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tneva82 wrote:

Reemule wrote:

I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.

I think you are overestimating odds of killing him. It's less than 50% chance to kill 4 wound character and odds just drop with W4. Average output is 2 wounds so 2 missiles won't even in average kill ahriman...Oh and knights are often short of CP's so 4CP for not even killing W5 character is expensive.

Those missiles aren't bad but they aren't super weapons either. About best use for them are W4 characters and you desperately need raven strategem and possibly command reroll even then to make it reliable enough to plan for.

No your right. Its a pretty low chance of a single shot. But on the other hand, it is extremely likely that it does several damage. Some days a farseer with a couple wounds running away is about as good as a dead farseer no?

I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.

I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.

Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down

 Larks wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

Anticipating the tournament meta is a skill, too. Sometimes you've just got to roll the dice (pun unabashedly intended)

Ha! A most perfect response. Absolutely dodging a match is a way to win it! There really isn't many ways to bring that single force that can deal with both extremes.

I do feel though that the overwhelming majority of the Horde forces bent the meta. At this moment knights seem to be bending it back. I'm hoping this continues. If your going to a event where you have to have a knight plan some of these forces out there are going to see a sea change in how they are played. Early in this thread i linked the top 16 thread from adepticon. A mere 3 months ago. Now that was before the FAQ changes, but just looking at them, with the new releases, I'm not sure many of those forces are in the meta chase at all anymore.

And maybe that is the ultimate value of the knights.

Gitdakka wrote:
I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.

I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.

Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down

This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.

The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.

Ice_can wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.

I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.

Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down

This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.

The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.

Those are still all fairly great for relics and warlprd traits imo. Even if they only effect a few models.

Ice_can wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.

I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.

Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down

This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.

The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.

All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.

Now if the knights are OP i could not really tell as my BT are underpowered and it was also my first game against the knight codex. But as I said it initially feels unfair with such good saves on the big-gun-knight regardless of the source of those saves. I had fun during the game though. I dunno how I can change my list to better manage such beasts while still playing templars but I'm sure I can adapt in time.


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Also free warlordbuffs has way more impact on the game if applied to the biggest knight compared to if applied to a marine captain with lightning claws.

I'm not saying that they aren't good but given that represents a pregame spend of 1 or 2 CP from a total knight only 9 CP, that would be starting the game with 7/8 CP 2 turns of 3++ and knights would be out of CP.
Its the 180 Points CP farm that really allows the strategums to be spammed and keep the power strategums flowing. Knights are much like custodes. They are a tough army but acess to cheap CP takes them to the next level.
Unfortunately marines right now don't have an answer to that but all the eldars, Tau Crons and guard can give them a hard time.

Looks like you faced a decent Knight list with as you said an underpowered Templars list. Without knowing the details of that list i would proxy in more Las\Melta and maybe a Storm Raven or two in your list and do a rematch to test if it can be successful, otherwise soup might be the answer.

 Xenomancers wrote:
40k is always decided by who goes first.

I am happy to say thanks to the absolute nature of your statement I have many counter-examples

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
40k is always decided by who goes first.

I am happy to say thanks to the absolute nature of your statement I have many counter-examples

Indeed. If its always decided first turn then i guess SM dont need a new codex, right Xeno?

I think knights are strong and honestly close to right where they need to be.

I'd be okay with making it so rotate ion shields can only boost an invul to a 4++, as a 3++ is boarderline too good IMO. But otherwise things seem fine.

What isn't fine is half of the other armies ability to deal with knights, but that isn't exactly the knights fault. Nerfing knights to make them equal to the bad armies would just make them trash vs the good armies, and that doesn't help things.

Doesn't that forgeworld knight (atrapos sp?) get to bump it's invuln down to 3++ with 1 CP?

Either way they are a list based around spam at the same time GW seems to be trying to reduce spam (rule of 3). I hope it changes the meta but it just seems like they'll be another part of imperial soup (that I need a damned airbush to paint) or a gatekeeper list.

Lets make sure people understand that 3++ saves are pretty limited. It took your Warlord trait, a CP, (Or 3 CP if Dominus Class) and its still only against shooting.

There seems to be a great many times where the 2+ Heirloom save might make more sense as it will give you a that 5+ against those so many things even in HTH.

I think it's pretty clearly the best warlord trait for a single knight, and something that will be included in every multi knight list.

You can also take it and the 2+.

Ion shields is really powerful, but it has a lot of counterplay; particularly with all Knight lists. You just need to make sure to threaten more than one knight and you reduce a ton of value from the strat.

Imperial Guard are still winning GTs. I believe the Boise GT that was won last year with Ravenspam was won this year by pure IG with a Shadowsword.

Bottom line, IG might not win every event but that isn't because they aren't top tier, it's because other armies are also emerging as good. IG are STILL top tier. Knights are not top tier. You can imperium soup and make them stronger, but again, you'll struggle against armies that can control the board and win on objectives.

