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 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.

 Zid wrote:
Shriveling Pox + PBC's = pewpew knights.

You don't need to "one round" all the knights, just cripple them so their damage output is minimized. I love the IK codex, and I know many chaos players are looking at plugging the new renegades in their lists. I don't think they're over the top OP, and it will just take time for the meta to adjust. Plus, Orks and SW are right around the corner, and codices have progressively gotten better; who knows, maybe one of these two will be the counter balance to knights which puts it on a level playing field?

This right here. People need to stop thinking that if you can't one round the big toys that you have no chance. Diversify your assets - they can split fire, but they can't split shots to other units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?

In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.

The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?

In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.

The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.

I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.

Reemule wrote:

shogun wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.

This seems like an excellent list.

Won't the shield breaker auto kill a Farseer/Lock a turn though really screwwing over the Doom working as wanted, leaving all the other CP for buffing shields? The 3++ against shooting seems to really screw this up. Even the 4+ seems like it would cause a problem? And of course the fact that the Avenger being the best gun.. that happens to have a Heavy Flamer on it has to be annoying.

But It does look good. Might work. You should try it!

Don't like the missile but the farseer could still rock a -2 to hit with lightning reflexes stratagem. The missile also needs a 5+ to wound to kill the farseer in one shot.

My list doesn't care about 'saves'..

Let's say I put doom on a knight and shoot with 30 mandrakes (bale flame):
- 60 shots -> 40 hits,
- 6 to (mortal)wound-> so let's say 7 mortal wounds,
- BUT then we reroll to wound so extra 5 mortal wounds,
- BUT these mortal wounds are on top of the regelar shooting damage so the knight need's to make 12 armor saves with a -1, so even with a 3++ save that would mean another 4 wounds,
- Total: 16 wounds

I also got 25 rangers but let's say I lose 5 of them first round: 20 shots, 14 hits, 2 (mortal)wounds and then reroll to wound so another 2 mortal wounds and 4 armorsaves, failing one, so a total of 5 wounds.

This knight is almost dead.

Before this all happens I already did the following towards another knight:

moving:
solitaire blitz forward within 6 inch of knight (-1 leadership)
hemlock cloudstrikes within 12 inch (-2 leadership)

psychic:
shadowseer: smite and mirror of minds
shadowseer: smite and shards of light (-1 leadership)
farseer: mind war (against -4 leadership), smite
farseer: executioner, smite
hemlock: smite

shooting:
shadowseer: grenade launcher (-4 leadership)
shadowseer: grenade launcher (-4 leadership)
hemlock shooting

And maybe some assault if that could finish it off..

 Daedalus81 wrote:

meleti wrote:

5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.

#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.

You get shot in the opponent’s turn and use that stratagem in your own. The Knight, if it stood back up, has d3 wounds at the start of the turn.

People only seem to complain about tournament OP-ness, not regular OP-ness. When someone complains about Knights being OP, people just direct them to GW links for the anti-tank choice of their army.

There's also a lot of keyboard warriors that seem to just echo whatever the first over-hyped individual says, though that individual usually only played one or two games against said OP list with a subpar list, and everyone just hops on that as an example of how OP something is.

With Knights, the general consensus is that they're underpowered in tournaments because they can't hold objectives and can't deal with hordes, both of which I find mind-boggling since I myself played against a Tau list build for a tournament using ITC format and I was able to hold 3 of the 4 objectives for the entire game and was wiping things out left and right, despite a few critical mistakes I made.

So, idk about all this business about them being a gate-keeper army or a meta-breaker or whatever. I think those are just labels for people that feel like they're playing a 'Real' army that isn't Knights so they can scoff at Knights players.

Until Knights start winning tournaments.

Then the OP rants will begin.

My stance: All Knight lists can be very unfun to play against if you are taking an "All comers" list. Some of your choices will end up feeling like wasted dice rolls and if the Knight player can remove your units that are effective against the Knights, it will be an uphill, unfun, game.

But on the flip-side, if your list has lots of multi-damage AP -2 to better weapons, it is an unfun game for the Knight player as they are told to remove 1-2 Knights per turn.

Both of these combined solidly puts Knight lists as "casual" only. For both players' sake

-

I don't like how asymmetrical knights are.

