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w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time

He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.

There is no evidence that Russ is illiterate.

And he knows that Rune Priests are psykers as proven in Wolfsbane but as he himself admitted is somewhat of a hpocrite about it.

 Formosa wrote:
I am not saying that smudgey boy.

"by the rules of the Imperium" But they dont play by the rules of the imperium and the imperium at large doesnt know they exist, but by its laws and rules, they would be considered traitors, its about perspective, we as great all seeing beings looking into the 40k universe know that they are not, but we have seen what they have done and can go "damn.... good thing people dont know just how evil things have to get just to protect them"

No, they do play by the rules of the Imperium. The rules of the Imperium can effectively be summed up to "do what the Emperor tasked me to do".

For your normal civilians, that's "don't ask questions, hate Chaos, don't do anything heretical, don't use Chaos tech/Xeno-tech etc etc, do your duty to the God Emperor, etc etc"
For Grey Knights, their rules are "combat Chaos by any mean possible". Their rules and permissions are different to everyone else, and thus do not break any laws, because said laws don't apply to them.

You're mixing up MORAL greyness and LEGAL greyness. The Grey Knights are Morally Grey. No doubt about that. That's exactly what your point about perspective is in relation to, and it's right.

LEGAL greyness is different. Given how the Imperium is so seperated in terms of task and duty, there's not really much in the way of complete rules and legalities. Sure, there's some concrete ones, "serve the Emperor, abhor the alien/mutant/heretic, etc etc", but the "restriction" on using alien tech, or chaos rituals isn't an overarching rule. It's a rule which affects most of the Imperium, yes, but the Grey Knights and certain others are exempt from that rule. They have a mandate from the Emperor himself to do just that. They have the permission of the HLOT to do that. They have permission from the Inquisition to do that.

Legally, the Grey Knights are completely able to do what they do. To suggest otherwise would be nullifying the Emperor's own rules, which in turn would mean that you're breaking the LEGAL rule on "serve the Emperor".

Its the grey Knights anonymity that protects them from the over zealous Imperium that they in turn protect, if they become public knowledge all that would be seen is a grey space marine chapter that uses forbiddon tech, rituals, chaos weaponry, sorcery and they would be under extreme suspicion instantly and if their full history came out.... excomunication would be a certainty.

The Inquisition, HLOT and the Emperor know what the Grey Knights do. They are the LEGAL authority in the Imperium, and have no issue with it.

Legally, the Grey Knights have all rights to do what they do. What some jumped up planetary governor, or Space Marine Chapter Master says isn't the overriding authority on the matter. They can be MORALLY opposed to it, they can see it as morally wrong/grey, but legally, the Grey Knights are protected by the will of the Emperor himself.

You dont get to murder sister of battle and use their blood in a chaos ritual and claim to be the good guys, the Imperium would only see the Heresy and not give a damn about the good that came of it, as we have seen time and time again....

The Imperium's head of state (the Emperor/HLOT/Inquisition) support the Grey Knights and give them the authority to do exactly what they do. It can't be heresy if you're doing what the Emperor has told you to do.

It's why Guilliman LEGALLY isn't a heretic. He has explicit permission from the Emperor to do what he's doing. He can be called morally grey for what he's doing and done, but legally, he's indefensible. The Grey Knights are the same. They have authority from the Emperor to do what they do, and the governing body of the Imperium support this authority. Whatever anyone else says isn't the law.

You're confusing the general populace of the Imperium with the governing body of it. The governing body are the ones who make the laws and rules. They're fine with it. The general masses? They don't make the rules. Whatever issue they would have is a moral one, not a legal one.

It's the same as a search warrant.
I can't break into someone's house and search their possessions legally.
A police officer, with a warrant to do so granted by the government, can break into a house and search their possessions.

According to you, that police officer is breaking the law. That's clearly not true.

Now take this back to 40k.
I, as a hypothetical Space Marine Captain or Imperial Guard commander, can't dabble in Chaos/Xeno-Tech legally.
A Grey Knight Captain, with the warrant to do so granted by the Emperor, can dabble in Chaos/Xeno-Tech legally.


