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2018/12/20 10:53:16
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Galas wrote: The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Hey guys - guess what the budget of Into the Spiderverse is? $90M and 142 animators.
"It took around a year for the production team to create 10 seconds of footage that they were happy with"
This? Probably well under $1M and a mere handful of creatives.
I don't think this argument doesn't hold...especially when discussing an artistic sensibility. Compare into the spiderverse to season 1 south park. Both are incredible and the budgets are hardly comparable.
That's great when season 1 of South Park looks no where near what it does now and contains none of the nuance of later seasons. But, yea, alien fart radar.
But you sought fit to judge South Park's artistic merit using hindsight, when clearly their look was kind of gak, too. So, both SP season 1 and this have "low end" visuals. What else are you using to compare them? Oh, nothing? Maybe that just makes you overly judgmental.
2018/12/20 17:06:31
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
I’m more interested in the acting and the story than the CGI, myself. Helsreach is fantastic for the story, I wasn’t very impressed with the initial imagery.
I feel somewhat uncomfortable in that the trailer for Angels of Death doesn’t have one bit of dialogue in it. It’s all imagery, no story.
It never ends well
2018/12/20 17:36:39
Subject: Re:'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2018/12/20 18:39:14
Subject: Re:'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Helsreach is really cool and fun because we know what it is. A homemade project set to some cool audio-drama/audiobook clips...and it's even more cool because it's free. I don't think anyone would argue that Boylan's CGI or work is particularly stunning (if anything the original couple episodes were more interesting because of the artistic choice he made to not go classic CGI), but it was cool, and fun to watch - interesting story, etc.
However...I feel what we may get something that is slightly better but GW will end up charging $39.95 for a 42 minute video, etc. Then they'll be shocked when people are upset, or they don't sell many copies. Every cool fan project doesn't need to become a commercial product - and if it does, its quality needs to be stepped up exponentially (the discontinued Inquisition film being a good example of the quality I'd expect if I were paying for a fan-made CGI film, etc.).
2018/12/20 18:47:11
Subject: Re:'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
However...I feel what we may get something that is slightly better but GW will end up charging $39.95 for a 42 minute video, etc. Then they'll be shocked when people are upset, or they don't sell many copies. Every cool fan project doesn't need to become a commercial product - and if it does, its quality needs to be stepped up exponentially (the discontinued Inquisition film being a good example of the quality I'd expect if I were paying for a fan-made CGI film, etc.).
They already stated that this is not a movie, but a series that will be on their Warhammer TV channel.
2018/12/20 18:47:48
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Stormonu wrote: I’m more interested in the acting and the story than the CGI, myself. Helsreach is fantastic for the story, I wasn’t very impressed with the initial imagery.
I feel somewhat uncomfortable in that the trailer for Angels of Death doesn’t have one bit of dialogue in it. It’s all imagery, no story.
I'm worried that they're probably going for the Zack Snyder approach: trying to create 'epic' (yes, I get the pun) moments without any real story.
Galas wrote: The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Hey guys - guess what the budget of Into the Spiderverse is? $90M and 142 animators.
"It took around a year for the production team to create 10 seconds of footage that they were happy with"
This? Probably well under $1M and a mere handful of creatives.
I don't think this argument doesn't hold...especially when discussing an artistic sensibility. Compare into the spiderverse to season 1 south park. Both are incredible and the budgets are hardly comparable.
That's great when season 1 of South Park looks no where near what it does now and contains none of the nuance of later seasons. But, yea, alien fart radar.
But you sought fit to judge South Park's artistic merit using hindsight, when clearly their look was kind of gak, too. So, both SP season 1 and this have "low end" visuals. What else are you using to compare them? Oh, nothing? Maybe that just makes you overly judgmental.
I would disagree that season 1 south park was gak. Somehow they managed to forrest gump their way into a style that absolutely worked.
I was comparing budget...south park was done on a wing and a prayer and worked. Helsreach, 1-10, was much the same.
ender502
"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock
"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C.
