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Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Removed - BrookM


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:

Just because something is in English doesn't mean it's more valuable as a term than something that's not.

But it is. As long as words have meaning and there is cultural background to it, that the majority understands then they are. On the other hand if a word requires a in depth knowladge of culture that isn't even real, but invented. Then the name is not worth more then the sound of it. Want an example? What does the word Mąciwoda say as a description of someone? unless your slavic you would not now. On the other hand something as crude as "edbursta gives everyone with basic knowladge of english what the thing is about.


Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/06 17:07:12


 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





The Shire(s)

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's a reason the pieces in chess are called the king and the queen even if that doesn't immediately tell you what they do, and not the "shalixthli" and the "m'carnathe" or whatever else - the names they do have tell you literally nothing until you know what they do, but once you do know, having those names in a recognisable language helps associate an identity with the ruleset attached. The relatable names do help from a gameplay perspective, even if they aren't a good restriction to place on the lore, surely we're able to acknowledge the two different aspects of 40k here?


So what about a rook*? Without any context, a rook is a type of bird, so the Chess piece is a... fast moving piece that can fly over others? Moves around in unruly flocks? Eats carrion?

What about pawns? The modern English understand of what a pawn is is heavily associated with Chess- pawns are expendable units because they are expendable in Chess, not the other way around. Maybe in the past pawn was a standalone word, I don't know the etymology of the term, but nowadays it is only understood within the context of how the pieces are used in Chess.


*Yes, I am aware that many players call them castles, but that isn't correct.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/05 14:10:40


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Karol wrote:
 CATACLYSMUS wrote:

Why so serious?


Nowadays? Aren't people in the western europe losing jobs for using the wrong words or describing stuff in the wrong way? Seems like an odd question to ask.


Cadia is just as foreign as Bork'an. Pretending that one is somehow innately more memorably or descriptive than the other is simply subjective at best, and ignorant at worst.


But that isn't true. A word that is clearly ment for your own language and has roots in it, will always be absorbed better then something that comes out of a foreign language. Cadia has a nice latin sound to it . A cadus is a bottle, and a bottle was kind of in the neck of a chaos realm bottle. Borkan on the other hand is a persian or med word, which makes it foreign in nature. And all animals, including humans, do not like foreing things. So yeah for an europans a culexus assasin aka the mosquitto has culturaly a better hidden meaning then a gnat. Even if both words describe the same thing.


Removed

Imperial names have latin roots. Other factions' nonsense words have roots in other languages.

"Gue'vesa" was brought up as a "badwrong nonsense word" earlier in the thread. Human rebels fighting a communistic revolution against an empire are called a name that sounds like "Guevara". If "Cadia" is a fine word because you can look at it and realize it has latin roots in "cadus" or "bottle" as a reference to them being a "bottleneck" against chaos, then you can notice that the anti-imperial rebels armed and supported by a rival communist superpower being called "Guevaras" is also a cute clever thing. It's similar to the eldar "Monkeigh" joke.

There are some...I'd say pretty obvious egyptian language roots in the Necron language (I mean...phaeron...wonder what that word is supposed to look like...) and honestly, I'm sure there are other roots to the words they used that people just have not figured out yet (someone earlier in the thread brought up something about "mephrit" being a bastardization of an egyptian word).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Removed

I will 100% agree that every time a nonsense word appears alone on a datasheet without:

-it being a thing that has existed for a long time
-additional words providing context
-easy to spot linguistic roots making it clever

then it is badwrongthing and should be CONDEMNED!

I have compiled an exhaustive list of all instances in the game where that occurs:

1) Y'verna and R'vara or whatever the tau forgeworld battlesuits are called.

2) that appears to be it.

All tyranid names have latinate roots, all subfactions do not appear on datasheets, all totally nonsense-named special characters have descriptors (Trayzn the Infinite, Anraykyr the Traveler) or linguistic roots (Lelith Hesperax, The Yncarne) or have been around since early editions (Robute Guilliman, Asurman, etc)

So, congrats OP, thanks to your efforts to make sure everything Imperial was labeled Good and Fine for some reason, you have identified a teeny tiny, microscopically small Thing You Are Allowed To Whine About!

