Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think Boyz need a buff at all. I *do* wish there was a reason to actually take Big Shoota and Rokkit Boyz, though. At the end of the day, you're spending extra points and not getting a whole lot in return for the investment. I feel like they coulda just... not included that option and the end result would have been the same.

Kinda wish Boyz were still 6ppm, of course, but at 7 they ain't really overpriced either. Does tend to get expensive once you hit that third mob though.

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

SemperMortis wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)

Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.

So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.

Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.

Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?

It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?

The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...

Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.

SemperMortis and I got our wires crossed just a bit. I asked why a unit with a 36" gun would be advancing in a way that didn't make it obvious that I genuinely didn't know. There isn't a dedicated Ork player in my local group so as far as I knew Orks were still doing the "despite the fluff we're actually really good shooting army" thing.

Then I pointed out how good that gun would be in a Marine army as a dig at how bad Marines are right now specifically because Ork players consider it a bad weapon. If a trash tier Ork weapon would be good in a Marine army how bad does that make the Marine weapon options look? Semper didn't catch that and defended why he thinks the Big Shoota is a bad weapon. I see no reason to argue since he answered the question I had and kinda supported my point about Marines in the process.

 Argive wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)

Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.

So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.

Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.

Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?

It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?

The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...

Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.

Point of this thread "Units you Like but that don't see Action" I modified that to be Models since there isn't a Big Shoota unit as much as a model. I LOVE how the model looks but I never take them because they are utter trash. Adding to that, they would have a purpose in a mob if they weren't worse across the board then simply adding more shoota boyz. Being able to plop a mob of 10 boyz with a Big Shoota onto an objective and letting them camp out would be a useful tactic, especially if they allowed you to take all 3 heavy weapons without taking the additional 20 boyz.

On the subject of Boyz being good...Yes they are ok, they are absolutely not the strongest troop choice in the game by a long shot, that title is firmly held by Imperial Guard infantry squads, there are also a few other troop choices I would argue are either as good or better then boyz.

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis and I got our wires crossed just a bit. I asked why a unit with a 36" gun would be advancing in a way that didn't make it obvious that I genuinely didn't know. There isn't a dedicated Ork player in my local group so as far as I knew Orks were still doing the "despite the fluff we're actually really good shooting army" thing.

Then I pointed out how good that gun would be in a Marine army as a dig at how bad Marines are right now specifically because Ork players consider it a bad weapon. If a trash tier Ork weapon would be good in a Marine army how bad does that make the Marine weapon options look? Semper didn't catch that and defended why he thinks the Big Shoota is a bad weapon. I see no reason to argue since he answered the question I had and kinda supported my point about Marines in the process.

I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.

I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?

The forgeworld legio custodes galatus contemptor dread. Such a cool model, but it unfortunately falls short compared to the achillus and especially the telemon on the tabletop.

Understood.
Its imiliar to the problem I have with fusion guns on storm guardians. Should a 12" gun goin otn a T3 5+ infantry model cost nearly double the price of the infantry model? I dont think so... If you put it on a bs2 biker warlord, the weapon has a totaly different value as you will actualy get to use it. Unfortunately any fix in order to determine gear costs in relation to the unit said gear is going on, would just create more bloat and rules and people seem to hate rules...Then again if you just had different point values for option in the individual codex entries rather than a long 2 page unwieldly list of weapons and their points that would be a fix IMO. But what do I know...

I think the rules team have been gravitating towards having less individualism and more samesy wholesale units for purposes of easier balance. For example if a Gun A on a specific model is casuing problems resulting in imbalance, then GW knee jerks jack up the price of Gun A affecting all the other entries in the codex, rather than deal with the entry that is making the gun too efficient.

Well that went off track lol.
So how about those raptors eh ? I would love to see more of them on the table.

SemperMortis wrote:
I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.

I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?

The way you answered came across as defensive (that's how I read it at least, and how Argive seems to have read it as well), I figured there had to be a misunderstanding there somewhere because why get defensive if I'm not disagreeing on whether the Big Shoota is a bad weapon? Easy mistake for either of us to make though, we still haven't got a comprehensive enough set of punctuation marks despite English having been a tonal language for centuries.