2018/12/20 19:31:41
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
That does not look promising... their gw brand shows and movies do not have a good track record... some 3rd party video game stuff like DoW and Space Marine had solid animation and acting, but forgetting the absolute crap-fest the last CGI GW movie is the mental equivalent of trying to convince my brain to french a heavily used urinal cake lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 19:35:03
Stormonu wrote: I’m more interested in the acting and the story than the CGI, myself. Helsreach is fantastic for the story, I wasn’t very impressed with the initial imagery.
I feel somewhat uncomfortable in that the trailer for Angels of Death doesn’t have one bit of dialogue in it. It’s all imagery, no story.
I'm worried that they're probably going for the Zack Snyder approach: trying to create 'epic' (yes, I get the pun) moments without any real story.
I can't help but think of this:
Thank you for posting this, it was very insightful. This explained the thing that bothers me in certain films and other stories, that I quite couldn't put my finger on by myself.
Danny76 wrote: Again though guys, the trailer isn’t scenes from Angels Of Death or anything. It’s just concept.
They haven’t started it yet.
I think more complaining will be valid when it comes to a full trailer or the first episode (depending how it then looks)
'Just concept?'
I think you fail to understand what concept work is supposed to do lol... it's supposed to sell the premise, and quite often can be even better than the final result. It's supposed to excite the audience and drum up support, you don't release art, even concept art or clips, unless you are sure it makes a good case for the final product. I.e, don't make excuses for the clip, they released it, it's up for debate.
That being said I am sure we will all, even the doubters, maybe especially the doubters, be thrilled to be wrong. That being said, the art direction in the clip, the lighting, the shadows, the geometry, all cause me concern. I would not have put it out in that state, and I deal with CGI and high end video professionally, so not a layman's opinion here. (not saying you can't disagree, ymmv, but there are objective issues there).
Well aware of concept thanks, I swear all this forum has is sarcastic People and trolls.
I didn’t say they did concept well.
As you say it should drum up support - that’s their error.
Quite often can be better, quite often is worse as it’s worked on more etc.
I agree the clip is up for debate. I am merely informing the people that may not know, that the series itself may not look terrible like this.
I’m in no way a GW apologist, and if they make something bad, they sure do.
But Rich is a good animator, so I have time for him. Though that still means we can all be proven right or wrong who knows.
I wouldn’t have put it out like that either personally, but a lot of people seem to be taking this like it is footage from the completed work and out it will come with more of the same - just stating the fact that we don’t know much about it yet
2018/12/21 01:58:19
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
I think not, as it’s going to be on their Warhammer tv, which is YouTube too.
Their twitch is where you have to pay, but I doubt it’s exclusive to that.
(Like the paint videos and all those if you search on YouTube for their channel, all free content).
2018/12/21 03:51:23
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Danny76 wrote: Well aware of concept thanks, I swear all this forum has is sarcastic People and trolls.
I didn’t say they did concept well.
As you say it should drum up support - that’s their error.
Quite often can be better, quite often is worse as it’s worked on more etc.
I agree the clip is up for debate. I am merely informing the people that may not know, that the series itself may not look terrible like this.
I’m in no way a GW apologist, and if they make something bad, they sure do.
But Rich is a good animator, so I have time for him. Though that still means we can all be proven right or wrong who knows.
I wouldn’t have put it out like that either personally, but a lot of people seem to be taking this like it is footage from the completed work and out it will come with more of the same - just stating the fact that we don’t know much about it yet
I'm a troll and sarcastic? Whut? You're the one who said - chill it's 'just concept'. I rebutted you with the legitimate, appropriate point that the entire point of concept art/vid is to weight a decision about how you feel about even seeing a final product. It's VERY important. How that makes me a troll or sarcastic... ok then.
the knee jerk reactions people are getting from the teaser is just that, a knee jerk reaction. richard hasn't even begun production on the series yet. no script has been written. no writers have been hired. no plans has been discussed. no media format has been chosen. no model has been made. no visual style chosen. no hardware, software, or even employees hired. i wouldn't even call it a trailer, it's just there to excite us, start the hype, wet our appetites of what's to come.