Of course if you're not playing ITC then yeah, they're OP when the 3++ works, and they're not when it doesn't. Simple really.

Gitdakka wrote:

All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.

I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait and thus he would not be able to take the knight warlord trait with Grand Strategist and vice-versa. Also Kurov's Aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.

w1zard wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.

I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.

No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.

Ice_can wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.

I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.

No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.

Yeah, he said his opponent was running a knight with the warlord trait that grants him 4++, AND an Imperial guard officer with the grand strategist warlord trait... which is illegal. Also apparently multiple copies of Kurov's Aquila?

Imperial knights can have 1 warlord and 2 additional models witg warlord traits via strategum.
Or yoy can have an Imperial guard warlord and still have 2 knights with warlord traits for 3 CP which it sounds like he did.

One guard commander had the aquilla relic. The other had the grand strategist warlord trait. Then the knights had one warlord trait and at least one relic.

Btw we played itc and it did not help me at all. I maxed titan slayer, but only got one other secondary point for recon. Many of the itc secondaries were impossible. The mission was the short side against short side deploy so there was no room to spread out and attack. I played a staggered defense from the front line to the rear of my deployment, but it was not nearly enough.

In retrospect I think assult terminators could have heped, with their hammers and shields.

Gitdakka wrote:
One guard commander had the aquilla relic. The other had the grand strategist warlord trait. Then the knights had one warlord trait and at least one relic.

Btw we played itc and it did not help me at all. I maxed titan slayer, but only got one other secondary point for recon. Many of the itc secondaries were impossible. The mission was the short side against short side deploy so there was no room to spread out and attack. I played a staggered defense from the front line to the rear of my deployment, but it was not nearly enough.

In retrospect I think assult terminators could have leped, with their hammers and shields.

He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.

The problem with terminators is that a knight will just walk away from them if they don't make that charge out of deepstrike, so turn 2 drop earliest, not to mention they are currently points costed like they are made of unobtainum and only hit on 4+

Now picturing short legged Terminators struggling to keep up as a huge Knight strides away from them.

"Keep up little buddy!"

That wont be as big of an issue as I have my land raider crusader pimp wagon to ride into battle, as is the standard for black templars.

 Marmatag wrote:
Imperial Guard are still winning GTs. I believe the Boise GT that was won last year with Ravenspam was won this year by pure IG with a Shadowsword.

Bottom line, IG might not win every event but that isn't because they aren't top tier, it's because other armies are also emerging as good. IG are STILL top tier. Knights are not top tier. You can imperium soup and make them stronger, but again, you'll struggle against armies that can control the board and win on objectives.

Of course if you're not playing ITC then yeah, they're OP when the 3++ works, and they're not when it doesn't. Simple really.

You do realize of course that there are a number of knights list getting in top 8 - i believe two tied for 6th place in that very tournament.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/06/27/this-week-in-the-itc-6-28-18-meta-shifts/

Just because one didn't win that precise tournament doesn't mean they aren't competitive. I don't think we can play the "not competitive in ITC" card here. Of course its still early and the meta has to shift to account for the new lists but at this point - very relevant for competitive play.

Also while not a pure knights list the flying monkey GT had one in the winning list (I think):

Catachan Jungle Fighters

Super Heavy Auxiliary

Knight Castellan: Plasma Decimator, Volcano Lance

BA Battalion

Mephiston

Captain w/ jump pack, thunder hammer, and storm shield

Captain w/ jump pack, thunder hammer, and storm shield

5 scouts with bolters, sergeant with storm bolter

5 scouts with bolters, sergeant with storm bolter

5 scouts with bolters

3 Aggressors w/ auto boltstorm gauntlets, fragstorm grenade launchers

IG Battalion

Company commander w/ bolter

Primaris psyker

Ogryn bodyguard with maul and slab shield

Infantry squad

Infantry squad

Infantry squad w/ mortar

2 Hellhound (FW) both with Heavy flamer

2 Hellhound (FW) both with Heavy flamer

1 Hellhound (FW) both with Heavy flamer

At last people realizes how busted hellhounds are. I have been saying it since day obe, but people was too busy with manticores and ibfantry squads.

 Galas wrote:
At last people realizes how busted hellhounds are. I have been saying it since day obe, but people was too busy with manticores and ibfantry squads.

Hellhounds actually used to be d2 on their main flamer and got nerfed in the codex.

I would have actually preferred to see the d2 stay and have them just receive a points increase.

 Galas wrote:
At last people realizes how busted hellhounds are. I have been saying it since day obe, but people was too busy with manticores and ibfantry squads.

Unless you can run and shoot dark lances with it but that's not about Knights so whatever.

-------

Just faced a soup army with 4 Knights and guardsmen squads that were just there to give command points. I'm pure dark eldar and after firing about 12 blasters and 6 dark lances at one of em i got zero wounds. Didn't even scratch off the paint. He only had to command re-roll once. He also got first turn.

