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Made in us
Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





You guys must really hate ethnic names. 'Why doesn't your last name correspond to your profession? Are you savages?!'

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Quasistellar wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
sound reasoning


This times about a quadrillion. It’s the same problem amateur authors run into trying to use weird unpronounceable names in their fiction in the name of just being different. Nothing takes me out of a setting more than a word that I literally cannot imagine how to pronounce.

I would note that sometimes it's fitting - a Lovecraftian entity having a name i can't pronounce makes it more Lovecraftian. Which applies to some Greater Demons, but not to much else in 40k.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
You guys must really hate ethnic names. 'Why doesn't your last name correspond to your profession? Are you savages?!'


Wow, a you must be a racist post!

That's great, and definitely not a violation of any rules.

How is it so hard to see why some players would prefer things on the tabletop to have descriptive names?


Like the Gue'vesa unit from forgeworld? If I said, hey, my Gue'vesa are attacking, do you know what that would be?

Hint: A Guardsmen unit for T'au. So, uh, why not T'au Human Auxiliaries? Or T'au Converted Infantry? Isn't that so much easier? I mean, I know most people don't play that often, maybe 1-2 times a month, and don't play all the armies, so it just makes it easier for everyone if it isn't in some nonreal language
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Protoculturist






RVA

Easy now, fellas. Keep in mind that Rule One around here is Be Polite. Thanks!

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pleasestop wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Mmmpi wrote:
Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


The only reason you know what a Bolter is is because they told you what it is, not because the name makes sense or instantly evokes its function. Outside of context I'd probably assume a Bolter is a piece of construction equipment.

Seem to remember a recent movie quote. 'All words are made up words.'

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pleasestop wrote:


How is it so hard to see why some players would prefer things on the tabletop to have descriptive names?

It's not. But you've been acting like your way is the only way. It's not. People have told you that they like having non-human names for things in the game.


Like the Gue'vesa unit from forgeworld? If I said, hey, my Gue'vesa are attacking, do you know what that would be?


If I didn't, I'd ask my opponent to point it out. Once he did that, and took a moment to fill me in, play would continue.

Hint: A Guardsmen unit for T'au. So, uh, why not T'au Human Auxiliaries? Or T'au Converted Infantry? Isn't that so much easier? I mean, I know most people don't play that often, maybe 1-2 times a month, and don't play all the armies, so it just makes it easier for everyone if it isn't in some nonreal language


Because Gue'Vesa sounds like a Tau unit? As has been said, quite a few people like the 'non-standard' names, and have absolutely no issue with running into them on the table. Easier isn't always better. A bit of complexity can and quite a bit of spice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


The only reason you know what a Bolter is is because they told you what it is, not because the name makes sense or instantly evokes its function. Outside of context I'd probably assume a Bolter is a piece of construction equipment.

Seem to remember a recent movie quote. 'All words are made up words.'


I'm learning Japanese. There are a lot of times where every word feels made up.

And yeah, my first thought for a bolter was a lightning gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 16:17:20


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


I assumed I was white and american, not you. Obviously while being sarcastic, but I am white.

Chimera, Manticore, Wyvern and Basilisk convey identical meaning to me as Riptide, Broadside, Stormsurge and Ghostkeel - basically, they establish a naming convention for a faction's vehicles.

Gauss Flayer, Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon and Heavy Gauss Cannon mean exactly as much to me as Lasgun, Lascannon, and multilaser - basically, they tell me it's a type of gun, and mentally, I can probably line them up in terms of probable size and function.

Same deal with 'nids. An acid maw probably melts armor. I'll bet you can tell me what a Crushing Claw is good at versus a Scything Talon! if you tell me something is a Stranglethorn Cannon I'm going to get it kills infantry better than tanks and is a big gun.

You'll notice that when you have any kind of a point with your argument - i.e. that the thing being named needs to be swiftly identified by players in a game - the names are, almost always, named exactly that way. Tau Missiles aren't called o'slgh'wlhlirhglv's, they're called missiles. You know what a missile does.

And when you don't have a point - a subfaction is not a thing that needs to be quickly accessed and identified, it's a background element that you establish prior to playing the game, so it just needs a name - the names are often just nonsense words, and usually they're established to culturally code a faction.

