers and uses the same BS excuse “power from fenris”

Ah ok, people were making it seem like the fluff behind Russ being a huge douche was changed somewhat. Glad to see that Russ is still good old Russ for the most part aside from a few moments of mature introspection. I liked the old version of Russ better anyway, he was deliciously flawed.

Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.

Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.

That seems dumb. Magnus wanting revenge is justified but he did that in the Battle of the Fang. The whole invade and destroy multiple planets thing seems like just overdoing it. I think it's a very....basic revenge for someone like Magnus as well.

Ok bare with me dude, as I am working off memory, Spoiler for those who havent read it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.

Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.

 Formosa wrote:
Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.

Well, Curze was destined to fall. As for Angron, the instant the emperor teleported him away from the battle on his homeworld he was doomed to fall. The emperor forced him to watch his friends/family/troops die and prevented him from helping, which Angron never forgave the emperor for, or himself. It broke him completely. Magnus' fall wasn't really his fault either, it was masterminded by Tzeench himself. Horus was turned to chaos by evil space magic. Fulgrim was possessed by a demon hiding in a sword. Alpharius turned because he honestly believed that by turning, he would be helping to destroy chaos in the long run.

The only Primarchs who fell to chaos purely due to their own character flaws were Perturabo, Mortarion, and Lorgar. Although the emperor being a douche towards all three at various times didn't help things.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.

Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.

How do you figure that he'd be happy?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.

Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.

How do you figure that he'd be happy?

10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.

Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.

How do you figure that he'd be happy?

10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.

dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time

 Frazzled wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.

Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.

How do you figure that he'd be happy?

10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.

9,300. They've been do gooders since Grimnar took over.

BrianDavion wrote:
dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time

He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time

He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.

He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Alpharius returns "I am Alpharius".

Marine. "Welcome Alpharius, I am Alpharius".

Alpharius "No I am the real Alpharius".

Marine "So am I"

so on and so forth....

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time

He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.

He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?

The HH novels are pretty consistant that the whole crude barbarian thing is a play act

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?

Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.

I'd also like to point out that Russ is the only Primarch the Emperor had to physically discipline.

By LITERALLY knocking him out with a punch. I mean, you have to be a little bit special (in the bad sense) for that to happen...

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'd also like to point out that Russ is the only Primarch the Emperor had to physically discipline.

By LITERALLY knocking him out with a punch. I mean, you have to be a little bit special (in the bad sense) for that to happen...

Nothing special about it, rather simple actually. The Emperor had to prove that he was Russ' alpha meaning he had to beat Russ personally. Had he stomped the Fenrisians with military might he would have had another Angron. Had he sent Horus to beat Russ into submission then Horus would have been Russ' alpha and Russ would have followed Horus who followed the Emperor but not followed the Emperor himself. Had he shown up in a blaze of glory the Fenrisians would have believed him a monster, and died for glory rather than bow to him.
Considering the Emperor's success rate with recruiting loyal primarchs he was rather lucky that he read Russ correctly.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'd also like to point out that Russ is the only Primarch the Emperor had to physically discipline.

By LITERALLY knocking him out with a punch. I mean, you have to be a little bit special (in the bad sense) for that to happen...

umm that wasn't physically disiplining him, that was compeiting with him in a challange.

w1zard wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?

Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.

Yeah, I'm sure some of the elite warriors of the Imperium who have a computer downloaded into their brains can't read. Citation needed.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.

Well, Curze was destined to fall. As for Angron, the instant the emperor teleported him away from the battle on his homeworld he was doomed to fall. The emperor forced him to watch his friends/family/troops die and prevented him from helping, which Angron never forgave the emperor for, or himself. It broke him completely. Magnus' fall wasn't really his fault either, it was masterminded by Tzeench himself. Horus was turned to chaos by evil space magic. Fulgrim was possessed by a demon hiding in a sword. Alpharius turned because he honestly believed that by turning, he would be helping to destroy chaos in the long run.

The only Primarchs who fell to chaos purely due to their own character flaws were Perturabo, Mortarion, and Lorgar. Although the emperor being a douche towards all three at various times didn't help things.

Ergh thats all so basic.....


Heres my take on it, and just to be clear because some on Dakka really have trouble telling the difference between someones opinion, which may differ and stating something as a catagorical fact, this is my OPINION or INTERPRETATION, that being said, on with the show

Angron: Yep being whisked away was a large factor, but not the only factor, he was damned the second the nails were hammered into him, not being able to sleep (and yes ive read wolfbane now and primarchs do need sleep) caused several psychosis to manifest, paranoia, anger issues, bipolar disorder etc. for the most part he could focus his issues and vent with his brothers and sisters against the rulers of nuceria, but then he gets whisked away by the Emperor, this further compounds his damaged psyche to such an extent that he sufferes from PTSD or Survivors guilt as he has never been taught any coping mechanisms (that we naturally learn growing up) he simply does not know any other way to express his mental issues, other than anger and rage, something the nails encourage... poor sod.