Go nuts! Have fun!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/06 17:09:42


 
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 15:51:46


The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Excommunicatus wrote:
TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".


Yeah, because when we say "foreign" we're talking about "from other countries on earth" in the context of this thread, not "from factions in this game you are personally less familiar with."

I think (i freakin' hope, man....I hope...) it is not a controversial thing to say to say that in general, people who play 40k are pretty trained at this point to try and look for Latin word roots in their favorite units, weapon names, whatever.

So nonsense names like the one Karol so helpfully demonstrated earlier like "Cadian" that have a latinate root to them, people will eventually figure out and understanding of what the words mean will percolate through the community.

But the reason people know "Ghazghkull Marg'eret Thatcher" but not "Gue'vara" is not because they're not equally cute little wordplay tricks, but because Ghazghkull is a whole hell of a lot more widely discussed than Gue'vesas.

The intricasies of Tau lore and Necron lore is less widely discussed among the playerbase, and you're less willing to give them license to use nonsense words than you are with imperial or chaos factions for that reason. They are more foreign to you.

That's where the basic disagreement of the thread comes in. You've got someone demanding that the less well-known factions not have any gameplay-impacting elements that aren't purely descriptive (when the vast, vast majority of those elements ARE ALREADY purely descriptive) while being perfectly 100% A-OK with the thousand foot thick heap of lore that's been built up around the common, well known factions, and having rules and wargear in the game that only makes sense to the players if you have gone to Space Marine Novel #236 and read the extended edition director's cut.
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





The Shire(s)

the_scotsman wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
TIL that I, a human (I am advised and verily believe it to be true) who was born and lived in Britain for thirty years; who now lives in Canada; who exclusively dates Russians and Ukrainians and who maintains a plog based almost entirely on Soviet history, do not like "foreign things".


Yeah, because when we say "foreign" we're talking about "from other countries on earth" in the context of this thread, not "from factions in this game you are personally less familiar with."

I think (i freakin' hope, man....I hope...) it is not a controversial thing to say to say that in general, people who play 40k are pretty trained at this point to try and look for Latin word roots in their favorite units, weapon names, whatever.

So nonsense names like the one Karol so helpfully demonstrated earlier like "Cadian" that have a latinate root to them, people will eventually figure out and understanding of what the words mean will percolate through the community.

But the reason people know "Ghazghkull Marg'eret Thatcher" but not "Gue'vara" is not because they're not equally cute little wordplay tricks, but because Ghazghkull is a whole hell of a lot more widely discussed than Gue'vesas.

The intricasies of Tau lore and Necron lore is less widely discussed among the playerbase, and you're less willing to give them license to use nonsense words than you are with imperial or chaos factions for that reason. They are more foreign to you.

That's where the basic disagreement of the thread comes in. You've got someone demanding that the less well-known factions not have any gameplay-impacting elements that aren't purely descriptive (when the vast, vast majority of those elements ARE ALREADY purely descriptive) while being perfectly 100% A-OK with the thousand foot thick heap of lore that's been built up around the common, well known factions, and having rules and wargear in the game that only makes sense to the players if you have gone to Space Marine Novel #236 and read the extended edition director's cut.


I am fairly sure Excommunicatus's comment was solely referring to the poster(s) saying that people don't like foreign, which of course is a massive generalisation. As in- Excommunicatus was being sarcastic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/06 16:57:11


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

The_Scotsman, this is the new form of Imperial Privilege.

Not only everything from the tabletop has to be adderent to them, also from the background.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just bloody well lock this gak of a thread already.
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

Haighus wrote: As in- Excommunicatus was being sarcastic.


Да.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Indomitable Hell Rider of Glorious Renown






102nd Expeditionary Fleet

Did some cleaning up, pruned some of the posts that were of some value to the thread.

