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Cheaper is still better.

I haven't had problems with knights this edition. A single knight with a guard list is tough, but if someone's trying to go pure knight, just hide in terrain and grab objectives. Kill them one at a time like necrons and you'll be fine with just plas spam and a few lascannons.

See, I don't see this happen on the table. Take your plasma example:

let's say you get 10 hellblasters in rapidfire range of a Warden with cap support... Good work!
20 3+ rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s (either bulwark, FW knight, or rotate)
= 7.78 damage (that drops to 4.44 against a 3++).

That's not a great return on 330pts of fragile plasma - they're probably all going to be dea next turn... Here's that cheap Warden, with just endless fury, fighting back:
9.48 from the gun
8.89 from the tapdancing
= 8 or 9 dead Hellblasters.

It's pretty silly that in order to make knights viable they had to give them kickass invulnerable saves. Anyone can see there is a problem with the relative power scale of AP weaponry and multi-damage weapons.

Because the armies that have trouble dealing with them have trouble dealing with everything at the moment...

Knights seem to struggle against hordes, armies with negatives to hit them and efficient multi-wound shooting.

They are strong but good armies have the tools to deal with them (lots of negs to hit for eldar of all flavors with good multi-damage shooting, lots of good multi-damage weapons for Tau and enough drones to eat those big shots, tons of bodies + good multi-damage weapons for guard/csm/Nids, mortal wounds+bodies+invulns for demons and their big boys hit just as hard/harder than knights, necrons got quantum shielding+destroyers/vaults).

It's just the usual suspects (orcs, SM of all flavors, is inquisition even a thing?) that struggle to deal at this point.

Spearhead Black Heart
Archon

3xRavagers 3xdisintegrators
Razorwing 2xdisintegrator

Battalion Prophet of the Flesh
Urien
Haemonculus

3x5Wracks

8xGrotesque

2xTalos haywire
2xTalos haywire

Supreme Command Ulthwe
Farseer Skyrunner (doom, executioner)
Spiritseer (protect/jinx)
Spiritseer (enhance/drain)

1850p

Won vs Knight list with this setup.

Deepstrike the Ravagers and "Agents of Vect" all the nasty stratagems. Jinx one knight for the Grotesque along with reroll to wound stratagem while doom another so Talos and Ravagers can kill it.
Smite also helped alot along with executioner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
See, I don't see this happen on the table. Take your plasma example:

let's say you get 10 hellblasters in rapidfire range of a Warden with cap support... Good work!
20 3+ rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s (either bulwark, FW knight, or rotate)
= 7.78 damage (that drops to 4.44 against a 3++).

That's not a great return on 330pts of fragile plasma - they're probably all going to be dea next turn... Here's that cheap Warden, with just endless fury, fighting back:
9.48 from the gun
8.89 from the tapdancing
= 8 or 9 dead Hellblasters.

You forgot reroll 1s to wound since there will obviously be a lieutenant nearby (never seen hellblaster without him same for the banner)

In more tailored list I would go for Dark Angels with Azrael. Thats reroll to hit and a 4++ from Azrael along with the lieutenant and stratagem that gives them +1D.
And ofcourse you have a Null zone psyker to remove that pesky ++ save.
Thats about 27wounds.

That’s also 738 points and a CP at the bare minimum, and requires two Codexes to get Null Zone in there.

That said, 738pts + 1CP to one-round a 500pt Knight isn’t a bad rate of return.

Knights just got thier first in-depth release (with support and heavy versions) and we've only seen one major ITC with them (and that one didn't use the FAQ)

Knights did finish on top tables there, but I don't think the community will really have an opinion until after BAO. Depending on the results they will either have a ton of Dark Eldar or Imperial Knights 'need nerfing' threads.

Astra Militarum was easy to do comparisons of. Take an AM model, compare only the part of the stat line you think is relevant, then notice it's cheaper than your stuff and 'almost' as good. It's ready-built to generate 40k lynch mobs. Knights can only really be compared to other knights.

I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

Well, obviously there isn't one. But I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Every list needs a counter.

I see people trying to out-punch knight lists with big, expensive counters that they think will punch right through a knight. In fairness, a lascannon will still punch a knight pretty hard, but at the same time... the lascannon is taking up the space of 2-3 other models. As lists deform to get into a boxing match with knights, they're actually shifting themselves into the wheelhouse of knights: elite armies with a fair bit of punch that probably won't play the scenario very well.