Curze: Is very similar to Angron in that he never actually learned how to be civilised, his way of controlling his enviroment were the products of his envirioment, even when he got to learn from the imperium it was already too late, his formative years had already made him the man he was, so cursed with terrible visions, steeped in fear and hatred from other humans, he was never going to be a normal person, take him from Nostramo and put him on Macragge, he would have been a very different person... which i suppose it kind of the point.

Magnus: It was always Magnus fault he fell, he had all the opertunities to change his path, but he thought he knew best, for Tzeench to get his claws in Magnus at one point had to say "yes" but because he thought himself the master of the warp he took that power and believed he would face no consequences, he was wrong, he also harboured the most powerful deamon we have ever seen in the 40k universe "shaytan", that was his first step on the path of damnation, but why did he do all of this, simple, he was also a product of his upbringing, knowledge, prosperos culture was all about the pursuit of knowledge.... Magnus is responsible for his own actions more than any other person on this list, he was warned... he knew and he CHOSE to ignore those warning. I ignore the Edict as it was designed to set him up to fail.

Horus: Horus was not turned by space magic, thats far too simplistic, that was just the worm that got into his head, the thing that brought all his doubts and fears to the for, these things already existed within him, and elevating him to Warmaster, putting resposability on him that he believed he was not worthy of, well that also increased his self doubt, so all those visions he was shown, well, he sees a future where he is not present, why? did he fail? or is it another reason?

And thats how chaos gets you, that little seed of doubt, thing with Horus was that seed was a tree by the time Chaos got to him, also throw in that Horus was an amazing stratagist, he would have seen the orders from Terra placing certain legions in certain places, he would have worked out that the Primarchs were all made for certain conflicting reasons, and those reasons would naturally produced conflict in them, possibly leading to outright war, he wasnt a fool, so he likely knew that a Rebellion would happen eventually (the legions were already preparing for it, against the mechanicus though), so when Chaos lifted the veil from His eyes all that psychic moulding that the Emperor has done to all the primarchs was lifted, so Horus saw the Emperors plan for what it truelly was, the death of the primarchs and legions eventually, so he felt betrayed by the Emperor.

Ergh... too much writing, i will come back to this or start a new thread lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?

Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.

Yeah, I'm sure some of the elite warriors of the Imperium who have a computer downloaded into their brains can't read. Citation needed.

Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.

(the legions were already preparing for it, against the mechanicus though)

Care to elaborate ? I have never read about that anywhere, but it sounds interresting

 Formosa wrote:
Ergh thats all so basic.....

Yeah, my basic explanation didn't do what actually happened justice, but i stand by what I said. Only three of the traitor primarchs, fell PURELY through their own character flaws instead of being pushed or "assisted" by chaos. Horus never would have fallen if it wasn't for getting stabbed by the athame, angron wouldn't have fallen if not for the butcher's nails and the slaughter at desh'elika ridge, fulgrim wouldn't have fallen if he hadn't been possessed by that demon etc... That is not to say their personal flaws didn't help them along, but they weren't the PRIMARY reason for their falls.

Agree to disagree on Magnus. Magnus certainly was arrogant, he broke the emperor's rules, and dabbled in things he shouldn't have. However, he was being strung along the entire time, pushed, prodded, and manipulated by Tzeench himself. Magnus only did what he did because he had the best intentions and wanted to help the Imperium. He was played HARD, because Tzeench took those good intentions and twisted them against Magnus from the very beginning. I would argue that Magnus was as doomed to fall as Cruze as soon as he drew the attention of the ruinous powers. But even at that Magnus remained loyal until the bitter end. He deactivated the defenses around Prospero so the wolves could land unopposed. He refused to participate for most of the battle because he felt his fate was richly deserved. It was only after he realized that his legion shouldn't suffer death for his mistake did he start fighting back in order to teleport them away. Even at the end, he fully intended to stay behind and let Russ kill him because that is what he felt he deserved, until Tzeench said "no you don't, I'm not done with you yet" and teleported him away, denying Magnus from even dying. No, Magnus didn't fall because he was arrogant or too curious for his own good (he certainly was those), he fell because Tzeench owned him hard.

If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.

I honestly forget which book it was, but it was the scene where Russ meets the Lion for the first time and the Lion is reading the book under the tree. Russ flat out tells Johnson he can't read. So unless Russ was lying...

As for the space wolves themselves...

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Conditioning

Nothing in there states that they are taught how to read or any other scholarly skill. They are certainly taught how to operate their equipment and how to speak low gothic, but neither of those requires the ability to read. I can speak passable amount of Russian because one of my best friends speaks it as a primary language, but ask me to read or spell anything in it and you are completely out of luck. I don't even understand the basic alphabet.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fenris under Fenrisian culture.