To all participants, kindly remember that Rule #1, to be polite is not optional and to yes, please report bad posts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 17:31:18


Be ash and cinder forevermore!

V - 11 | T - 3 | 敗 - 40

DakkaDakka | Where you thank the mods for baning you! 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Galas wrote:
The_Scotsman, this is the new form of Imperial Privilege.

Not only everything from the tabletop has to be adderent to them, also from the background.


It just boggles my mind how it doesn't matter if something is actually accurate or not.

Look at one of the principle complaints of the OP: Tau units have nonsense names in Forgeworld?

What is the actual Tau Forgeworld Roster?

Shas'O R'myr: Named character. Effectively the same as "Sergeant Harker".
Shas'O R'Alai: Another named character.

Commander in XV81 Crisis Battlesuit
Commander in XV84 Crisis Battlesuit
DX-4 Technical Drones
XV9 Hazard Support Team

XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit
XV107 R'Varna Battlesuit

KX 139 Tau'Nar Supremacy Armor
Tetra Scout Speeder Team
Piranha Light Skimmer
Heavy Gun Drone Squadron

The Y'vahra and R'varna are the only two that I can definitely say "I see a potential issue here". There's nothing about the word "R'Varna" that suggests it's an anti-tank weapon platform versus the anti-infantry that seems to be the "Y'vahra". But "Supremacy Armor" definitely tells me at least as much, if not more, than "Stormsurge" - I see "Supremacy Armor" and I'm expecting it to be the biggest, baddest battlesuit they've got. "Tau'nar" means as much to me as "Castellan" or "Kytan", it's just a word, but it comes with a description afterwards, which we've seen from other posters in the thread makes it OK.

Others are totally self-explanatory except for the "XV-whatever" number designation. Which like...if that throws you off, I don't know what to say? DX-4 Technical Drones sound like a repair unit. Oh look, they are. I'm not gonna insist that the complainers in the thread are getting their minds boggled by "Heavy Gun Drone Squadron" because it would be ridiculous and disingenuous of me to pick out 1 or 2 examples out of a vast model catalog that fit a narrative I'm trying to construct about a particular faction's stuff without actually looking at the totality of the naming conventions.

Wouldn't it?

But if you're gonna give a nonsense name a pass if you can figure out a pretty easy latinate root or some other well-known root to the word that clues you in on what it does (I would hope that most clever boys could look at "Canoptek" units from Necrons and realize they just referenced canopic jars from egyptian tombs, for example)

and if you're gonna give a nonsense name a pass if you have other descriptive words after it to tell you what it does, i.e. "Catachan Jungle Fighters"

and if you're gonna give a pass to proper names, like "Robute Guilliman"

then you have created a situation where there is no trend towards a worrying thing. Like, at all. Two units in the entire Tau catalog don't hit one of those exceptions. No units in the necron catalog do. Or the Drukhari catalog. Or the Eldar catalog. Or the genestealer Cult catalog. Or the harlequin catalog. You're just talking about two forgeworld battlesuit units, and Necron and Tau subfaction names. It's all you've got.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mmmpi wrote:

Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.

It wasn't a and e. It is ą and ę. different letters, sound nothing like e or a. But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.

Basilisk is dangerous, acceptable name for an artilery unit. I mean no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.
As devil fish goes I always though that they were called that way, because of the horned fish from amazon that keep their young inside their mouth. But I could be wrong no idea if they are called devil fish in english too.



am fairly sure Excommunicatus's comment was solely referring to the poster(s) saying that people don't like foreign, which of course is a massive generalisation.

All mamels have a separate reaction outside of the normal flight or figth system. That is dedicted only to reactions to stuff that looks kind of a similar, but different. Just put a plush squirl that is natural colour and watch what squirls do it. With humans it causes funny reactions too. In tokyo they instaled human looking subway helpers. Made them as real as possible, thinking that interaction with human looking helper would be better for people looking for help. What they found out is that the very human helpers were making people uneasy, and they had to make them more robot like, so that people would actualy start using them.
When you have a cat or other animal, you will get no sleep and it won't calm down until they check every nook and crany of a new unknown place. Even in books and film, what people like the most is seeing the same story being told over and over again. It is also why any changes to canon is so bad recived, and why people are ready to come to blows about stuff like comic lore or how do the real batman bat ears should look like. On a more daily basis it explains stuff like why food that was feed to you as a kid, has the best taste and people have litteral dreams about home bread or soup made by mom.