On the other question, it would entirely depend on what I wanted the squad to do. On a squad I expect to close with the enemy yes the Stormbolter is better. On a squad that I expect to try to avoid melee then it's only 10 S4s (Bolter Drill only works when stationary) vs 6 S5s with enough range to play keep-away with fast melee units. The Big Shoota would be better there.

In general out of all the places I can take a Stormbolter on Marines there are quite a few where I'd spend the extra 3 points for a Big Shoota instead if I had the option.

Doesn't apply. I like this model. I'm going to play it. Oversimple maybe but I play for fun, and to enjoy, and cool models are, for me, part of that.

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I understood the question which is why I answered it in depth. Orkz are not a good shooting army honestly, they are a Combined Arms force at best, especially after the Loota bomb got nerfed. Besides SSAG relic Big Mek ork shooting has Mek Gunz which are decent but fairly easy to kill and the only reliably cheap option has a 50% or less chance to wound its targets of choice, Vehicles.

I doubt a SM would take a Big Shoota for 5pts if it likewise meant that the Marine player reduced his BS skill to 5+. I mean hell, even if it didn't reduce the skill to 5+ you can just take a Stormbolters for 2pts which puts out more shots now at 24'. I know you can't do it on tac squads, but you can take 5 Stormbolters for the same cost as 2 Big Shootas, which would you rather have? 20 shots at 24' or 6 shots at 36 ?

The way you answered came across as defensive (that's how I read it at least, and how Argive seems to have read it as well), I figured there had to be a misunderstanding there somewhere because why get defensive if I'm not disagreeing on whether the Big Shoota is a bad weapon? Easy mistake for either of us to make though, we still haven't got a comprehensive enough set of punctuation marks despite English having been a tonal language for centuries.

On the other question, it would entirely depend on what I wanted the squad to do. On a squad I expect to close with the enemy yes the Stormbolter is better. On a squad that I expect to try to avoid melee then it's only 10 S4s (Bolter Drill only works when stationary) vs 6 S5s with enough range to play keep-away with fast melee units. The Big Shoota would be better there.

In general out of all the places I can take a Stormbolter on Marines there are quite a few where I'd spend the extra 3 points for a Big Shoota instead if I had the option.

True, but in the example you give you want to keep the entire unit out of combat which makes sense, so the extra 12' of range is really important and since you can take 5 Marines, (1 sgt and 1 heavy weapon) you would have fairly good ratio's with that, for Orkz though you have to take 10 boyz to unlock 1 heavy weapon and their guns at best are 18' so dropping 10 orkz off somewhere to babysit a single Big Shoota, or 20 to babysit 2 doesn't make much sense. On top of that, Ork boyz only really excel in close combat so they want to be advancing the whole time which basically makes Big Shoota boyz useless.

On a related note, the only time I actually take Big shoota's anymore at all is in Min/max Kommando squads and only in fluffy games. dropping off 3 squads of 5 Kommandos with 2 Big shootas each is funny. Leaving them on an objective is ....slightly annoying, not exactly hard to get rid of still since even in cover they only have a 4+ save and morale becomes an issue.

Pshh,,,, 1/2 the Tyranids codex, been like that for 6yrs+

Leman Russ Vanquishers. They should be one of the best AT units in the game, or at least one of the best for their price. In a galaxy full of energy based AT weapons, they are one of the few purely kinetic penetrators in the game. They are just bad, and have been for a long time. They used to be ok with FW rules and their dreaded beasthunter shells, but that was a long time ago.

At least you can use the models for the relic cannon I guess.

Kroot. I loved the idea of Kroot mercenaries and tried to field some alongside my Guard but they just melt away so easily under bolter fire and never really did anything.

 Brotherjulian wrote:
Kroot. I loved the idea of Kroot mercenaries and tried to field some alongside my Guard but they just melt away so easily under bolter fire and never really did anything.