i doubt richard even made the teaser, because he has yet to finish helsreach. he was even surprised the teaser has been released. i can tell the teaser has been rushed out and is in no way a representation of the final product.
it cost like him like $9000 for just that 4 minutes of his Guardsman short. now that this will be a pixar level production, it will cost games workshop millions. if i had any criticism at all, it would be that they are treating this project like a indie video game. i mean, hollywood movies wouldn't get announced until there is something to show.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 05:12:18
2018/12/21 08:48:41
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Yes... but again... you are placing the responsibility of perception on the audience. No one would react to video and CGI if no video and CGI were put forward to react to. That is on GW, not us. They could have just announced, had some concept stills maybe at most, or just simply announced in writing.
You can't fault people for looking at something that they were asked to look at, and then you know, having thoughts about what they saw either way. Cmon. It's practically victim-blaming otherwise lol...
(lol dammit I wanted to save my eleven thousand one hundred and eleventieth post for something else)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 08:49:53
MajorTom11 wrote: Yes... but again... you are placing the responsibility of perception on the audience. No one would react to video and CGI if no video and CGI were put forward to react to. That is on GW, not us. They could have just announced, had some concept stills maybe at most, or just simply announced in writing.
You can't fault people for looking at something that they were asked to look at, and then you know, having thoughts about what they saw either way. Cmon. It's practically victim-blaming otherwise lol...
(lol dammit I wanted to save my eleven thousand one hundred and eleventieth post for something else)
congrats? on 11111?
you do make a valid point.
ofcourse it coulda been done better, GW marketing got raging boner for anything with positive community feedback i.e. Helsreach. then probably pushed for something to come out early and you get the aforementioned knee-jerkage.
2018/12/21 10:39:53
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
See, there's an important point that really needs to be made right here - just because you are not excited does not mean the teaser failed to excite "people". It failed to excite you.
I was excited enough to watch it multiple times, because I can see it for what it is - a "hey, wouldn't this be awesome with the right amount of time & budget, considering who's doing it?" pitch - and I'm very much looking forward to the final result.
I mean crikey, Disney managed to get people hyped up for Pirates of the Caribbean with nothing more than a few names "whooshing" past a CGI sword blade, and a single, sub-second shot of a skeletal foot hitting a seabed. Now, GW may not yet have earned that kind of easily-inspired enthusiasm back yet, but the fact they've gone to a fan creator with an evident passion for the work and, based on his comments on that livestream, given him a fair amount of creative freedom along with a decent budget I'm entirely comfortable getting a little hyped for this.
Cautious optimism is one thing, cynical nitpicking is another.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2018/12/21 10:54:58
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Danny76 wrote: Well aware of concept thanks, I swear all this forum has is sarcastic People and trolls.
I didn’t say they did concept well.
As you say it should drum up support - that’s their error.
Quite often can be better, quite often is worse as it’s worked on more etc.
I agree the clip is up for debate. I am merely informing the people that may not know, that the series itself may not look terrible like this.
I’m in no way a GW apologist, and if they make something bad, they sure do.
But Rich is a good animator, so I have time for him. Though that still means we can all be proven right or wrong who knows.
I wouldn’t have put it out like that either personally, but a lot of people seem to be taking this like it is footage from the completed work and out it will come with more of the same - just stating the fact that we don’t know much about it yet
I'm a troll and sarcastic? Whut? You're the one who said - chill it's 'just concept'. I rebutted you with the legitimate, appropriate point that the entire point of concept art/vid is to weight a decision about how you feel about even seeing a final product. It's VERY important. How that makes me a troll or sarcastic... ok then.
Didn’t call you those. Said it’s full of them here.
But the reply that could be seen as belittling fits; ‘I think you fail to understand what concept work is supposed to do lol’ isn’t exactly just rebutting a point is it.
The rest of the post was a normal response (which I replied to normally, no issue with that), but why even open with that. Maybe it’s the forethought of how things can come across written that wasn’t considered and it wasn’t meant that way
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I agree it is on GW not us that it’s come out this way.