When you say "which one of these is a Nihilakh Necron, which one of these is a T'au sept shas'ui, and which one of these is an Adeptus Custode" and you put down an egyptian-coded robot, an asian-coded mecha suit, and a roman-coded warrior, you know from the sounds of the names which is which because you associate those linguistic patterns with the culture the miniatures are inspired by. Not every subfaction can use a color scheme, because that would get incredibly stupid incredibly fast. They often do! But they can't always.You know what color a Blood Angel probably is. You don't know what color an Alpha Legion is. That's OK. It's a visual medium. Your brain is super good at remembering colors and associating them with words!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 16:20:56


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Bharring wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
sound reasoning


This times about a quadrillion. It’s the same problem amateur authors run into trying to use weird unpronounceable names in their fiction in the name of just being different. Nothing takes me out of a setting more than a word that I literally cannot imagine how to pronounce.

I would note that sometimes it's fitting - a Lovecraftian entity having a name i can't pronounce makes it more Lovecraftian. Which applies to some Greater Demons, but not to much else in 40k.


Which is kinda okay. . . It’s when you get main characters or major things that get written out really often that it’s a problem.

I’m going to admit after initially being interested in Tau (excuse me, T’au) I kinda lost interest after trying to read about shas’ui and other various groupings of letters bisected by an apostrophe.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Mmmpi wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


An Ultramarine is a blue Crayola crayon.
Space Wolves are the guys wearing wolves, riding wolves and using wolf themed gear.
Wraith guard is perfect. If it didn't have wraith in the name I would never take the Eldar vehicles to be "undead" because their design doesn't scream undead.
Lyanden/Borktor/whatever are fine as a name for the planet/race/faction/whatever but don't convey any real meaning -- Lyanden Ghostwarriors works like, say, Vostroyan Firstborn as conveying a place of origin (Vostroya) and flavor text (Firstborn)

Bieltan windriders would do the same, and, like, I don't have any clue what any of the necrons do, but assuming mephrit is the one with the more powerful lasers, the Mephrit Sun Dynasty would convey that easier.

Much like the sister of battle orders don't convey their roles either - Order of the Argent Shroud is a stupid name, table top speaking, because that actually tells us very little, where "Bloods Angels" is an example of a great, if slightly cheesy name -- It suggests they are the red army, they are better than human, and hints at a vampire theme. Space Wolves does the same, if even less subtle, and black Templar is again a great faction because if you say "Black Templar" and point at a collection of all the 40k factions, I'd beat 9/10 times the person would identify them correctly, with the 1/10 going to either Grey Knights (again, super name) or the Deathwatch, who's name is less good, but still conveys their role.

As an aside, this obsviously doesn't go for Unique Character names, otherwise you end up with names like "Canis Wolfborn". And while Sobriquets are cool, if everyone is "Luke Wilson, The Exterminator of Grand Vengeance" it just begins to blend together. It works better as "Grand Master Voldus and Logan Grimnar" vs "Commander Shadowsun and Lillith Hersperax"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 17:09:48


 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spoiler:
Pleasestop wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, real words convey meaning, but at least in terms of subfactions, almost none of that meaning is translated through the words.

the ONLY REASON you know that the "white scars" are fast, biker space marines is because that's been jammed into your head.

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.

You read the fluff background, you digest it, and you associate it with the sub-faction.

In all instance where you're not supposed to read the fluff and associate it with the name, descriptive conventions prevail in all the factions you're pissing and moaning about.

Pulse: Carbine, Rifle, Blaster, Bomb, Cannon.

You have these guns set out in front of you, I'll bet you 9/10 people can correctly identify which one is which based on the name.

That's because all these names are meant to evoke associations, and quickly allow for identification.

Iron Warrior, Word Bearer, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

All these names are meant to BE ASSOCIATED with a color scheme and fluff. The fluff and color scheme comes FIRST, the name association comes SECOND. That means you don't need to convey any meaning with the name, and you can freely allow it to exist in the context of the background. Not every single subfaction needs to be called "The Green Sneakies!" because that's not the direction the association needs to work, and honestly, it makes the setting feel flatter. After all, everyone loves it now that the "Space Wolves" are a bunch of yiffing hairy dogmen instead of what they used to be, a viking-coded space marine chapter with associations to the fenris iconography of the norse apocalypse myth, right?

