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2018/12/19 14:33:43
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
that's from the same guy that did the trailer??? Weird, looks so much better
Making 3d movies is a gradual process and you can add progressive layers of detail. Just becasuse GW decided to share a very early proof of concept doesn't mean that it what the final version will look like.
2018/12/19 15:14:44
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Perhaps they shouldn't just show a proof of concept for their big announcement and wait to show a polished trailer then?
For a first blush, this won't draw in anyone but us hardcore fan boys.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 15:17:32
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2018/12/19 15:33:19
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Look at the first ten episodes of helsreach and compare to the last 2. The last 2 are PS1 while the first 10 are inventive, daring and artistic. They use the medium of animation and create a feeling. The last 2 (similar to this trash movie) are standard old man CGI. All tech and no art.
Ahh ok, so the problem isn't GW bashing, it's just garden variety anti-CGI art snobbery.
Incorrect...it's bad CGI snobbery. Everything that was done with the first 10 could be replicated with CGI. Instead, episodes 11 & 12 were low end cut scenes quality of CGI. When talking CGI you have to differentiate technical ability versus artistic achievement. IMO, episodes 11 and 12 failed in both categories.
For an alternative see Into the Spiderverse. That had both technical and artistic achievements. Though, of course, the artistic achievement can always be reasonable disagreed on.
ender502
"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock
"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C.
2018/12/19 16:13:30
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Look at the first ten episodes of helsreach and compare to the last 2. The last 2 are PS1 while the first 10 are inventive, daring and artistic. They use the medium of animation and create a feeling. The last 2 (similar to this trash movie) are standard old man CGI. All tech and no art.
Ahh ok, so the problem isn't GW bashing, it's just garden variety anti-CGI art snobbery.
Incorrect...it's bad CGI snobbery. Everything that was done with the first 10 could be replicated with CGI. Instead, episodes 11 & 12 were low end cut scenes quality of CGI. When talking CGI you have to differentiate technical ability versus artistic achievement. IMO, episodes 11 and 12 failed in both categories.
For an alternative see Into the Spiderverse. That had both technical and artistic achievements. Though, of course, the artistic achievement can always be reasonable disagreed on.
ender502
Spiderverse looks terribly akin to a kid's preschool program so I'm not sure if you really know what your own opinion is.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/19 17:14:54
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Look at the first ten episodes of helsreach and compare to the last 2. The last 2 are PS1 while the first 10 are inventive, daring and artistic. They use the medium of animation and create a feeling. The last 2 (similar to this trash movie) are standard old man CGI. All tech and no art.
While I agree that the last two should have been done in the same style, the reason IMO is simply for artistic consistency. The quality (or lack thereof in your opinion) of the last two was probably technically better than the first 10 but was simply hidden by the moving charcoal drawing style overlaid onto the same assets and animation. Personally, considering that this is/was clearly a labor of love and done in spare time on free software (Source from Valve) with borrowed assets (looks to me like Space Marine video game models), even one episode would be a memorable project let alone 12+ so far.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 17:16:38
2018/12/19 17:45:06
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Platuan4th wrote: Perhaps they shouldn't just show a proof of concept for their big announcement and wait to show a polished trailer then?
For a first blush, this won't draw in anyone but us hardcore fan boys.
Ha. You say that but we do that all the time in development cycles.
I'm aware. The first set of Bumblebee trailers for instance were much rougher than the later ones.
However, they were still fairly close to the end product in overall style, so either the end product will look as dated or it'll look so different that they could have just done anything for the teaser.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2018/12/19 17:59:45
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Well, Eisenhorn would be a way more interesting subject for an animated series than Space Marines.
Yeah, that'd be pretty awesome. That would require GW to acknowledge that the Inquisition exists though, and they seem pretty iffy about that lately.
Most things would be more interesting than space marines. I'd like to see a movie adaptation of Dead Men Walking. Ooh, or they could take guard and do a Saving Private Ryan In Space series. How cool would that be?
Eldar would actually be super cool too. Maybe a show of the whole Gathering Storm kind of thing, that way you can have token marines as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 18:00:41
Ultimately the “quality” of the GC animation has got nothing to do with how state of the art the rendering or effects might be. It’s animation. Animation can be a hand drawn pencil sketch if it’s got artistic merit and good direction.
The direction, script, story, acting are all vastly more important.
2018/12/19 18:29:09
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Look at the first ten episodes of helsreach and compare to the last 2. The last 2 are PS1 while the first 10 are inventive, daring and artistic. They use the medium of animation and create a feeling. The last 2 (similar to this trash movie) are standard old man CGI. All tech and no art.