Space Wolves themselves are recruited purely from Fenris. Fenrisian has no written language, and all of their culture is passed down through oral tradition. Therefore, none of the space wolves know how to read upon induction into the space marines, and it is unlikely that they ever would learn because it is NOT a part of the process for creating a space marine. This would seem to mesh with the portrayal of the space wolves as being disdainful at best, and downright hostile at worst towards any kind of scholarly pursuit outside of being a rune priest.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rune_Priest

The space wolves did not have any kind of written history of their chapter. All information was passed down by rune priests and disseminated to the space wolves through story and song. Rune priests would pass this knowledge to each other, down through the generations to ensure that knowledge was not lost.

In all of the 40k books I've ever read, nothing at all has indicated to me that the space wolves were anything but Fenrisian in culture and in deed, including all of the limitations and shortcomings that came with that, including illiteracy. In fact, quite the opposite, it was both heavily implied (and in Russ' case outright stated) that space wolves were illiterate outside of Fenrisian runes.

Now... that is not to say that they were unintelligent. An astartes is as quick mentally as they are physically, and were most likely an order of magnitude more intelligent than an unaugmented human. But they were unlearned as hell and proud of it.

Engrenages wrote:

(the legions were already preparing for it, against the mechanicus though)

Care to elaborate ? I have never read about that anywhere, but it sounds interresting

Go read the Blurb on the Leviathan dread in the HH legions book, and then read the blurb on the .... giant robot? cant remember its name, anyway, the Leviathan was a direct response to the mechanicum mass producing Thanatars IRRC, which itself was a Automata designed to kill space marines, both were engaging in an arms race

pm713 wrote:
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.

I honestly forget which book it was, but it was the scene where Russ meets the Lion for the first time and the Lion is reading the book under the tree. Russ flat out tells Johnson he can't read. So unless Russ was lying...

As for the space wolves themselves...

Source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Conditioning

Nothing in there states that they are taught how to read or any other scholarly skill. They are certainly taught how to operate their equipment and how to speak low gothic, but neither of those requires the ability to read. I can speak passable amount of Russian because one of my best friends speaks it as a primary language, but ask me to read or spell anything in it and you are completely out of luck. I don't even understand the basic alphabet.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fenris under Fenrisian culture.

Space Wolves themselves are recruited purely from Fenris. Fenrisian has no written language, and all of their culture is passed down through oral tradition. Therefore, none of the space wolves know how to read upon induction into the space marines, and it is unlikely that they ever would learn because it is NOT a part of the process for creating a space marine. This would seem to mesh with the portrayal of the space wolves as being disdainful at best, and downright hostile at worst towards any kind of scholarly pursuit outside of being a rune priest.

Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rune_Priest

The space wolves did not have any kind of written history of their chapter. All information was passed down by rune priests and disseminated to the space wolves through story and song. Rune priests would pass this knowledge to each other, down through the generations to ensure that knowledge was not lost.

In all of the 40k books I've ever read, nothing at all has indicated to me that the space wolves were anything but Fenrisian in culture and in deed, including all of the limitations and shortcomings that came with that, including illiteracy. In fact, quite the opposite, it was both heavily implied (and in Russ' case outright stated) that space wolves were illiterate outside of Fenrisian runes.

Now... that is not to say that they were unintelligent. An astartes is as quick mentally as they are physically, and were most likely an order of magnitude more intelligent than an unaugmented human. But they were unlearned as hell and proud of it.

Sorry mate Lexi is not a great source of fluff, it misses out a lot and adds a lot of conjecture too

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.

Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.

While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.

Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.

While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.

Read Crimson King and A Thousand Sons. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.

Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.

Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.

Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.

Editing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.

Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.

While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.

Read Crimson King. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.

Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.

Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.

Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.

Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?

 Formosa wrote:
Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?

Russ thought that one of his men, Kasper Ansbach Hawser was actually a spy for Magnus. He thought this because he was told so by a warp entity. He was actually a chaos agent. Russ passed the surrender demand to Hawser, expecting that it would reach Magnus, but Hawser obviously doesn't do it. You realize that the warp entity that told Russ that Hawser was a 1k Sons plant was most likely Tzeench himself, or a demon under Tzeench's command and that Tzeench planned for this all to happen years in advance. It is never outright stated, but it is heavily implied. Just as planned.

As for Tzeench being the mastermind behind everything. Magnus realizes during the fight with Russ that EVERYTHING had been set up perfectly, and that he had been outplayed hard and used as a tool to destroy the emperor's webway project. Everything was just too neat, and this was obviously the design of the changer of ways. Tzeench teleporting Magnus away before he can be killed kind of confirms Magnus' suspicions.

EDIT: It may not have been Crimson King, but possibly A Thousand Sons? Honestly, there are so many 40k book they all kind of blur together.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.

Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.

Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.

While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.

Read Crimson King and A Thousand Sons. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.

Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.

Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.

Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.

But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.