Your point about claiming to be the "good guys" is mixing up the definitions of "good" and implying that following the rules is something only good people do.
No-one's saying the Grey Knights are GOOD. Good is a moral construct, and as I said above, the Grey Knights are morally grey. That's true.
However, the Grey Knights are most certainly LAWFUL. They're following the rules that they have been allowed to follow by the Emperor.

The people who do kick up a fuss about what the Grey Knights do are often the kinds of people who are more morally centred and less lawfully centred - ie the Space Wolves.

Or, to put in D&D alignment terms:
Grey Knights - Lawful Neutral
Space Wolves - Neutral/Chaotic Good

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.

I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.

To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.

Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.

It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.

Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.

That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.

Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.

Not really.

Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.

However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.

The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.

Plotting to assassinate an Inquisitor sounds like a traitors plan to me.

Well, lets also not forget, in the Space Wolves eyes, they are not obligated to be loyal to the High Lords of Terra, the Inquisition, or even the Imperium. They swore loyalty to The Emperor and Leman Russ and as far as they are concerned they will act in their name as they see fit.

pm713 wrote:
Plotting to assassinate an Inquisitor sounds like a traitors plan to me.

Firstly, Formosa never mentions this. Formosa seems to imply that the main "traitor" thing the GK do is kill Imperial civilians, Sisters, and use Chaos rituals - which is well within their authority to do.

Secondly, if that Inquisitor is deemed a threat to the Imperium, then the Grey Knights tie with the Inquisitor in authority. At this point, it becomes might makes right, and the Inquisitor is probably going to be dead.

It's the same way conflict in the Inquisition itself is solved. Both factions have their authority provided by the Rosette, but they need to be able to convince others, sometimes with force, that they are correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well, lets also not forget, in the Space Wolves eyes, they are not obligated to be loyal to the High Lords of Terra, the Inquisition, or even the Imperium. They swore loyalty to The Emperor and Leman Russ and as far as they are concerned they will act in their name as they see fit.

The HLOT are treated as the voice of the Emperor. Guilliman is now the Regent of the Imperium. They all have the same authority as the Emperor, and if the Space Wolves don't respect that, then the Inquisition and HLOT have every right to sanction them.

However, enforcing that is the hard part.*



*It doesn't help the Space Wolves have some of the thickest 40k plot armour that renders them immune from any kind of repercussion for their blatant disregard of Imperial authority.

If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

That's not correct. The existence of the Space Wolves predates Russ. They were always loyal to the Emperor and then to their Primarch as well. They follow their honour system which is loyalty to their Lord, Chapter Master, Primarch and Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.

It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.

godking wrote:
There is no evidence that Russ is illiterate.

And he knows that Rune Priests are psykers as proven in Wolfsbane but as he himself admitted is somewhat of a hpocrite about it.

If I'm remembering correctly, Russ flat out tells the Lion he can't read. I mean, I suppose you can make the argument he is just talking gak and playing the whole "I'm a barbarian, ooga booga" angle to lull people into underestimating him, but how do you know he isn't telling the truth?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

I'm with you Smudge, I wouldn't call the space wolves traitors, because they are still loyal to the Imperium in their mind and beliefs and are doing what THEY think is right and to the benefit of mankind. However, to claim that the 1k Sons were traitors (pre heresy) for doing the same thing, but that the Space Wolves are somehow different is ridiculous.

HLOT = Inquisition = Emperor... the HLOT and Inquistion speak with the authority of the emperor himself because they have been mandated to in the emperor's absence. Power struggles among the inquisiton and HLOT are might makes right, but anyone below them definitely doesn't have a right to argue.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.

It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.

That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

pm713 wrote:
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.

Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?

Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.

Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?

And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.

The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.

Not to mention SW using xenos in their forces (sentient/semi-sentient xeno wolves of Fenris, ie fenrisian wolves, thunderwolves etc)

pm713 wrote:

And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.

The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.

As I've said, I completely agree with you. I do not think the space wolves are traitors for defying the inquisition. Imperial law is a patchwork mess of conflicting rulings that are applied unevenly (kind of like IRL).

However to claim that the (pre heresy) 1k Sons were traitors for violating the ruling at Nikaea ignores the fact that pretty much every Imperial institution also does the same thing (with the exception of fringe groups like the BT). To claim that any group are traitors for simply violating rules is utterly ridiculous.