I wonder if i'm doing something wrong but the guy i played against is known for bringing the stupidest lists he can come up with. Sigh if only i had the money to buy what i need. Maybe i should buy second-hand.

--------

Also holy crap they need to get rid of Soup lists even harder than they already have. It's just not fun to play against with a pure army of just one faction. That or maybe i just won't play anybody that can't have just one faction in their army.

 LunarSol wrote:
Ion shields is really powerful, but it has a lot of counterplay; particularly with all Knight lists. You just need to make sure to threaten more than one knight and you reduce a ton of value from the strat.

Wouldn't that put more of our stuff in threat range and possibly melee range of all the other knights? Each can take so much firepower on its own. Dividing my anti-tank to go after different targets means it's still only taking off so much from any one knight. When i just fought against knights he still had a good 3 and a half knights of his 4 left and a lot of guardsmen left. I don't think splitting fire will help that much. I did hear dark eldar don't handle Knights well though.

Perhaps if i use Agents of Vect but i'm not sure i'd want to get rid of obsidian rose sub-faction trait just for that. It helps trueborn a lot.

Ice_can wrote:
He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.

Wait, let me get this straight, there is a knight stratagem that allows multiple units to have warlord traits? Is this only restricted to knights? Or can you have say, units from three different factions all taking warlord traits?

Gitdakka wrote:
I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.

I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.

Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down

Note that he spent whopping 6 CP to get all of that...

And one trick to beating that 3++ is a) not target that 4++ until needed b) start firing with least important weapon that still knight would benefit from +1 inv save. Then if he pops it target other knight. 1CP(or 3 if for biggest knight) wasted. Hah. He might have rolled 5 or 6 to inv save to begin with so it doesn't even cost you and then you are free to bombard other knight at will. Or if he doesn't you get to hit 5++ with several lascannons until he pops it.

Oh and if the big shooty one(presumably castellan or valiant) had the 4++ then it will cost 3CP to bump inv to 3++. Even with CP battery from IG that's 3 out of 8 he has left to begin game with. With charge after advance if he was silly enough to go T1 charge even less CP to spend with. He'll hate you for making him spend 3CP and then switch to 5++ knight instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:

All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.

Did he pop the 3++ for first shot? If yes then it's your fault for bombarding the 3++ with your entire army when you should have switched target. Why bombard toughest target when you could go for softer target while making him waste CP he's hard pressed.

Oh and btw how he had custodian captain on bike? Did he have more custodians or did he waste 1CP to bring lone captain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
I think it's pretty clearly the best warlord trait for a single knight, and something that will be included in every multi knight list.

You can also take it and the 2+.

Yes but then again every codex has "must have" warlord traits. About only difference is knights can actually take others. Which I think could be widened to others. As it is codex is now bloody good if it has TWO warlord traits that you might use. Generally it's 1 you see in every list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:
That wont be as big of an issue as I have my land raider crusader pimp wagon to ride into battle, as is the standard for black templars.

Of course land raiders being fairly inefficient for points maybe that's one issue you are having...You are fielding weak list against maxed out knight list. If you field fluffy list vs competive min maxed list you will be in trouble. Knights or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Just faced a soup army with 4 Knights and guardsmen squads that were just there to give command points. I'm pure dark eldar and after firing about 12 blasters and 6 dark lances at one of em i got zero wounds. Didn't even scratch off the paint. He only had to command re-roll once. He also got first turn.

If your dice hates you not much what you can do...Even without any rerolls whatsoever on those shots that's 4-5 through 5++ which should be one knight over half damaged.

Dividing my anti-tank to go after different targets means it's still only taking off so much from any one knight. When i just fought against knights he still had a good 3 and a half knights of his 4 left and a lot of guardsmen left. I don't think splitting fire will help that much. I did hear dark eldar don't handle Knights well though..

Dark eldars handle knights just fine as my poor knights found out. As for splitting it depends where. If you fire, he pops +1 inv save, you still keep firing and THEN later split yeah that's bad.

But you fire say 1 dark lance toward knight, knight player thinks "oh wow he's going to head for this knight" and pops the +1 inv save then short of something like 6 damage which might make you reconsider it's 100% valid idea to switch it. For starters you might miss. Or fail to wound. Or he could save with inv save(maybe with 5 or 6 so +1 inv didn't even matter). Or you could roll 1 for damage. Either way you now have undamaged or nearly undamaged knight with +1 inv save. Standard case is it's no longer worth firing at it but instead hit one of the other knights with 5++. If you keep firing at it you have maximized effect of the CP(or 3 in case of big knight) he spent for +1. If you switch target that CP was wasted. He can't protect another knight with it even if he has 1000000 CP


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.

Wait, let me get this straight, there is a knight stratagem that allows multiple units to have warlord traits? Is this only restricted to knights? Or can you have say, units from three different factions all taking warlord traits?

Yes there's exalted court. 1 CP for 1 knight, 3 for 2. Makes knight a character with all the benefits it is and also gives him warlord trait. However he does not count as your warlord.