   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Kansas, United States

Karol wrote:
But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.


"All words are made up."

To put that another way, at one point, Hydra wasn't a word. Someone coined that word. Then it was translated into another language (or seven). Then it was adopted by one guy to be an evil organization in one publication of comics.

The point here is, one person making up one word can make that word a thing. We shouldn't discourage that kind of creativity, even if we think it's not very creative, just because it's harder for us to engage with initially. Maybe, fifty, a hundred, a thousand years down the line, the T'au Borkan Sept will mean something totally different to someone else, and it will all be because of Games Workshop.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Kansas, United States

Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.


Words ARE made up. At one point, "bread" was just a noise someone made. At one point EVERYTHING was just a noise, and they evolved to become something more. NOW we know what you mean when you say "bread" (assuming we're both English speakers), but there are people in the world today that if you say "bread," they won't know what you're talking about. One type of words has a meaning NOW, and one type of words doesn't have a meaning NOW, but that doesn't mean they can't or won't. They can (and will).

There are people in the world today that know exactly what Borkan means. Just because you're not one of them, doesn't mean the word has no value.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.

It doesn't matter how a word started. One type of words have a meaning and other do not. Using a bunch of letters glued up, that have no meaning, just for shock value, make as much sense as a guy rolling himself on a canvas while drenched in paint and calling what he does art.

Borkan sept means nothing to no one, because , and lets hope this isn't going to come back and bite me in the ass with this being some word from a turkish dialect, Borkan is not a thing. A devil and a fish is a thing. Even a devil fish is a thing. This gives the words and their combination meaning, and meaning means power. Otherwise we are just inventing stuff, nothing has meaning and this a stright way to postmodern view of anything. And when we reach that, then there is nothing to talk about, because everything is just a bunch of illusions created by the emanations of people minds.


You are aware that one of the strengths of the English language, specifically a product of the Germanic influences upon it is it's ability to make up new words right? You're aware that the only thing actually defining those new words is context right? You're aware that many words we use today didn't even exist 50, or 100 years ago right? You know that a kleenex is a brand name, made up, that has wormed it's way into the common vernacular to mean a tissue for blowing your nose?

I mean, you contradict yourself in your own post, if words aren't made up then how does, as you stated, 'a word start'? Is it immaculate conception? Did the word spring forth in a moment of divine inspiration? Did god appear like a Monty Python cartoon and scream, 'STOP CALLING IT THAT! Use this word instead!'?

So yes, words are made up, their etymology may be very old, but imagining that bread or sun has some inherent meaning because of something inherent to it's sound I guess, is, well, a bit silly.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Dandelion wrote:
Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Kansas, United States

Pleasestop wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


Yes, and the counter-argument is that Shass'O'shassero is just as valid, also "things should be English or close to" is extremely Anglocentric. Expand your mind.
   
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Pleasestop wrote:

Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want.


Why should the table top only be in proper English?
   
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Vigo. Spain.

You people should read Darklands rulebook...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Pleasestop wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


"Shas'o" is at least as valid as "Exarch", "Autarch", "Primus" or "Tempestor" - they're literally all just made up ranks. Shas'o R'myr is a guy's name and his rank, pretty much identical to "Sergeant Telion". Almost literally nothing in the Tau codex has neither an english name nor an english descriptor, the ONLY things you can pull out are proper names...which...like if you can't grant that, that's just silly, and exactly two forgeworld models.

Forgeworld, company of such memorable names as CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and ADEPTIMUS CUSTODES EXCELORPTIORIUMUSTICAR MAXIMO. Saying "Forgeworld is sometimes bad at naming" is pretty non-controversial.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Give me completely meaningless or subtly coded xenos names over the cringeworthy vomit of hideously obvious fake latin pouring out of the imperium with each new release.

"Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 01:00:17


 
   
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Exarch are late period roman political ranks, similar to military governors. Also a low rank member of the Easter Orthodox Church.

An Autarch is someone with complete (autocratic) power.

Both don't quite fit their 40K uses.
   
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Iowa


"Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"


Corrections-

In High Gothic—
Militarum Tempestus: Tempestor Prime with Canna Militarum, Reporting For Duty!

In Low Gothic—
Stormtroopers: Tempestor Prime with Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!

It’s funny, because this is basically simplified in the way OP wanted, I believe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 01:40:49


If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:

Well, as I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, I have no clue what Maciwoda means, though thanks to your previous post on a and e, I have a better idea on how to pronounce it. But as a native English speaker, I'd only know what 'edbursta means because I've played 40K for the last 20 years.

English names for xenos/non-English humans can be useful, but only if the English name has something to do with what it does. Changing the name of a skyray to a S'krai wouldn't change much, because nothing about the word skyray implies guided missile AA tank. Same with Devil Fish. Nothing about it screams APC. For IG vehicles, Basilisk is actually misleading, because the classic basilisk had to see what it was turning to stone, while the tank is a self-propelled artillery piece, which doesn't. So if the name doesn't matter, then the 'language' the name is doesn't matter either.

It wasn't a and e. It is ą and ę. different letters, sound nothing like e or a. But what I was trying to point out that, if someone slams 7 more or less random letters and signs
the reaction to them is always going to be weaker recived, then words someone can actually understand.
Cpt America saying Hail Hydra makes youtube blow up. Him saying Hail Shre"hksh"rtik means nothing. Making existing names look different, when everyone is going to read them the normal way, seems even a stranger idea. Why do it, other then to protect IP. A cow does not becomes cooler, because someone calls it a kow.

Basilisk is dangerous, acceptable name for an artilery unit. I mean no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.
As devil fish goes I always though that they were called that way, because of the horned fish from amazon that keep their young inside their mouth. But I could be wrong no idea if they are called devil fish in english too.



I know it wasn't a direct a or e, I was just lazy about copy/paste. Besides, when written in English, you use the a/e letters anyway.
No. Not everyone will. As you can see by this thread alone, roughly 60% of the responses are in favor of 'xenos' names, rather than straight English, because it adds to the feel of the army. Changing the names would in many ways be the same as me (an American) insisting everyone in Poland call their capital Warsaw rather than Warszawa.
Captain America saying Hail Hydra made Marvel fans on youtube blow up. There happen to be a lot of them. But the phrase and usage is meaningless to people who aren't fans of at least the movies. And that's in English. Context is everything. As for cow/kow, you obviously didn't grow up in 90's America, where yes, spelling words that way actually was considered cool. Actually, come to think of it, L337 is pretty much the same thing...for people who understood the context.

A basilisk is dangerous. But calling a self-propelled artillery piece that isn't very descriptive. Warhogs are known for their toughness and tenasity. Warthog is only a nickname anyway, the actual official name is Thunderbolt II. A devil fish (in the anglo-world) is a type of stingray.
   
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Karol wrote:

no one has a problem with A-10 Warthog, and I think we can all agree that hogs are not know for their ability to fly.


It wasn't named after a species of heretofore unknown flying porcine mammals.

It is officially the A-10 Thunderbolt II. The "Warthog" name was coined because it's a "Pig-ugly" aircraft that spends a lot of time with it's snout in the trough (like any ground attack capable aircraft - also like the F-111 - referred to as an "aardvark" for the same reasons ).

I'm 50.
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
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 chromedog wrote:
The "Warthog" name was coined because it's a "Pig-ugly" aircraft that spends a lot of time with it's snout in the trough (like any ground attack capable aircraft - also like the F-111 - referred to as an "aardvark" for the same reasons ).


And yet, when you really need one, its one of the most beautiful sights you'll ever see.
   