You can convey some small meanings, as a bonus, like Hive Fleet Kraken having many tendrils, or Hive Fleet Hydra having a mutation where if you kill a tendril it splits off, but those meanings are primarily going to be again where you first read the background, then go back to the name and think "oh, that's clever".

After all, show of hands, who just, oooh, just GRINDS THEIR GEARS that this pretentious donkey-cave JRR tolkien made all these MEANINGLESS, POINTLESS languages that add NOTHING to the story of Lord of the Rings, like, what even is the POINT of calling it "lothlorien" instead of "The Forest of the Tall and Magic Tree Folk" - what, am I going to go make up a fake dictionary with fake language and read a book about fake culture to find out what the heck that word means? NO! Words need to mean things to ME, specifically an english speaking white person! Invented languages never add depth to a literary world!


Way to a) Be a jackass
And b) Assume I am white?

But also, like, all I am saying is this isn't a fething novel -- it's a table top game. Names should be vaguely communicative to make thing easier for the players involved.

After all, Ultramarines are blue, white Scars are white, black Templar are black and whatever.

When I say "My battle sister does "x"" you know it's the unit that looks like a warrior nun.

Tanks get names like "Predator" or "Whirlwind" etc to convey that they are a big scary unit, and not a little soldier.

Again, using names like Y'havra and Shasoisui are meaningless in any regard to someone who hasn't read the fething novels. If in the books, you want to do that stuff go ahead. But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.


No, he has a good point. The stuff that actually needs to be easily identified is. What most weapons are for example. Some older units, such as many of the Eldar ones use English 'translations', but use 'native' character and subfaction names. Hell, most of the eldar vehicles have eldar names, but only in the fluff. The game just uses the English version instead. Because the army is from the 80's. You're issue is a subjective one. You have an issue with the naming scheme. But it does add character to the factions and help makes them seem different. What is a more evocative enemy on the battlefield? A: White armored Firewarrior Tau, or B: the forces of the Bor'kan Sept? Which sounds like a real opponent, rather than a place holder?

No one has assumed you're white. I feel like most of us by this point assume you have an Anglophone (English speaking) view point however.

Names are communicative. You fight my Iyanden Wraithguard armed with Wraithcannons, led by a Spiritseer. That tells you that they have something to do with death and fighting (wraith+guard), they have nasty guns (wraith+cannon) and are led by someone who might have necromantic powers (Spirit+Seer) all from the faction Iyanden. Do you really need to know what Iyanden is? Is it relevant to the game? Outside of knowing it's a faction with a special rule, nope. But it's far cooler than saying "Undead Space Elves faction".

Ultramarines are blue because you looked it up, or someone told you. When I first learned about them I though it just meant they were a really good (skilled) space marine faction.
Do you automacially know that? Because until you learn otherwise, there's nothing in the name that's specifically only a nun. It wouldn't be hard to convince a new player that they are actually a Space Wolf shield maiden style unit.
Same with Space wolves. Until you look them up, nothing about their name says vikings. My friends and I thought they were mercenaries until we learned other wise (and were disappointed).

In the real world most people think of drones when they think of a predator in a military context. Rather far from a tank. Same with a whirlwind. Nothing in the name suggests vehicle, let alone a self-propelled rocket launcher.

Names like Y'Havra and Shasoisui add character. They, at a glance tell the other player that it's not just another space marine or IG sub faction. As for this claim:
But 90% of the players are not reading the fluff for the armies, much less for all the armies.

That's rather subjective. In my area, most players pick their casual play armies entirely on the fluff. Most of the older players can discuss the fluff for most of the armies, and most of the newer players make at least some attempt to learn more on their own.

Just because you don't find value behind the use of non-English names, doesn't mean that people as a whole don't.


An Ultramarine is a blue Crayola crayon.
Space Wolves are the guys wearing wolves, riding wolves and using wolf themed gear.
Wraith guard is perfect. If it didn't have wraith in the name I would never take the Eldar vehicles to be "undead" because their design doesn't scream undead.
Lyanden/Borktor/whatever are fine as a name for the planet/race/faction/whatever but don't convey any real meaning -- Lyanden Ghostwarriors works like, say, Vostroyan Firstborn as conveying a place of origin (Vostroya) and flavor text (Firstborn)

Bieltan windriders would do the same, and, like, I don't have any clue what any of the necrons do, but assuming mephrit is the one with the more powerful lasers, the Mephrit Sun Dynasty would convey that easier.