The true measure for deciding someone is a traitor or if they are loyal is their intentions. Are they fighting for the Imperium, are they doing what they are doing for the benefit of mankind? If yes, they are loyal, however misguided their actions might be. If they are fighting for themselves, fighting to increase their own power or that of chaos? They are traitors. You could actually technically make an argument that modern Dark Angels are actually traitors because they have killed loyal Imperials to protect their chapter's secrets, which is to the detriment of the Imperium as a whole to purely serve their own self interest.

This is different to the Grey Knights whose "crimes" are done purely to combat chaos and keep the Imperium safe. Again, it is about intent.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.

What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.

The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.

It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.

That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.

It's not a matter of debate. Official Imperial law supports the existence of these sanctioned abhumans.

If there's a fringe group out there which wants them dead, they're not representing the official Imperial policy.

The Edict of Nikaea was, to my knowledge, overruled when Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium after the Heresy. We know that he gave the order to remove it after the Battle of Calth, and I imagine he'd give the same order when he commanded the Imperium. Before anyone says "that's not the Emperor though so it doesn't count as official", Guilliman was acting with all powers of the Emperor. He had authority to do so.

Yes, the Imperium has some contradictory laws, and there is often certain rules in one place that contradict others. However, the OFFICIAL stance, which is the one that is used for the sake of these "higher up" politics (ie, between Sector Governors, Chapter Masters, Inquisitors, HLOT, etc etc) is the one that matters.

Northern85Star wrote:Not to mention SW using xenos in their forces (sentient/semi-sentient xeno wolves of Fenris, ie fenrisian wolves, thunderwolves etc)

The Emperor sanctioned that. He didn't sanction Wulfen.

The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

To my understanding this is not true. The wulfen are a result of the flaws of space wolf DNA triggering out of control mutations due to being exposed to uncontrolled warp energy.

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.

If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.

The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.

As I've said, I completely agree with you. I do not think the space wolves are traitors for defying the inquisition. Imperial law is a patchwork mess of conflicting rulings that are applied unevenly (kind of like IRL).

However to claim that the (pre heresy) 1k Sons were traitors for violating the ruling at Nikaea ignores the fact that pretty much every Imperial institution also does the same thing (with the exception of fringe groups like the BT). To claim that any group are traitors for simply violating rules is utterly ridiculous.

The true measure for deciding someone is a traitor or if they are loyal is their intentions. Are they fighting for the Imperium, are they doing what they are doing for the benefit of mankind? If yes, they are loyal, however misguided their actions might be. If they are fighting for themselves, fighting to increase their own power or that of chaos? They are traitors. You could actually technically make an argument that modern Dark Angels are actually traitors because they have killed loyal Imperials to protect their chapter's secrets, which is to the detriment of the Imperium as a whole to purely serve their own self interest.

This is different to the Grey Knights whose "crimes" are done purely to combat chaos and keep the Imperium safe. Again, it is about intent.

Saying the 1k Sons were Traitors over Nikaea = All the Legions are is gross simplification. In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much. The fact that they meant well doesn't excuse them and I don't see why you think it does. The Thousands Sons Legion are all traitors because they were all chill with Chaos and using their powers to the point of mutation. Other Legions had individual traitors who got forgiven for it because of the circumstances and bit of luck.

There's a different between traitor and chaos you know. Traitors are basically the criminals of the Imperium which includes people like Lorgar who went all in on Chaos but also people like the Blood Knights who are renegades but consider themselves loyal.

The Inner Circle do what they do with the sincere belief that it's for the best for the Imperium. They're still guilty enough to be labelled traitors even if they'd argue against it. Like the Heresy Thousand Sons.

The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.

If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?

Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.

Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.

Well this thread has jump the tracks

pm713 wrote:The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.

The Grey Knights planned to do it because the Inquisitor himself was overstepping over what he could enforce and justify. Given that the Grey Knights have the authority to do so, that's fine.

The Grey Knights are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that do get to rule-break, mostly because those rules simply don't apply to the Grey Knights. You're holding them to a standard that they're not supposed to be held to.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.

If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?

Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.

The Canis Helix was designed by the Emperor, but the Curse of the Wulfen is a mutation of that. It's not indicated to be an intentional effect.

Similar instances of this are the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels - Sanguinius strongly believed that the Emperor would not approve - and yet the Emperor created that geneseed. It it logical, then, to assume that there are flaws in the geneseed of various Chapters that the Emperor did not expect or plan for.