I'm pretty sure it is a monumental feat to out punch a knight army, but the solution is to just not play their game. Play the darn scenario, screen and protect your units to last through the game. Get to turn 5 and steal the table (even easier in Maelstrom or ITC).

I've played a Valiant a few times over the past few weeks and I will impart this from my experience:

When players feel pressured into destroying the Valiant, the Valiant wins. Rotate Ion Shields, take about 10 points of damage or less for the turn. Repeat until my CP is dry.

I feel a lot more pressure when they focus on the scenario and remove the stuff around the Valiant, thus making the model a giant death robot that is going to lock 600 points (a third or more of the overall) of objective scoring into 1 singular model.

Now it is entirely fun to watch the Valiant rampage through an army, but I wouldn't say it actually helps me win games outside of sheer intimidation (read as: misplays by the opponent).

How do you beat knight armies? Drop in more models, models that can get blasted off the table and your response is a laugh. "You seriously just dropped the Avenger into a 51 point squad? I'm so winning this exchange." Resist the urge to buff up your armor wrecking abilities and big models with good saves. Stop playing to the advantage of the knights.

Dark eldar probably do better with their mobility and swarminess than they do with actually threatening the knights. Threatening the objectives is what they really are doing, the blasters are "for the lawls" at that point (don't take that as me saying they aren't a threat, but the bigger threat is that Drukhari are now in control of the scenario/table).

Shriveling Pox + PBC's = pewpew knights.

You don't need to "one round" all the knights, just cripple them so their damage output is minimized. I love the IK codex, and I know many chaos players are looking at plugging the new renegades in their lists. I don't think they're over the top OP, and it will just take time for the meta to adjust. Plus, Orks and SW are right around the corner, and codices have progressively gotten better; who knows, maybe one of these two will be the counter balance to knights which puts it on a level playing field?

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.

I have had mixed results with them against my guard. Either I go first and hopefully pop their shadowsword version, or they go first, pop enough of my anti armour to ensure I don't ever catch back up. Rather binary currently.

Still for a soup list there basic knight seems a bit better than my basic sponsonless super heavy. Better BS and resilience, comparable weapons fit. The better BS in particular is good as it gets round the -1 or -2 that makes Guard players sob quietly into their rations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I have heard from a very reliable source IG CP farm is on deck for the nerf bat. You can keep playing them but I’d be experimenting with new lists that eschew them so you don’t get caught out totally flat footed. GW giveth and really taketh.

I don't play IG so if the nerf bad finally comes for them it's just good news for me but maybe I'm just not used to working on GW response times. Also if it happens I expect much salt from IG players.

If the nerf is 'Guard CPs can only be spent on 'Guard stratagems the IG players will be perfectly happy. Of course all those Imperial lists will be rather unhappy and have to go buy Admech or something...

Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.

Stux wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

Well, obviously there isn't one. But I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Every list needs a counter.

Rock-Paper-Scissors is not competitive.

w1zard wrote:
Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.

I think this is pretty much the reason right here.

shogun wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.

This seems like an excellent list.

Won't the shield breaker auto kill a Farseer/Lock a turn though really screwwing over the Doom working as wanted, leaving all the other CP for buffing shields? The 3++ against shooting seems to really screw this up. Even the 4+ seems like it would cause a problem? And of course the fact that the Avenger being the best gun.. that happens to have a Heavy Flamer on it has to be annoying.

But It does look good. Might work. You should try it!

 Marmatag wrote:
Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.

Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.

Stupid soup.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.

I think this is pretty much the reason right here.

I honestly think the game is largely improved by every army having an NPC detachment of some sort. It's something I've really come to appreciate in a lot of games and it translates really well to 40k.

tneva82 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.

Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.

Stupid soup.

IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.

Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still skeptical vs Xenos. 600 pts is a lot for something with only 28 wounds.

I've won the last 4 games I have played with it. I am not skeptical. It actually OP.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Isn't there a Wych Cult that gives +1S?
So drugs + obsession = S5.

Their weapon is fixed strength 4, not strength user+1.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

 Galas wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.

Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.

Stupid soup.

IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.

Then why mono armies are voewully lacking in top spots...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

Especially when best weapon on questor chassis is only 6" longer reach.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.

Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.

Stupid soup.

IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.

Then why mono armies are voewully lacking in top spots...

Because why play a mono army when you can use all the best units of different mono armies that sinergyze so well between them? That doesn't makes Imperial guard, as a mono faction, weak. Custodes aren't weak as mono faction as long as you spam Jetbikes. Even Custodes guardians are competitive. But why play one or the other when you can mix the best of two worlds?

meleti wrote:

5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.

#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.