They are an army that can present complete skew yet have tools to deal with all comers (at least AM tank companies can get tied up in melee, hordes struggle to deal with armor...). It is bad game design.

Be that as it may, people have real $$ sunk into that bad design so it's only fair that they stay but they are the most rock-paper-scissors of armies and if you are not playing someone with a well developed model collect they just may not own the tools to play against you (which, again is bad design).

They stomp newbies, roll armies that aren't prepped to deal with them and die in a fire to those that are ready to deal with them. The FW version is OP compared to the rest (where have we seen that before, thanks for continuing the stereotype). They are bad game design and should never have been made into a stand alone army. But now that that ship has sailed in the interest of selling more models more power to our eldar overlords.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?

In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.

The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.

I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.

Knights lowest shooting range is 36" - except for additional melta guns. They abolsutely can and should sit back and shoot against armies that don't have long range firepower.


The Castellan absolutely can a sit in the back and shoot all game and make up it's points. volcano lance will merc just about any vehical or light vehical squadron in 1 shot. Relic plasma is the same deal 48" range. Then hes got the missles and d3 auto cannons with 48". Sure hes got 4 melta guns that he would like to use but I'd much prefer to bombard the opponents shooting before I go into range against an army that can strip my invo saves of knights. You are right - death hex will absolutely merc a knight. Realistically knights aren't going to win the objective game early - they are almost always going for late game table control or a tabling.


For example I have no idea what TS style army you were running but I'd assume it looks something like this.

2-3 daemon princes Ahriman - maybe an exault or termy sorc.


las missle dreads/sicarians/ or trip pred in the back


with ether small units of horrors or rubrics.


The only thing that is a threat to my knights is the back line shooty and it's made real dangerous by death hex. If I sit back for 1-2 turns killing that stuff (realistically that is all it will take to kill 4-5 back line threats) then I am more than happy to move up and stomp DP/arhiman turn 3/4. Knights have no invo in CC anyways to removing invos once shooting is gone is not at all a threat. Not saying it's an unbeatable strategy just saying it's a mistake to walk into a nasty spell like death hex.

It's possible to get deathhex turn 2 on any knight you want - but I am at least going to make you come to me.

I think the Valiant is pretty poor, while the Castellan suffers from the D6 damage on its guns. You can have good turns and bad ones - and the bad ones feel doubly bad if you end up degraded or facing minuses to hit.

To get your points you really need to shoot and assault, which you won't tend to manage turn 1. (In fact depending on LoS it can be quite easy to end up not really having nothing much to do at all in the first turn, which is awful on such an expensive model.)

Also the survivability is very swingy. Some games the knight player makes all their saves. Or you get through and promptly hit a 1-2 damage (CP reroll or no CP reroll). On the other hand you can get 3 D6 damage through, the Knight player fluffs their saves and you promptly roll 15~ damage. A bit of chipping away, a few mortal wounds and suddenly you are in trouble.

This is true for any dice rolls I guess, but it feels more luck dependent than other factions - which tend to get a more normal distribution.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.

Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.

Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".

Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.

The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.

Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?

In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.

The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.

I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.

Knights lowest shooting range is 36" - except for additional melta guns. They abolsutely can and should sit back and shoot against armies that don't have long range firepower.


The Castellan absolutely can a sit in the back and shoot all game and make up it's points. volcano lance will merc just about any vehical or light vehical squadron in 1 shot. Relic plasma is the same deal 48" range. Then hes got the missles and d3 auto cannons with 48". Sure hes got 4 melta guns that he would like to use but I'd much prefer to bombard the opponents shooting before I go into range against an army that can strip my invo saves of knights. You are right - death hex will absolutely merc a knight. Realistically knights aren't going to win the objective game early - they are almost always going for late game table control or a tabling.


For example I have no idea what TS style army you were running but I'd assume it looks something like this.

2-3 daemon princes Ahriman - maybe an exault or termy sorc.


las missle dreads/sicarians/ or trip pred in the back


with ether small units of horrors or rubrics.