So yeah, sure, the Emperor created their geneseed, but I don't see where it suggests the Wulfen were intentional.

Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.

However, LEGALLY, the Inquisition are the authority in this matter. If they say so, it is law.

Plus, the Imperium doesn't always punish worlds that don't see the Emperor as a God. The Ecclesiarchy might, but it is not a unanimous law in the Imperium that he is worshipped as a god. Again, as I said, some laws don't apply to certain people - worshipping the Emperor as a god does not apply to the Legiones Astartes, Custodes, or even the Inquisition, I believe. The Mechanicum have alternative views too. Sure, the Ecclesiarchy can try and enforce the belief on these groups, creating a "might makes right" situation, but legally, they are not required to believe in the Emperor's divinity.

pm713 wrote:

In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much.

IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. How many times do I have to say it? The fact that the Thousand sons were entirely a psychic legion and doing crazy warp stuff, I agree is breaking the edict at Nikea. The fact that the Space Wolves continued to use rune priests, is also breaking the edict at Nikea. THEY ARE JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. The fact that one is a more blatant violation then another is IRRELEVANT, a broken rule is a broken rule. A person who murders one person, and a person who murders 12 are BOTH murderers.

pm713 wrote:
The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.

Including Space Wolves.

Your mentality seems to be "Well the Thousand Sons are traitors because the story says they are." Without doing much critical thinking about WHY.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much.

IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. How many times do I have to say it? The fact that the Thousand sons were entirely a psychic legion and doing crazy warp stuff, I agree is breaking the edict at Nikea. The fact that the Space Wolves continued to use rune priests, is also breaking the edict at Nikea. THEY ARE JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. The fact that one is a more blatant violation then another is IRRELEVANT, a broken rule is a broken rule. A person who murders one person, and a person who murders 12 are BOTH murderers.

pm713 wrote:
The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.

Including Space Wolves.

Your mentality seems to be "Well the Thousand Sons are traitors because the story says they are." Without doing much critical thinking about WHY.

They aren't at all. There's a huge difference between some people using Warp powers safely enough and USING CHAOS AND DEMONS AND DIRECTLY BARGAINING WITH TZEENTCH. That's a ridiculous comparison. One person killed someone who was trying to kill them and the other launched nuclear weapons onto a whole continent for the lolz.

Did I say the Wolves don't get a pass on some things because Marines? It's not uncommon.

You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?

pm713 wrote:

You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?

They dealt with chaos because they felt that it was the only way to save themselves, they caused millions of deaths and destroyed the future of humanity on ACCIDENT, they put spies everywhere because they (correctly) thought that the other legions would turn on them at the first opportunity.

Have you even read A Thousand Sons or Crimson King?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.

The Grey Knights planned to do it because the Inquisitor himself was overstepping over what he could enforce and justify. Given that the Grey Knights have the authority to do so, that's fine.

The Grey Knights are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that do get to rule-break, mostly because those rules simply don't apply to the Grey Knights. You're holding them to a standard that they're not supposed to be held to.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor MADE the Wulfen.

You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.

If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?

Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.

The Canis Helix was designed by the Emperor, but the Curse of the Wulfen is a mutation of that. It's not indicated to be an intentional effect.

Similar instances of this are the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels - Sanguinius strongly believed that the Emperor would not approve - and yet the Emperor created that geneseed. It it logical, then, to assume that there are flaws in the geneseed of various Chapters that the Emperor did not expect or plan for.

So yeah, sure, the Emperor created their geneseed, but I don't see where it suggests the Wulfen were intentional.

Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.

However, LEGALLY, the Inquisition are the authority in this matter. If they say so, it is law.

Plus, the Imperium doesn't always punish worlds that don't see the Emperor as a God. The Ecclesiarchy might, but it is not a unanimous law in the Imperium that he is worshipped as a god. Again, as I said, some laws don't apply to certain people - worshipping the Emperor as a god does not apply to the Legiones Astartes, Custodes, or even the Inquisition, I believe. The Mechanicum have alternative views too. Sure, the Ecclesiarchy can try and enforce the belief on these groups, creating a "might makes right" situation, but legally, they are not required to believe in the Emperor's divinity.

Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.

The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?

The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?