While I agree that the last two should have been done in the same style, the reason IMO is simply for artistic consistency. The quality (or lack thereof in your opinion) of the last two was probably technically better than the first 10 but was simply hidden by the moving charcoal drawing style overlaid onto the same assets and animation. Personally, considering that this is/was clearly a labor of love and done in spare time on free software (Source from Valve) with borrowed assets (looks to me like Space Marine video game models), even one episode would be a memorable project let alone 12+ so far.
I think the technical merit of a thing has to be based on how close the artist was to achieving their specific vision. The first 10 are no less technically better than the the last 2 in the same way a drawing takes no less technical skill to achieve than a painting or a CGI render takes technical skill to achieve.
This was definitely a labor of love and my hats off to the creator. It's more than i could have or would have done....I lack the technical skill with either a pencil, brush or mouse to achieve any of it! To me, the new stuff just doesn't work and is too akin to the same stuff GW has done before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Ultimately the “quality” of the GC animation has got nothing to do with how state of the art the rendering or effects might be. It’s animation. Animation can be a hand drawn pencil sketch if it’s got artistic merit and good direction.
The direction, script, story, acting are all vastly more important.
what you're talking about is a book then. Why animate it if it's the least important part? If the visuals don't work...it sinks the whole thing. Compare "L.A. Takedown" to "Heat". You'll see what I mean.
"The animation style is as brutal and iconic as the game itself"
Meh. I dont expect Blizzard cinematic quality but if the guy has GW backing this I expect better than this. of course he would need a bigger team. And no, "lets see how you do it" is not a valid counter to an official product.
As others have shown the small videos of "Space marine" are much better.
I'm the first one to defend GW, and I wont be as hyperbolic as others, but this does look, as an official product of a multimillion company, of low quality and dated. Of course people expect much more from an official product than a fan work.
But I understand is only a trailer, that Titan is literally the same fron Hellsreach, when it destroys the stompa.
And sorry but Warhammer would look phenomenal on a good done dark and gritty westerized anination style. Dont think all anime is screaming running ninjas (but to be honest that would be appropiate for dark eldars)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 18:38:13
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/12/19 18:37:11
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Spiderverse looks terribly akin to a kid's preschool program so I'm not sure if you really know what your own opinion is.
Incorrect. It looks like a comic book. Those aren't everyone's cup of tea so...
And I think you need to separate the artistic and technical styles. I'd suggest that for you, spiderverse while achieving technically did not suit your artistic taste. Which is IMO perfectly fair to say.
"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock
"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C.
2018/12/19 18:39:52
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/12/19 18:46:31
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Galas wrote: "The animation style is as brutal and iconic as the game itself"
Meh. I dont expect Blizzard cinematic quality but if the guy has GW backing this I expect better than this. of course he would need a bigger team. And no, "lets see how you do it" is not a valid counter to an official product.
As others have shown the small videos of "Space marine" are much better.
I'm the first one to defend GW, and I wont be as hyperbolic as others, but this does look, as an official product of a multimillion company, of low quality and dated. Of course people expect much more from an official product than a fan work.
But I understand is only a trailer, that Titan is literally the same fron Hellsreach, when it destroys the stompa.
And sorry but Warhammer would look phenomenal on a good done dark and gritty westerized anination style. Dont think all anime is screaming running ninjas (but to be honest that would be appropiate for dark eldars)
Agreed
Would have personally prefered a real anime than a CGI one
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
2018/12/19 19:30:02
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
This is slightly off topic but related to the previous few posts... Jes Goodwin's sketches for the Dark Eldar absolutely scream anime. They have the eyes and everything.
I totally agree that a series done with conventional animation would have been preferable, but also much more costly. They are probably getting the Helsreach guy for a steal. But if the reaction to this one is good then hopefully they'll continue to produce their own series and throw some more money at it.
2018/12/19 19:32:28
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
ender502 wrote: Incorrect...it's bad CGI snobbery. Everything that was done with the first 10 could be replicated with CGI. Instead, episodes 11 & 12 were low end cut scenes quality of CGI.
Helsreach was all done with Source Filmmaker (although the earlier episodes were post-processed with a sketch filter); yes, ultimately Source Filmmaker (or "SFM") is ultimately just a somewhat polished up version of a 2004 game engine (which has code that can eventually be traced back to the Quake engine, one of the earliest true 3D engines), but on next to no budget there's little other choice.
Rendering high quality ray-tracing CGI requires powerful hardware, and even then a single frame can take many minutes or hours to render; (Note that while Nvidia RTX is starting to bring some raytracing to real-time, this is simplified by orders of magnitude compared to full ray-tracing). If you want to render on a more modest computer in any reasonable time frame, then you need a game engine, and the Source engine, while dated, is the only engine that has an animation software built off it that's accessible to the common man.