Yeah, they're in a really tough spot this edition. Not cheap enough to really be an effective screen, not tough or scary enough in melee to be an actual deterrent to enemy CC units, and not enough dakka to be skirmishers. There really should be more synergy between the shaper and regular Kroot Carnivore squads, I feel GW initially wanted to expand on Tau auxiliaries, but ended up going the "safe" route of BIGGER MECHS instead.

Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.

BUUUT they're squishy, 5 points per model and outshone by Termagants in so many ways it hurts. CC wise Genestealers outshine them by far per point and have access to so much more support, Terms shoot and are cheap to swarm in bodies and other cheap units make them look awful (Hell, the only thing they kinda beat in Stormguardians but that's like beating Stevie Wonder at darts, no one is going to give you a damn award!)

I'd love to see the Monolith return to the glory days of Oldcrons.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.

Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.

At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.

Aspect Warriors, beyond the OP deathstar-du-jour (Was Spectres, then Reapers, then Spears).

Dire Avengers are one of my favorite units.
Swooping Hawks are so much fun and look great (especially if you use Scourge feathered wings for your Exarch)!
Scorpions are scads of fun, if you can get them into something they can bully.
Banshees are a great disruption unit. And charging first with Banshees then everyone else (even the Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks) is just so... great.
3-man Spear teams don't see much use, but are a super fast skirmish unit - can't hold a line, won't crack a CC threat, but can hit where they want when they want.
Spectres are overcosted, but have some nasty guns and attract a lot of ineffective firepower.
Fire Dragons are always good for when some hard target must die.

And Asurmen and the center of the force... Overcosted but so much fun.

I use Vespid Stingwings in my current T'au Empire list. Just a unit of 4. They get me points and don't cost much to get them.

Monoliths: My current Necron list hasn't been beaten yet and i use two Monoliths in it.

I'd really like to be able to use my Stompa and my Burna boyz.

My Lychguard and Flayed Ones too.

And I'd really like to get a Monolith, but yeah...

The Newman wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.

Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.

At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.

Oh same I agree, I still field my hormas and warriors. Nothing looks quite as good as 3 carnifexs surrounded by over 90 gaunts!

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Hormagaunts. They ARE the quintessential nid unit, fast, alien looking and all chitin and hunger. They are there to drown enemies in hordes of bodies and talons.

Hormagaunts and Warriors are my two favorite models in that range, and apparently neither of them are in a good place.

At least for me picking a faction came down to what models I wanted to paint the most (arguably not a terrible way to make that choice) and Warriors were definitely in the running.

Oh same I agree, I still field my hormas and warriors. Nothing looks quite as good as 3 carnifexs surrounded by over 90 gaunts!

I wish my choice had worked out as well for me. I have a very hard time putting my Centurions in the field, they're sinfully overcosted.

Stompa - GW has kept it extremely inefficient in points to the point that for several editions no wit is in the running for most overcosted unit in the game. currently a stompa can lose to a 350 point imperial knight. and it basically cannot beat a castellan or valliant both of which cost less than a stompa.

legion of the damned - super cool models, they are really awesome lore wise but on the tabletop they have never managed to really be worth it.

nob bikers - in 5th edition they were strong but mostly due to the exploitation of wound shenanigins. GW decided they need to for some reason continue to pay a pennance for that for 3 editions now being overcosted

ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost.

drop pods - i was at first glad they were dead as they have been good for 3 editions now, but GW overcosted them by so much outside a few people trying them (and never using them again) I never see them in 8th. I even tried them and realized just how much of a point sink it is for a deep strike. the previous 35 poitns was to cheap, but 85 is def to much since it jsut sits there now with a storm bolter after droppign off a unit. probably worth around 50 points for the pod then 2 for the stormbolter which should be optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Lets see....I play competitive orkz so this might take a bit.

Killa Kanz: overpriced, completely lacking any meaningful dakka and suck in CC

DeffDreadz: Over priced, no dakka worth taking, are alright in CC but you have to 1: survive to get their and 2: pay through the nose for those handful of attacks.