Much like the sister of battle orders don't convey their roles either - Order of the Argent Shroud is a stupid name, table top speaking, because that actually tells us very little, where "Bloods Angels" is an example of a great, if slightly cheesy name -- It suggests they are the red army, they are better than human, and hints at a vampire theme. Space Wolves does the same, if even less subtle, and black Templar is again a great faction because if you say "Black Templar" and point at a collection of all the 40k factions, I'd beat 9/10 times the person would identify them correctly, with the 1/10 going to either Grey Knights (again, super name) or the Deathwatch, who's name is less good, but still conveys their role.


No, the color ultramarine is a type of blue. But that's not the only assumption people can make about first hearing about a space marine chapter call the ultramarines.
You learn that about the space wolves after you read their codex/look them up. Seawolves are a term for pirates, and mercenaries have commonly been called and linked to wolves.
But wraith doesn't scream eldar either. You also missed my point. I was referring to the world Iyanden.
They convey the same meaning that Beijing/London/Paris/Harare/Ryhdia does. Outside of knowing those are capital cities, what do they tell you about themselves?
Order of the Argent Shroud makes perfect sense under your criteria. They're an order that venerates a silver (ardent) shroud. Yes. Ardent means silver. Meanwhile blood angels tells us nothing about them, except that they're red (maybe), and probably either pretty bad guys (what I first thought), or good guys. Nothing in the name says that they're better than humans, though it does imply flight (Think Blue Angels). I've already discussed the issues with space wolves.

Again, these are subjective. YOU have an issue with them. The fandom as a whole does not.

--
Edited to get the spoilers right

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/03 17:19:50


 
   
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Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?

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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 17:45:21


 
   
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I think the OP simply hasn't played enough against Tau and Necrons, otherwize these names wouldn't be a problem at all. There's no difference between adeptus astartes and Vior'la Sept, both words only make sense when you know the context of 40K.
A guy in my gaming group knows all the Necron Dynasties, Harlequin masques and Tau septs, but always confuses Iron Warriors with Iron Hands or imperial fists, or World Eaters with Word Bearers. He's simply not interested in the Imperium or Chaos and therefor doesn't know the fluff that much.
   
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Our brains can store a large amount of information. If you don't know what something is, ask your opponent. We all knew nothing about the setting until we informed ourselves.

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the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!


Emporer Children -- Ie, the Sons of the Emporer, followers of the Emporer etc, whcih carries a certain connotation. Cool. The name carries the intended meaning.

Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.

The Farsight Enclave -- Good name for T'au, and I'm sure there's some Taunword for it with too many ' in the name, that is used more in the fluff. But in tabletop terms, is much better than Bor'kan.

As for necrons, yup all their names do exactly the same thing. There's no real difference between all of them, because they all sound vaguely space Egyptian. Again, The Mephrit Sun Dynasty or the Novokh Bringers of Night or whatever would be better than just the Mephrit Dynasty. Which tells me the exact same thing as the Novokh dynasty, and doesn't help.
   
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Pleasestop wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


Luckily, having mis-spent my youth in various D&D campaigns I recognized the derivative nature of the name. Mephits from D&D, mephitis from the dictionary, I could pretty easily assume it had an elemental connotation. I guess I'm just not sure what you're aiming for here, do you want their army traits to be summarized in the name? Not Alpha Legion, but -1 to hit beyond 12" Legion?


"I am familiar with the fluff of the factions that I am familiar with. I would like to complain about the factions that I am not familiar with, because they are not familiar to me."

You can point out established space marine lore that makes absolutely zero sense and would even seem almost purposefully misleading to the uninitiated, but obviously the complaints are going to be about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, and the other factions that only ever exist in the fluff for their own codexes or as meatbags to get blown up by a boltgun.

Emperors Children. How in the flying everloving crap could you ever consider this to be a better naming convention than Bor'kan tau? Yes, it's real words that carry real meaning...but what can only really be understood as the WRONG meaning. And if you're stuck with using regular english words for everything, what do you get?

Deathwatch death guard death korps deathleaper deathmarks deathskullz death masks deathbringers.