This is part of why Helsreach put out a feature length first volume inside a year; Lord Inquisitor took several years to put out teasers and a short prologue, and now it seems the full thing (which still would have only been a short film) will never happen.
I should add though that Angels of Death will not be using SFM, but the general principle that CGI is expensive and time consuming still stands.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Ultimately the “quality” of the GC animation has got nothing to do with how state of the art the rendering or effects might be. It’s animation. Animation can be a hand drawn pencil sketch if it’s got artistic merit and good direction.
The direction, script, story, acting are all vastly more important.
Quite. As long as their engine has the graphical capabilities to not actually be limiting the storytelling, then I'd rather the budget is spent on other areas. Great CGI cannot rescue a poor story, mediocre script, incompetent acting or rubbish direction, but a great story can still be told with middling graphics.
The aforementioned Source engine brought several games that still rank in "Top 10 games of all time" lists, even though no-one would argue that the graphics stand up against the latest iterations of the Unreal or CryEngine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 21:34:32
Galas wrote: The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Hey guys - guess what the budget of Into the Spiderverse is? $90M and 142 animators.
"It took around a year for the production team to create 10 seconds of footage that they were happy with"
This? Probably well under $1M and a mere handful of creatives.
2018/12/19 20:30:52
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Not usually a fan of animated series but its nice to see them finally moving in this direction, it looks alright to me, If it does well it might well be the first of many, I hope so anyway.
2018/12/19 21:09:40
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Galas wrote: The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Hey guys - guess what the budget of Into the Spiderverse is? $90M and 142 animators.
"It took around a year for the production team to create 10 seconds of footage that they were happy with"
This? Probably well under $1M and a mere handful of creatives.
Oh yeah of course I won't expect this to have the quality and budget of Into the Spideverse. I wasn't trying to compare.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/12/19 21:29:59
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
Galas wrote: The animation style of Spiderverse is unusual but phenomenal. But as everything that diverges from the more common not everybody will like it.
But "I dont like something" =/="That thing is bad"
Hey guys - guess what the budget of Into the Spiderverse is? $90M and 142 animators.
"It took around a year for the production team to create 10 seconds of footage that they were happy with"
This? Probably well under $1M and a mere handful of creatives.
I don't think this argument doesn't hold...especially when discussing an artistic sensibility. Compare into the spiderverse to season 1 south park. Both are incredible and the budgets are hardly comparable.
"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock
"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C.
2018/12/19 23:28:19
Subject: Re:'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
streetsamurai wrote: that's from the same guy that did the trailer??? Weird, looks so much better
The problem here is that his fan animation was mostly done using models stol... er, borrowed from DoW II. That's why all models were generally high quality (for 2009 at least), marines wore different marks, and a lot of SFX and animation (especially lifted from game) was OK. Now he will have to do it all himself which will probably result in a lot of cut corners...
2018/12/20 00:13:23
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
SamusDrake wrote: The Ultramarine movie, from years back, didn't exactly win an oscar for animation, but the story was passable and the vocal talent was brilliant.
The vocal talent pulled in a considerable number of high profile British actors (names like Terence Stamp, John Hurt, Sean Pertwee and Donald Sumpter make for one of GW's most impressive casts*). The music was also pretty good.
* The only reasonable contender I can think of is Fire Warrior, which had Tom Baker, Sean Pertwee (again), Brian Blessed, Burt Kwouk and Peter Serafinowicz to its name.
The story, however, was absolute guff - "Let's send in a squad of complete newbie Ultramarines to do a job an entire company of Imperial Fists apparently failed; screw logic and the canon of how Space Marine recruitment and training works".
The Ultramarine movie, from years back, didn't exactly win an oscar for animation, but the story was passable and the vocal talent was brilliant.
Yeah, I was quite disappointed with that. It really did feel like they spent all their time and money on voice talent and then just let everything just passively fall into place with whatever they had left. I get more enjoyment from the Sax Marine (seriously... it makes me laugh every time) than I did from the UM movie.
2018/12/20 05:14:47
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
I’m not sure all this arguing about how the trailer looks matters.
Have any of you saying it’s bad listened to his update?
I’m feeling that’s more a proof of concept, as he says they’re discussing lots, like animation style and more.
They haven’t started work on it or anything, he said they don’t even know where they’re gonna be based to do the work yet..
Just a thought
2018/12/20 05:41:23
Subject: 'Angels of Death' animated series on the way from GW...
When offered free beer the appropriate response is to say "Cheers!"