I did say that in my reply, unless you only read the first line.
Shadowsfm, though I don’t know that this will be Pixar level, but it will cost considerably more than anything else done in this field.
It’s a big budget production compared. I also don’t think he really did anything on this, unless he had the renders and just quickly threw an animation of them together perhaps. But he certainly didn’t sit making this ready to excitedly announce it etc..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 11:01:56
2018/12/21 14:32:03
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Don't joke, the GW live action short films are awesome in their cheesy badness.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2018/12/21 16:11:57
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Danny76 wrote: Again though guys, the trailer isn’t scenes from Angels Of Death or anything. It’s just concept. They haven’t started it yet.
I think more complaining will be valid when it comes to a full trailer or the first episode (depending how it then looks)
'Just concept?'
I think you fail to understand what concept work is supposed to do lol... it's supposed to sell the premise, and quite often can be even better than the final result. It's supposed to excite the audience and drum up support, you don't release art, even concept art or clips, unless you are sure it makes a good case for the final product. I.e, don't make excuses for the clip, they released it, it's up for debate.
That being said I am sure we will all, even the doubters, maybe especially the doubters, be thrilled to be wrong. That being said, the art direction in the clip, the lighting, the shadows, the geometry, all cause me concern. I would not have put it out in that state, and I deal with CGI and high end video professionally, so not a layman's opinion here. (not saying you can't disagree, ymmv, but there are objective issues there).
I think you fail to realize how much can change in an animation in just three months.
In animation work we have a demo-reel that shows off what we could be working on internally. If we judged it entirely on what the initial concepts would be no project would ever see the light of day. Remember this is a concept not a full trailer they did not even give you a date of when it will be finished. Knowing his work, it will probably every two to three months per episode.
Giving ample time for him to improve it.
We aren't talking about teams of people, but a single team.
See, there's an important point that really needs to be made right here - just because you are not excited does not mean the teaser failed to excite "people". It failed to excite you.
I was excited enough to watch it multiple times, because I can see it for what it is - a "hey, wouldn't this be awesome with the right amount of time & budget, considering who's doing it?" pitch - and I'm very much looking forward to the final result.
Basically. Its like the people complaining "WHY ARE THERE NO GUARDSMEN OR EISENHORN!"
Well the decided not to do that. If it failed to excite you well thats on you, not the company. Space Marines are still the posterboys and will remain so.
i doubt richard even made the teaser, because he has yet to finish helsreach. he was even surprised the teaser has been released. i can tell the teaser has been rushed out and is in no way a representation of the final product.
Looked like the internal test development / concept video you would send to the company as a progress update. Some of the CG was not even finished by the looks of it (anti-aliasing and some artifacts)
I highly doubt that he was fully aware that they were going to announce it in the middle of his project.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 16:18:51
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2018/12/21 17:20:43
Subject: Re:'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Danny76 wrote: Well aware of concept thanks, I swear all this forum has is sarcastic People and trolls.
I didn’t say they did concept well.
As you say it should drum up support - that’s their error.
Quite often can be better, quite often is worse as it’s worked on more etc.
I agree the clip is up for debate. I am merely informing the people that may not know, that the series itself may not look terrible like this.
I’m in no way a GW apologist, and if they make something bad, they sure do.
But Rich is a good animator, so I have time for him. Though that still means we can all be proven right or wrong who knows.
I wouldn’t have put it out like that either personally, but a lot of people seem to be taking this like it is footage from the completed work and out it will come with more of the same - just stating the fact that we don’t know much about it yet
Huhn, I had taken it as clips taken from some sort of production-in-work or possibly an actual final segment. If that was not the case, it is a bit of relief - but makes me wonder where it DID come from (a pre-post/re-used & recolored scene from Helbrecht?)
I am still hopeful - GW has had some excellent CGI sequences in-house (Space Marine game, Dawn of War III trailer, heck even bits of the Knight trailer was cool and it had live actors in it) ; if it is the level of that Death of Hope 2 trailer, I'll be extremely pleased.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