The only thing that is a threat to my knights is the back line shooty and it's made real dangerous by death hex. If I sit back for 1-2 turns killing that stuff (realistically that is all it will take to kill 4-5 back line threats) then I am more than happy to move up and stomp DP/arhiman turn 3/4. Knights have no invo in CC anyways to removing invos once shooting is gone is not at all a threat. Not saying it's an unbeatable strategy just saying it's a mistake to walk into a nasty spell like death hex.

It's possible to get deathhex turn 2 on any knight you want - but I am at least going to make you come to me.

Although I disagree that your tactic is as bulletproof as you make it seem (mostly because out of the local players, I was the only heavy melee army to manage to still win consistently post-deepstrike nerf), I respect your style and know how good it can be. I personally tried to bring an all-comers T-sons list against knights and got WIPED, however wwhen I mixed my CSM, T-sons and Daemons together, it swung heavily in my favor.

Tyel wrote:
I think the Valiant is pretty poor, while the Castellan suffers from the D6 damage on its guns. You can have good turns and bad ones - and the bad ones feel doubly bad if you end up degraded or facing minuses to hit.

To get your points you really need to shoot and assault, which you won't tend to manage turn 1. (In fact depending on LoS it can be quite easy to end up not really having nothing much to do at all in the first turn, which is awful on such an expensive model.)

Also the survivability is very swingy. Some games the knight player makes all their saves. Or you get through and promptly hit a 1-2 damage (CP reroll or no CP reroll). On the other hand you can get 3 D6 damage through, the Knight player fluffs their saves and you promptly roll 15~ damage. A bit of chipping away, a few mortal wounds and suddenly you are in trouble.

This is true for any dice rolls I guess, but it feels more luck dependent than other factions - which tend to get a more normal distribution.

Valliant basically requires the 4++ save with rotated shield turn 1 (everyone goes for it first). I'm considering running Valliant and castellan together with Castellan going for 2+ save relic sitting the back behind cover - this will be a 1+ save and effectively a 4+ or 3+ save against the majority of anti tank fire.

I am still hung up on Taranis vs Raven as both houses are VERY good. Ravens reroll 1's stratagem is fantastic. Taranis has knight resurrection and also 6+++ saves. The one advantage of Taranis is you can keep 1 knight in the fight with darkest hour if your opponent can't reach it in CC. This makes an opponent shooting down the Castellan almost auto lose because as long as you have CP - hes going to be fighting at full power provided you can make your 4+ get up roll with a reroll. Then 1 CP to keep him fighting at full power. Beware - against Eldar players they will be able to use Forwarned stratagem to "intercept" your resurrecting knight because it states you "set up" the model. Which forwarded states anytime an opponent "sets up" a model.

As for how to play the castellan. Roll it first. Use reroll on a roll of 1-2 on the volcano lance. If you get 3 shots with it then you can use your reroll on something else like your crusaders thermal cannon or damage result on your mega missle. If castellans randomness bothers you I'd suggest house raven. It makes the volcano lance increadibly powerful - 1 wound will average 7 damage and the strat also boosts your shoulder cannons big time as well.

Reemule wrote:

I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.

I think you are overestimating odds of killing him. It's less than 50% chance to kill 4 wound character and odds just drop with W4. Average output is 2 wounds so 2 missiles won't even in average kill ahriman...Oh and knights are often short of CP's so 4CP for not even killing W5 character is expensive.

Those missiles aren't bad but they aren't super weapons either. About best use for them are W4 characters and you desperately need raven strategem and possibly command reroll even then to make it reliable enough to plan for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

meleti wrote:

5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.

#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.

You get shot in the opponent’s turn and use that stratagem in your own. The Knight, if it stood back up, has d3 wounds at the start of the turn.

a) that is expensive strategem that works 50-50. Not great
b) opponent can potentially charge you finishing 1-3 wounded character forcing you to spend 2CP more for another 50-50 shot. Great.

That strategem is fun troll strategem but it's not something to rely on.

Oh and every time you die there's 30% chance you can't even USE the strategem so chance of strategem saving castellan is 35%. Albeit 30% of times you spend no CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
Until Knights start winning tournaments.

Then the OP rants will begin.

That's big if. IF they are so OP why haven't they already dominated tournaments they attended...

Or maybe it's shock horror that ~5 model armies aren't actually able to reliably score 5x20-0 and are bound to lose games and claims of OP are usual hysterical new codex syndrome.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.