Burnaboyz: At this point I don't know what to do with them. Over priced, basically worthless. If you can get them into range you are either in a vehicle or the luckiest SOB in existence.

Trukkz: Over priced, extremely fragile and once they drop off their cargo, which is rare as it is, they serve no purpose except to eat overwatch.

Nobz: Anything a nob can do a Boy can do for cheaper. In a unit by themselves they are a priority target due to their price and their relatively good CC abilities.

Warbikers: Over priced and under powered. You NEVER want them in CC because they are just boyz at 3x the price and their dakka, while impressive for 21pts is still rather lackluster all things considered. Worst of all, they are 4+ saves so Over charging Plasma instant kills them and allows for no saving throw. Thank god plasma isn't popular....

Deff Koptas: All the same problems as Warbikers exacerbated by being even more expensive.

All the new Buggies: Over priced and lacking a true purpose

Stompa: about 40-50% over priced, 3 times the cost of a knight while only being better then 1.

Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

I'll leave it there for now.

dual choppa nobz are one of the best units on the codex. mix in a few big choppas, if you haev points to spare consider giving the boss nob a power claw but not required.

nobz vs boys add a 4+ armor save, 1w, +1str, +1 attack all for twice the cost of a boy (5 nobz 70 vs 10 boys 70) dual choppas means you lose shooting (which was terrible anyway) but onyl lose 1 attack vs 2 boys but at Strength 5 meaning wounding most infantry on 3's and vehicles on 5's and the bonus of 4+ means they last longer.

throw multiple units in the same transport and be sure o throw an ammo runt to eat expolosive casualties/wounds (oh no you overcharged plasma and killed my... ammo runt)

No one would use pods at 50. Maybe 25. Maybe.

Martel732 wrote:
No one would use pods at 50. Maybe 25. Maybe.

25 would be way to low. heck at 35 they were always to good for what they did. I just think GW overcorrected in their adjustment. being able to pop in and combi melta a thing down with sternguard is def worth ~50 point cost to entry imo

They were not too good at 35. Thats a fallacy. Now in 8th, theres nothing even worth putting in them. I can tell you i wouldnt use them at 25.

Melta is terrible in 8th. Its not worth anything to me to try to mobilize and overcosted unit with melta.

I might not even use them if they were free because the units that go in them are so bad.

The Leman Russ Vanquisher/Exterminator/Eradicator. I like the looks and the general fluff idea behind each, but they cannot perform that way in the crunch. Would be nice, if the Exterminator would really be faster or in any way more effective against flyers than the other russes.

For similar reasons: the Stygies Tank Destroyer and Demolisher as well as the Valdor.

All four of the Greater Daemons.
I never see anyone using them.

stroller wrote:
Doesn't apply. I like this model. I'm going to play it. Oversimple maybe but I play for fun, and to enjoy, and cool models are, for me, part of that.

Preach, brother.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
...ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost...

Marine bikes are down to 23 points and they get Stable Platform as far as Bolter Drill is concerned, I'd say they're actually not in a terrible spot. Four Bolter shots isn't great, but they're more points efficient than a lot of other things in the Marine codex and they can do it on the move.

The Newman wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
...ork and space marine regular bikers - neither is really worth it. the +1t and W is nice as is the speed of a bike but GW attached points to both that make them of dubious value. They work as objective grabbers, and hte spae marines can bring some plasma at speed which is nice but still not enough for the cost...

Marine bikes are down to 23 points and they get Stable Platform as far as Bolter Drill is concerned, I'd say they're actually not in a terrible spot. Four Bolter shots isn't great, but they're more points efficient than a lot of other things in the Marine codex and they can do it on the move.

yea, ork bikes are not terrible either anymore but neither is what I would call good honestly I think 20 points a bike is about right. At 20 each they might see the occasional placement on a competitive list, for space marines +1 T +1W and extra bolter for ~160% the cost of a tac marine (which also needs adjusting but thats another topic altogether)

My most favorite HQ models are equipped with twin lightning claws. They look so badass, but I would always want a combi weapon over that second claw on the tabletop, and Damage 1 melee isnt that great.