Oh, if only we could just pull on the bigboy pants and come up with some simple nordic-coded nonsense words for some of the space wolves' units and equipment. Please, please let me return to the days of Vargyr and Lukas and Krom and Logan Grimnar from this hellscape of murderfang getting a bonus to his murderclaws because of his murderlust special rule, buffed by my wulfen with wolf claws who just hopped out of a stormwolf.

Who is Nemesor Zhandrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty?

Well, just from the name, we see that we've got some egyptian coding going on with the -kh suffixes, "Nemesor" is a long title with that ever-popular booming -or that instantly gives you the idea that it's a position of authority. "Dynasty" tells me they are from an ancient lineage of some kind, and so I'm imagining some kind of pharaoh who is probably old, authoritative, possibly a Lawful Evil type considering -or is often used to denote sinister powerful types, and some kind of royal leader.

Gosh, that's a pretty good read off some nonsense words!


Emporer Children -- Ie, the Sons of the Emporer, followers of the Emporer etc, whcih carries a certain connotation. Cool. The name carries the intended meaning.

Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.

The Farsight Enclave -- Good name for T'au, and I'm sure there's some Taunword for it with too many ' in the name, that is used more in the fluff. But in tabletop terms, is much better than Bor'kan.

As for necrons, yup all their names do exactly the same thing. There's no real difference between all of them, because they all sound vaguely space Egyptian. Again, The Mephrit Sun Dynasty or the Novokh Bringers of Night or whatever would be better than just the Mephrit Dynasty. Which tells me the exact same thing as the Novokh dynasty, and doesn't help.


Yeah. i.e. the sons of the emperor, followers of the emperor, which carries a certain connotation THE OPPOSITE OF WHICH IS TRUE.

Emperor's children, you know, the guys whose color scheme is leopard print and pink, depraved followers of the chaos god of excess, who hate the emperor and want to destroy all he's created.

a name that means "nothing" (though I would argue that Bor'kan T'au helps to evoke the asian coding of the faction through the linguistic pattern) is more useful than a name that is actively misleading to the reader. The old joke:

"who does the vox say is coming through the warp?"

"Sir it's the Word Bearers and the Emperor's Children!"

"Yay, we're saved!"

"no they're depraved demon-worshipping monsters. Also, they're followed by the Deathwatch!"

"oh no, we're double screwed!"

"No, luckily they're on our side. The Flesh Tearers and the Silver Skulls are coming with them! We might be OK!"

That's basically the first thing I learned getting into 40k: Names are basically pointless. But even when they're technically meaningless...they're not.

We talked about Nemesor Zhandrek. How about Vargard Obyron?

You know these characters are a pair, and because "Vargard" has a word that sounds like "Guard" and "Nemesor" sounds a lot like "Emperor" you can easily distinguish which of the pair is the bodyguard/subordinate and which is the general/leader he's protecting. The fact that you've selected JUST the dynasty subfactions for your complaints and not...the whole rest of the necron faction pretty much belies the fact that almost everything in the necron faction, including the named characters, give you easy clues as to who they are and what they do.

Imotekh the Stormlord. Orikan The Diviner. Anrakyr The Traveler. Nemesor Zhandrekh and Vargard Obyron. Trayzn The Infinite. Illuminor Szeras. All of these names give you easy clues as to who these guys are and what their shtick is.

Chapter Master Marneus Calgar. Chapter Master Vulkan. Chapter Master Dante. WHUNK, HUAAAH. GABRIEL ANGELOS, CHAPTER MASTER OF THE BLOOD RAVENS.

None of this tells me anything except that they are all chapter masters.

Does this mean they are baddy bad nonsense names and we should petition GW to rename Marneus Calgar to Smurfitus Amadeeamadie?


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Pleasestop wrote:
Bor'kan T'au - not a real word, carries no real meaning besides "Space aliens" and what not. It's not a good name.


You realize we could do this all day long for dozens of game systems, right? Literally, pick one. All. Day. Long. I mean do you understand the concept of world-building, creating fictional backgrounds? Do you understand why Tolkien created an entire language for elves? Talk about time spent creating words that don't mean anything to anyone.

'Greetings, Starfighter. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-dan Armada.' wtf is Ko-dan, it doesn't make sense.



'That does not make sense!'

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I love that you chose the meme where the guy is literally saying

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk."