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Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Karol wrote:
No words are not made up. When I write bread, you know what bread is. When I say sun, you know what a sun is. When someone names his tank a Shrak'sh'er it means nothing. It is a bounch of sounds.


Words are literally just sounds that we (the speakers) attribute meaning to. If I don't speak a language, every sound made in that language has no meaning to me. If I didn't speak English, "bread" would be just as meaningless as "bork'an". In effect, words are invented to associate a sound to an idea, and they only work when everyone involved makes the same association.

To bring it back to 40k, I ( as a Tau player) am very comfortable with tau names because I read about them all the time. O'Shovah and O'Shaserra both hold meaning to me because I associate them with characters and I know what the root words are: Shovah = farsighted , Shaserra = shadowsun. I've even dabbled in giving my homebrew characters authentic Tau names because it feels better: e.g. Shas"O'Res'Ka has Shas = Fire Caste member, O = commander , Res = powerful, Ka = strike which tells you this particular commander probably prefers tactics using extremely concentrated force, and I would hate to lose that kind of depth. So, reducing tau to normal names would just make them less interesting as a faction, not more.


So you named your character Commander Powerstrike. Cool.

Most of the argument here are that on table top, things should be English or close to, and then in fluff they can be whatever you want. The character is referred to as commander Shadowsun, no Shass'O'shassero.


"Shas'o" is at least as valid as "Exarch", "Autarch", "Primus" or "Tempestor" - they're literally all just made up ranks. Shas'o R'myr is a guy's name and his rank, pretty much identical to "Sergeant Telion". Almost literally nothing in the Tau codex has neither an english name nor an english descriptor, the ONLY things you can pull out are proper names...which...like if you can't grant that, that's just silly, and exactly two forgeworld models.

Forgeworld, company of such memorable names as CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and ADEPTIMUS CUSTODES EXCELORPTIORIUMUSTICAR MAXIMO. Saying "Forgeworld is sometimes bad at naming" is pretty non-controversial.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Give me completely meaningless or subtly coded xenos names over the cringeworthy vomit of hideously obvious fake latin pouring out of the imperium with each new release.

"Militarum Tempestus Tempestor With Tempestus Command Rod, Reporting For Duty!"


Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?

We're making the same damn argument! Tempestor and Adeptus Astartes and all the other gibberish is dumb, whether it's faux Latin or whatever Tau is supposed to be! Stormtrooper Sargent with Command Rod vs Militarism Tempests Tempestor with Tempest Command rod.

Same for Commander Shadowsun vs Shas'o whatever.

Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words -- however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.
   
Made in us
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Pleasestop wrote:
Right? I don't get why your being such an ass, or why you seem to be making my argument for me Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


Because the only logic to your argument is that you want comfortable, familiar, anglo-centric words that jibe with your rather narrow definition of what should be acceptable language.

Pleasestop wrote:
We're making the same damn argument!


No, you're really not. You're making an arbitrary judgement based upon what you perceive to be nonsense, he's pointing out that even the words you approve of because they 'make sense', are arbitrary, made up words, so your entire premise is a product of cognitive or cultural bias.

Pleasestop wrote:
Also, Shas'o isn't as valid as exarch, autarch, or Sargent as those are real English words


No, they're archaic Italian words, or French in the case of sergeant, but your cognitive or cultural bias is such that they seem ok to you.

Pleasestop wrote:
however both Tempestor and Primus are dumb and made up, although less dumb and made up as Shas'o, since that includes a ' which isn't used in noncontractive English words, and is liberally thrown around in Tau names instead of spaces, making it even harder to know how to pronounce them.


You mean names like, I don't know, D'Artagnan (he's kind of a well known classical European character)? Or any number of names that stick apostrophes in the middle of them all over Europe?

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pleasestop wrote:
Everytime you post only to angrily post that I don't get it?


Because every time you reply with a xenophobic screed about how your, and only your, infantile linguistic preferences are valid you make it abundantly clear that you don't get it.
   
 
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