They dealt with chaos because they felt that it was the only way to save themselves, they caused millions of deaths and destroyed the future of humanity on ACCIDENT, they put spies everywhere because they (correctly) thought that the other legions would turn on them at the first opportunity.

Have you even read A Thousand Sons or Crimson King?

No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.

Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.

pm713 wrote:

No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.

Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.

If you are talking about Magnus sending the psychic message to the emperor, there was no time for a ship to fly to Terra. Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal ASAP and not risk interception or that the message wouldn't reach the emperor, he also didn't know who to trust. That really sounds like the actions of a traitor right?

A more accurate analogy would be a man who accidentally launches a whole bunch of ICBMs onto a continent and kills millions of people in a well intentioned effort to help vs a man who intentionally murders one person. I'd take the idiot over the murderer any day.

pm713 wrote:
Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.

How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.

The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.

However, the Wolves played their hand first.

The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?

How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?

If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.

Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?

It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.

The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.

The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.

The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.

The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.

Also, "the Space Wolves know more" - how?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.

Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.

If you are talking about Magnus sending the psychic message to the emperor, there was no time for a ship to fly to Terra. Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal ASAP and not risk interception or that the message wouldn't reach the emperor, he also didn't know who to trust. That really sounds like the actions of a traitor right?

A more accurate analogy would be a man who accidentally launches a whole bunch of ICBMs onto a continent and kills millions of people in a well intentioned effort to help vs a man who intentionally murders one person. I'd take the idiot over the murderer any day.[/quote
There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.

How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.

The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.

However, the Wolves played their hand first.

The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?

How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?

If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.

Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?

It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.

The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.

The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.

The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.

The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.

Also, "the Space Wolves know more" - how?

They don't and I haven't said the Grey Knights over the Custodes. What I was saying is that the Grey Knights don't have authority over the Inquisition. Nobody does except for Custodes in the Palace.

Exempt or not the Inquisition doesn't MAKE the rules and they don't have any claim to be the authority on gene seed.

The Space Wolf geneseed has the Canis Helix an additional component. All other gene-seeds have the same components. They give the same changes as each other. The Canis Helix was made, all the others weren't they're just mutations on the original hence why they're a potential problem. The Helix isn't because it isn't actually a mutation it was designed to be put there. It isn't a permanent change because while they make for good berserker fighters against enemies they aren't good soldiers. Braindead idiots are better than Marines in the way that they aren't smart enough to rebel but they're worse soldiers overall. Wulfen are the same - Better at a specific thing but worse overall.

It's called Curse because the individual undergoing the change effectively dies and it's pretty horrid morally but the Emperor has no reason to care about that. Agree to disagree. I think it's more logical something like that that comes from a specific geneseed component that was specially made for a task makes more sense rather than YET ANOTHER horrible mistake by the Emperor.

I think it's fair to say that after 10'000 years of experience the Wolves have more knowledge about their geneseed than the Inquisition.

pm713 wrote:
There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.

I'm usually pretty open to different people's interpretations of the lore, considering that most things are so subjective. The worst I will do is try to argue my side.

However, at this point I seriously have to call into question your knowledge of the lore and your bias. You are just flat out wrong. You are ascribing powers to Magnus beyond what he actually had. There was no way he could have just "teleported" to Terra considering that Terra had one of the most powerful psychic defense networks in existence. The idea that Magnus could somehow access the webway that he had no knowledge existed because the Emperor kept it a secret from him is bunk. You cannot use psychic powers to "speed up" warp travel unless you can affect the currents of the warp itself, which is outside of even the Emperor's capabilities. There was no way he could have just snapped his fingers and made the wolves stop the burning of Prospero once Russ decided he wanted blood.

Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal, and there was only one way that Magnus knew of that could both reach the emperor on time, and have 0 chance of being intercepted, and that was to contact the emperor directly. He knew he was breaking the rules, but he thought the very fate of the Imperium itself was at stake. So he broke the rules, fully willing to accept the punishment that came with it so long as the Emperor was warned about Horus. Little did Magnus know something MUCH worse would happen.

I'm going to end the discussion here because it seems that our interpretations of the lore are completely incompatible with each other. For what it is worth, I'm not even a thousand sons fanboy, my favorite traitors are actually the IW. But you seem to have a massive bias towards the space wolves.