God its so MEANINGLESS, these WORDS! what stupid terrible thing is this from, these terrible nonsense words!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 19:13:26


 
   
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Pleasestop wrote:

Real words convey meaning -- gibberish doesn't.


In the wise words of a certain god of thunder- "All words are made up."

the_scotsman wrote:

The ONLY REASON you know the "Emperor's Children" are pink, flamboyant, perfection-obsessed followers of the god of excess is because that's been jammed into your head.


Story time- Many years ago my local GW put in their cabinet a Defiler of the EC legion. It was labelled "Emperor's Children Defiler". Only when a parent asked what one of those was did the staff realise their embarrassing mistake that perhaps it sounds very NSFW/NSFL to the untrained ear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/03 19:36:26


 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

Pretty sure the Emperor's Children is meant to be ironic, and to highlight that a loyalist chapter fell from grace.
So yeah, it does make sense, if you know the background and get what they were going for.

GW have never been good at names, and its gotten worse with their insecurities over copyright. To be fair though, coming up with good names is hard, especially if you have to constantly come up with new ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:

Story time- Many years ago my local GW put in their cabinet a Defiler of the EC legion. It was labelled "Emperor's Children Defiler". Only when a parent asked what one of those was did the staff realise their embarrassing mistake that perhaps it sounds very NSFW/NSFL to the untrained ear.


Is that true? I really want it to be true

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/03 20:14:43


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100% true. The manager immediately replaced it with his DG land raider.

This was the same EC army that had Haagen-daz slogans on the tanks (“pleasure is the path to joy”) from an ad at the time.



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 Orodhen wrote:
I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem.

The T'au Septs and Necron Dynasties are proper nouns, so are not exactly directly translatable.
Demonstrably untrue.

  • Shovah = Farsight
  • Shassera = Shadowsun
  • Var = Brightsword
  • Aloh = Coldwind


  • Hell, we don't even know the "real" T'au names for some characters in the setting, like Puretide. It would be the easiest thing in the world to say that the Sa'cea Sept translates to "Starfang Sept", so named for the vicious beasts that once roamed its surface as one of the first conquests of the young T'au Empire. And for all that some posters have claimed I only think the White Scars is a better name than the Klsdmfwnefjkwe because the White Scars have been around longer, I'm prepared to bet that the Starfang Sept would get a lot more play in the background, too.

     Frozen Ocean wrote:
    I'm just annoyed about the change of Tau to T'au.
    B'ut do'esn't it mak'e it l'ook c'ool an'd al'ien?

    Yo'u hea'rd t'he t'hre'ad: t'he m'ore i'ncom'pre'hensib'le so'meth'ing is, t'he m'ore re'ali'sti'c it s'eems!
       
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    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.
       
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    Bergen

    The Necron dynasties are inspiered by egyptian sounding names.

    If you want more experience with alien aliens, watch Solaris or STALKER.

    I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

    Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

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    on the forum. Obviously

    STALKER doesn't have aliens, it has mutants. From Earth. And they are named things like "Bloodsucker" and "Controller". The only unusual name is Snork, and that's short for Snorkel, referring to the gasmasks they wear.

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     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
    Pretty sure the Emperor's Children is meant to be ironic, and to highlight that a loyalist chapter fell from grace.
    So yeah, it does make sense, if you know the background and get what they were going for.
    Exactly - if you know the background.

    If you put no time in to actually hearing and normalising the language/culture of the alien races on 40k, of course you won't understand or recognise them.
    Same as Adeptus Astartes - okay, "adeptus" tells us they're good, or specialised at something, "astartes" - what on earth is that meant to mean? Some kind of Mesopotamian goddess? So, the Adeptus Astartes must actually be devotees of the goddess Astarte?

    Context - if you research just a little bit, things aren't nearly as daunting.

    Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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    Dandelion wrote:
    Not sure why you're going after Tau planet names like Bork'an or Sac'ea for being meaningless, while things like Cadia or Tallarn are a thing.


    Scalex VI and Omnicide are my favourite nonsense planet names.



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    Vigo. Spain.

    Until this point in time I had never realized that the imperial guard vehicles have names of relatively similar monsters(Chimera, Basilisk, Wyvern, Manticore)

    Wow. And it was in front of me for years.

     Crimson Devil wrote:

    Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

    ERJAK wrote:
    Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

     
       
     
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