I think this is pretty much the reason right here.

It's not the reason.

Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

karandrasss wrote:
Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

No, judging by Boise Cup results (which I believe used ITC Champions missions), Knights can do just fine in ITC events.

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

No, judging by Boise Cup results (which I believe used ITC Champions missions), Knights can do just fine in ITC events.

But they didn't win any of the GTs over the weekend, which means they aren't OP, no?

karandrasss wrote:

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

No, judging by Boise Cup results (which I believe used ITC Champions missions), Knights can do just fine in ITC events.

But they didn't win any of the GTs over the weekend, which means they aren't OP, no?

I have no idea what OP means in this context. They're good enough to X-1 a big event and can probably be refined further.

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

No, judging by Boise Cup results (which I believe used ITC Champions missions), Knights can do just fine in ITC events.

But they didn't win any of the GTs over the weekend, which means they aren't OP, no?

I have no idea what OP means in this context. They're good enough to X-1 a big event and can probably be refined further.

So can dark eldars, eldars, imperium, chaos...Point being?

tneva82 wrote:

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

meleti wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Is the lack of OP-ness only in the ITC format?

No, judging by Boise Cup results (which I believe used ITC Champions missions), Knights can do just fine in ITC events.

But they didn't win any of the GTs over the weekend, which means they aren't OP, no?

I have no idea what OP means in this context. They're good enough to X-1 a big event and can probably be refined further.

So can dark eldars, eldars, imperium, chaos...Point being?

... That three Knights lists did well at a recent, relatively large tournament?

But if that's sign of OP'ness then so are imperium, chaos, eldar and dark eldars. Oh and pretty sure I have seen tyranids do well as well.

Ban them all! Nerf them all to hell! Can't let anybody do well at tournaments!

tneva82 wrote:
But if that's sign of OP'ness then so are imperium, chaos, eldar and dark eldars. Oh and pretty sure I have seen tyranids do well as well.

Ban them all! Nerf them all to hell! Can't let anybody do well at tournaments!

Dude you're just trolling now. Find where I wrote that Knights need a change.

Also Keep in mind to that these knight list where doing well at these events before the CP buff, so they're only getting better.
Castilian are pure money, Every time he fires it is devastating (doubly so with the Raven Strat).Xenomancers is also right that to in that you can position them to in way which makes them quite hard to kill. I kinda expect 2 helverin's with a Castilian to become a common imperial soup detachment (though it's 941 points). Speaking of which, soup with Knights will probably be better than pure, but that's been the case for literally every imperial codex. My point is that Knights will be among the strongest element of Soup, not that they do everything better than everyone else.

So it looks like there are many factions that are competitive against one another. What was the problem again?

karandrasss wrote:
So it looks like there are many factions that are competitive against one another. What was the problem again?

I don't know who had a problem to begin with. OP is in here saying Knights are the strongest Imperium faction. I'm in here saying Knights are competitively viable. I think people are just raging against some strawman, because no one is in here saying that Knights are ruining the game or anything.

Reemule wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.

The issue is they don't take them.

How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?

What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)

Anticipating the tournament meta is a skill, too. Sometimes you've just got to roll the dice (pun unabashedly intended)

In terms of tourney play last weekend at the (small, 30 people) BattleUx weekend tourney using these popular tourney rules (really, not a fan, very bitty game where one minute you are trying to capture an objective the next shoot down an enemy flier and cast a psychic power, etc, etc. - far prefer a game with a clear objective and perhaps some - maybe secret - subplots) for how games are played. Knight players dominated, typically with a tiny battalion of ad mech for CPs. Ultimately the knight players with at least one volcano cannon got to the head of the knight pack, with knight games often being decided by who went first.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
In terms of tourney play last weekend at the (small, 30 people) BattleUx weekend tourney using these popular tourney rules (really, not a fan, very bitty game where one minute you are trying to capture an objective the next shoot down an enemy flier and cast a psychic power, etc, etc. - far prefer a game with a clear objective and perhaps some - maybe secret - subplots) for how games are played. Knight players dominated, typically with a tiny battalion of ad mech for CPs. Ultimately the knight players with at least one volcano cannon got to the head of the knight pack, with knight games often being decided by who went first.

40k is always decided by who goes first.